Theory: Nohadon (WoR Spoilers)

[Patrick Star]

Hi all, this is my first post here, so please be nice.

 

A couple of signing questions got me thinking about Nohadon.

 

First, Nutiket Aiel asked:

 

 

Q:  "Nohadon is still alive, right?"

 

A:  RAFO (By my judgement, Brandon seemed both amused and surprised by the question)

 

at this link: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7051-philadelphia-wor-signing-reports/ 

 

Also, Sanderson RAFO'd EHyde when asked whether Nohadon was a Bondsmith.

 

I have a very blunt (and speculation-heavy) theory about the whereabouts of Nohadon.  

 

I believe that Nohadon has gained Heraldic powers from his part in the founding of the Knights radiant, and drew the attention of Odium.  After this, he was taken to Braize to be tortured with the rest of the Heralds, and remained there with Taln after the breaking of the Oathpact.

 

In addition, I believe that Nohadon is the Taln impostor in Words of Radiance (if "Taln" is in fact not Taln).

 

I have very flimsy, mostly circumstantial evidence for this (and some of it is complete speculation), but I believe that it's completely possible.

 

We know that:

 

• "Taln" was not startled by Shallan's lightweaving, and remembered Ishi founding the Knights.  If Nohadon was the imposter, he would definitely remember the founding and powers of the Radiants and would likely be used to dealing with them.
• The blade Dalinar took from "Taln" was not an honorblade.  If Nohadon is standing in for Taln, he would not have an honorblade.  It is possible that Nohadon holding the shardblade would bring the spren back to life more than a human would.  This could allow the blade to have a limited shape-shifting capability while Nohadon is holding it.  Once he drops it, the blade reverts back into its original appearance.  The blade was not cataloged because Nohadon still had it while in damnation.
• "Taln's" mantra is seemingly automated, and he's completely mad.  While Nohadon might have the powers of a Herald, I highly doubt that he would be able to withstand the torture as effectively as one of them.  It's possible that Odium recognized this and tortured Nohadon to think that he was and view himself as Taln, and sent him to Roshar as a mad Taln in order to cause humanity to weaken itself.  After all, the Sons of Honor think that creating a desolation will bring back the Heralds.  What better way to encourage them to send an impostor that looks like, talks like, and has the powers of the real Herald?
• This desolation is different.  In the chapter 68 epigraph/death rattle from the Way of Kings: “They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied. The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.”  It is possible that since the Listeners and Sons of Honor are creating their own desolation, Odium is not bound by the Oathpack to send the real Taln to Roshar and prepare humanity.  Also, we know that Hoid wants Jasnah to find God in the "hearts of men."  The heart of the Everstorm could be mankind, as the Sons of Honor goaded the listeners in seeking Odium.  This could be a coincidence, but I think that it lends a shred of credence to my theory.

I think that the largest hole in the theory is the cleaver-like shardblade.  I know that Nohadon would have lived before the Recreance, and likely would not have had an opportunity to obtain the blade.  Maybe Odium gave it to him?  I'll have to think about this part.

 

Based on the evidence, it's fairly conclusive that Nohadon is not dead and that he had/has some type of Surgebinding or other magical powers.  The rest of the theory is mostly speculation backed by a few coincidences.

 

What do you guys think?  Is there a more realistic or viable theory for where Nohadon is?  Am I missing something?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Patrick Star

[Levian]

Out of curiosity, did I miss something important about Nohadon? What was shown in either book that would make somebody even consider that he may not be dead? Personally I never thought of him as anything more than someone who brought a kingdom together. Although that DOES sound something like a certain bondsmith we know. 

 

I assumed Taln was on repeat because his mind snapped from torture and he was just repeating what he would have said in previous Desolations. But from the WoB we've seen, something is definitely wrong. Maybe he bonded with an Odium spren in a way similar to the Nahel bond, whether intentional or not, and it is trying to control his thoughts and actions similar to the Parshendi, but his will is strong enough that he is fighting it.

 

I like the theory, and the WoB definitely suggests there's something to it. But some of the points you listed make me question. 

 

First, the "Taln's" blade. We've been shown that Shardblades always vanish when dropped, unless specifically willed not to. But Honorblades stay when dropped unless willed to vanish (I think). If what we originally saw was a Shardblade, it wouldn't have stayed there for somebody to take and bond. I don't think you CAN bond somebody else's blade without them relinquishing it first. So to me this seems like what we originally saw had to have been an Honorblade for it to not vanish. I personally don't have any theories about the blade changing or possible Taln swaps, but your theory about Nohadon seems as likely as any.

 

Second, the comment about Lightweaving. Now, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as probably everybody else on these forums, but the Desolation we see the Heralds giving up the Oathpact was the last Desolation between then and our current point in the story. I don't remember what Taln said exactly, but he was sort of surprised by Shallan Lightweaving. He knew what it was but if I remember correctly, by what he said and his reaction there were no Lightweavers around that he had ever seen, commenting about how... someone who I forget the name of (Ishi?)... was successful in founding them. Now this strikes me as VERY odd. I highly doubt after the last Desolation, any of the Heralds went about recruiting or making the order of Lightweavers. Which means they were probably founded before the last Desolation, which is something Taln should know about isn't it? Which - unless I'm missing something - is some sort of evidence that the madman isn't Taln, but rather someone who is knowledgeable of the KR. I'm not sure, I'm probably missing something big here. 

 

Anyways, I like this theory. I'm not sure how I feel about Nohadon being Heraldic, but maybe he is just a KR, a Bondsmith like you said. 

[Wit]

Dalinar met Nohadon in one of his flashbacks, or at least he thinks it was Nohadon, so if Nohadon is the Taln impostor then Dalinar would have recognized him, no?

[Levian]

Ah, very good point Wit. So the simplest idea is that Nohadon is not the Taln imposter. The second is that Dalinar didn't actually meet Nohadon, which at this point doesn't seem likely. 

 

I still like the idea that Nohadon is alive and possibly a Bondsmith though.

[Crysanja]

hmm did this sword have a gem?

i think the gem thing is kind of new? and didnt exist before the last Desolation.

 

if it has no gem it would suggest its either a Honorblade, a blade of a living KR, or a very old/odd Shardblade, which cant disapear.

[Wit]

Yes, the gem is a post recreance addition, to allow the summoning and disappearing of the blades. Nice catch on the possibility of it being a very old shardblade is it doesn't have a gem, hadn't thought of that. 

[Crysanja]

uh but i think i remember Dalinar summoning the blade later in the book.

or there are two different blades.

 

sorry

[Khyrindor]

What Wit said about Dalinar meeting him does kind of put a spin on things. I like the Idea that he is still alive though. Remember what Gavilar said about "You must find the most important words a man can say" and Dalinar couldn't find out what he was talking about beyond that Nohadon wrote it? Makes me think Gavilar had some idea as to his whereabouts.

 

The WoB makes it seem like he is still alive, and the only thing I can think of that he isn't is that he decided to do a bit of trolling. We have to ask ourselves (and maybe Aiel) if we have met him and what lead him to believe this.

 

Upvote!

[Patrick Star]

Dalinar met Nohadon in one of his flashbacks, or at least he thinks it was Nohadon, so if Nohadon is the Taln impostor then Dalinar would have recognized him, no?

 

I don't think that this is nearly as much of a problem with the theory as the situation with the changed blades.

 

Keep in mind that Dalinar has proven to be atrocious at reading people.  First, he trusted Sadeas in the Way of Kings and completely misunderstood what Honor was telling him to do.  Second, he had the world's only Windrunner as his bodyguard and failed to see it.  

 

Let's remember that Kaladin created an elite spear team out of a group of slaves. This was done while having to run straight at the Parshendi every other day, caring for the injured bridgemen, and taking the wounded back to camp.  Don't forget that the guy cracked the back of a set of shardplate with a flying (literally) sidekick and then sent that same shardbearer running out of the arena.  And how about that shardhelm boxing glove? He also sent the Assassin in White running back to Kharbranth and survived a 100 foot fall in the process. And of course led his 30-man squad to extract 2653 soldiers that were surrounded by thousands of Parshendi and fought off the shardbearer that had given Dalinar a thorough spanking.  After all this, Dalinar still had no idea that anything might be abnormally special with Kaladin.

 

It took falling into the chasms, slaying a chasmfiend, surviving a highstorm in the chasms, and finding his way back to camp with Adolin's fiance for Dalinar to realize that Kaladin was a radiant.  And at the same time, how did he not think that there was anything special about Shallan?

 

My point is that Dalinar really couldn't tell at all.  If Nohadon is the Taln imposter, he'd just need a beard and a different haircut for Dalinar to overlook the resemblance as a coincidence.

[Numb]

I don't see how Dalinar being bad a reading people is the same as Dalinar being blind? Seems like you just saying Dalinar is a bad judge of character(He instantly trusted Kal though) but then you apply that reasoning to him not being able to tell two people apart. The two aren't even related. Dalinar's main problem is that he believes that others have the same goals as him. 

As for Shallan, well she hides from even herself. Kind of hard to get a read on someone when they lie to everyone including themselves.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Numb

[Lightflame]

Not that I think "Taln" is actually Nohadon, but it was never conclusively stated that the dude Dalinar met was Nohadon. Dalinar has a gut feeling that tells him it's Nohadon, and the guy made the saying that Dalinar uses, but aside from that we can't be completely sure that it was, in fact, Nohadon. I think that something more is going on here, and I'll need to ask Brandon some questions about it.

 

However, I wonder if the answer to our riddle is that Nohadon is actually a title passed down between multiple people. After all, it wasn't Bajerden's real name.

[EHyde]

I was the one who asked the question about Nohadon being a bondsmith. I also asked a bit about the in-world Way of Kings and when I said "It was written over 4500 years ago, right?" he answered that it was written by Nohadon and gave a rather sneaky look. I hadn't even considered the idea that Nohadon might still be alive, but this could support that idea (or the idea that Nohadon is a title that's passed down).

 

What made me wonder about if he was a bondsmith was, we know that surgebinding and the Nahel bond at one point did not require the Oaths, and we know that the Oaths are at least assumed to come from Nohadon's writings. But spren requiring the oaths to form the Nahel bond doesn't seem like something they just decided to do, it seems like it's a magical requirement. So something or someone actually changed the nature of the Nahel bond. And Dalinar as a bondsmith is bonded to the Stormfather who seems to have at least some measure of authority over what bonds lesser spren make, and well, bondsmith is right there in the name, so I thought, maybe bondsmiths can actually change how the Nahel bond works. But I knew Brandon would never answer that so I thought asking if Nohadon was a bondsmith might get me some support for this theory in a roundabout way. 

[Wit]

I don't think that this is nearly as much of a problem with the theory as the situation with the changed blades....

 

What you're saying here is all about his ability to judge a person's character, as Numb previously stated, I don't see anything in there that suggests that he has bad eyesight or poor memory (other than his wife that is ). Regardless of his ability to judge people, he would recognize Nohadon if he saw him again. 

 

And remember, this isn't someone Dalinar sees as a random bridgeboy or a girl who walks into his life claiming to be his dead niece's ward, he would need some convincing to realize that they are anything special. This is Nohadon, the man Dalinar has more or less idolized since he started turning his life around after his brother's death. If he thought he saw him in a vision then I seriously doubt he would not be able to recognize his face again.

[Chlehrma]

Nohadon was a title and I can not find anything in the text to justify the belief that the original lives--though I guess he could be a spren (the embodiment of the beliefs about Nohadon much like the Stormfather is the embodiment of the beliefs regarding Honor.) Regardless, It is likely that the Nohadon who wrote the way of kings is dead.

Having said that, it is possible that somewhere on Roshar there exists a person who fills the same role as the one upon whom the title was bestowed since Nohadon was a title. For all we know, it may have become the title for the leader of the KR after the original Nohadon wrote the Way of Kings. If that is true, the Dalinar would be the new Nohadon.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Lightflame]

Okay, I can say with near certainty that "Taln" isn't Nohadon.

 

Brandon confirmed that the "Taln" at the end of TWoK is the "Taln" in WoR.

 

Nohadon was a Radiant.

 

A few years back, he answered a question of mine, telling me that we haven't seen any Radiants in the modern parts of TWoK. Link

So therefore we haven't seen Nohadon in TWoK. He can't be "Taln", then.

[Wit]

How do we know that Nohadon was a radiant? Some WoB? Or was it in the books somewhere and I'm forgetting stuff?

[Argent]

We don't. We kind of assume, because it looks like we have him to thank for the Nahel bond - though he might have had some help from Ishar...

[Levian]

I'm really liking this theory of Nohadon being a bondsmith and being behind the requirements spren have for the KR. I wonder if there's any possible way it could be worded so we don't get a RAFO, but somehow I doubt it 

[Moogle]

We don't. We kind of assume, because it looks like we have him to thank for the Nahel bond - though he might have had some help from Ishar...

 

I don't even know if we can make this assumption. Dalinar doesn't note that Nohadon's eyes are particularly pale, Nohadon never talks to a spren during the vision, he talks about "your Surgebinders" to Dalinar, he refers to Soulcasters separate from Surgebinders (implying he hasn't a lot of knowledge of how the Orders work internally)...

 

I lean slightly towards Nohadon not being a Radiant, though I grant it's possible. The most compelling evidence is when he says "The responsibility of what we've been given--whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond--needs to make us better.", and I don't think it's enough to peg him as a Radiant. The fact that the Knights were Ishar's and not Nohadon's according to "Taln", I think, is probably a hint that Nohadon didn't found the Radiants, they just used his book on philosophy to guide them in making the First Ideal.

 

Perhaps he became a Radiant after Dalinar's vision as he tried to unite the entire land. That would be when people would begin to perceive him as a uniter, which would attract a Bondsmith spren. We really don't have much to go on.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Argent]

Actually, I find it possible that both Ishar and Nohadon founded the Radiants. Ishar - according to Taln's words to Shallan - was interested in finding a way to preserve all the knowledge humanity lost in each Desolation, and his solution was, presumably, the Orders. I imagine he envisioned them as collectors of knowledge and teachers much more than warriors. Kind of like ardents, now that I think about it. Fast forward some time, and Nohadon could've figured out a way to militarize those orders, turn them into something much more powerful - warriors, healers, spies, suppliers, etc.

[Numb]

Actually, I find it possible that both Ishar and Nohadon founded the Radiants. Ishar - according to Taln's words to Shallan - was interested in finding a way to preserve all the knowledge humanity lost in each Desolation, and his solution was, presumably, the Orders. I imagine he envisioned them as collectors of knowledge and teachers much more than warriors. Kind of like ardents, now that I think about it. Fast forward some time, and Nohadon could've figured out a way to militarize those orders, turn them into something much more powerful - warriors, healers, spies, suppliers, etc.

 

I think you are on the right track but maybe Nohadon's involvement is slightly different. We know he wrote WotK which contains the ideals and oaths of the Radiant. Before the Radiants the Surgebinders seemed to be out of control(Judging by Dalinar's vision). Let's just look at the Honorspren for a moment. If Spren can be viewed as ideas given form then the question is how does an Honorspren know what is right? Is it based on what the person bonded to them perceives as right or wrong? I think this may have been a fundamental problem with Surgebinders before the Radiants and what Nohadon's involvement with the forming of the Radiants is.

 

Ishar wanted a way to preserve knowledge where as Nohadon wanted a way for Surgebinders to become more than what they were. It seems like together their collective ideas formed the Radiants. Now there was a way to preserve knowledge and the spren had a method(The oaths) to make sure their gifts were not abused. It also makes sense that once the Radiants were in place they would naturally gravitate towards certain roles. 

[Levian]

Ishar wanted a way to preserve knowledge where as Nohadon wanted a way for Surgebinders to become more than what they were. It seems like together their collective ideas formed the Radiants. Now there was a way to preserve knowledge and the spren had a method(The oaths) to make sure their gifts were not abused. It also makes sense that once the Radiants were in place they would naturally gravitate towards certain roles. 

 

I really like this idea. It always had me curious about how knowledge could be stored, in a way that couldn't be destroyed by a Desolation. The simple answer is Spren! Even if all the KR die the spren would most likely live on, as we only know of them "dying" when they abandon their oaths. The spren could preserve this knowledge for future KR, although it takes a while for them to regain their memories, and Sly seems to be a bit... less knowledgable... than the rest of the spren we've seen bonded. Possibly because she is so new to the Physical realm compared to them though.

[Numb]

Jasnah mentions in the epilogue that the highspren have records and some of them may not be useful as things have changed this time so I'm starting to feel this may hold some weight. 

[grinachu]

I don't even know if we can make this assumption. Dalinar doesn't note that Nohadon's eyes are particularly pale, Nohadon never talks to a spren during the vision, he talks about "your Surgebinders" to Dalinar, he refers to Soulcasters separate from Surgebinders (implying he hasn't a lot of knowledge of how the Orders work internally)...

 

I lean slightly towards Nohadon not being a Radiant, though I grant it's possible. The most compelling evidence is when he says "The responsibility of what we've been given--whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond--needs to make us better.", and I don't think it's enough to peg him as a Radiant. The fact that the Knights were Ishar's and not Nohadon's according to "Taln", I think, is probably a hint that Nohadon didn't found the Radiants, they just used his book on philosophy to guide them in making the First Ideal.

 

Perhaps he became a Radiant after Dalinar's vision as he tried to unite the entire land. That would be when people would begin to perceive him as a uniter, which would attract a Bondsmith spren. We really don't have much to go on.

 

Nohadon does in fact imply that he has surgebinding abilities when he says that "alas not all spren are as discerning as honorspren", and seems concerned that Karm might take offence because "his own surgebinders were...". I think the speculation about Nohadon being a bondsmith must therefore be incorrect- he was bonded to an honorspren. 

 

It's interesting that the description of Nohadon in Dalinar's vision is almost identical to Jezrien in Kalak's POV. Youthful, regal, with dark hair and a short beard. It may be mere co-incidence, or then again it might be something more...

[Wit]

There is a line that Nohadon says in Dalinar's vision: "The responsibility of what we've been given — whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond — needs to make us better" 

Now I see two ways to interpret this, one being that the responsibility that Nohadon claims he has been given is the crown while the Nahel bond is Karm's responsibility. The other way to look at this is that Nohadon also bears the responsibility of having a Nahel Bond, thereby supporting the Nohadon being a surgebinder assumptions.