Spren tie to Surges, not Orders

[twelfthrootoftwo]

Hello people of 17^th Shard! Long time lurker, first time posting here. After reading Words of Radiance, it occurred to me that four of the six bonded spren we see strongly resemble one of the essences. I’ve been thinking about it for a while, and come up with this theory.

The basic idea is that the types of bonded spren don’t correspond to the orders, but instead to surges, and take their forms from one of the connected essences. I’ll start by demonstrating what I mean about the appearance of the spren.

 

(Note this theory assumes the map of orders and surges from http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6584-seattle-signing-orders-and-surges-confirmed-d/ is correct.

Spoiler tags are used for formatting purposes, and contain quote collections or lists.
Page numbers refer to the US hardback, and aren't provided for TWoK as I think my Australian paperback is out.)

 

 

Syl

“The windspren had taken the shape of a young woman…with an angular face and long, flowing hair that faded into mist behind her head.” – TWoK  ch2 “Honor is Dead”

This should be fairly clear - Kaladin mistakes her for a windspren at first. The Windrunners were associated with the essence Zephyr (air/wind).

 

Ivory

“One took the shape of a man of midnight blackness, though he had a certain reflective cast…of some other liquid with a coating of oil” – WoR Prologue “To Question”, p20

“She met the oil figure’s gaze.” – WoR Prologue “To Question”, p22

“A small figure made of inky blackness” – WoR ch3 “Pattern”, p68

Jasnah performs Soulcasting and Elsecalling, which puts her under order 7. The corresponding essence is Tallow (oil).
The two quotes from Jasnah’s POV in the prologue clearly tie the appearance of the spren to oil. The third, from Shallan, is not as conclusive, but at the same time she only has a glimpse of the spren.

 

Ym’s Spren

“specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam.” – WoR chI-2 “Ym”, p171

“The spren’s form…grew more intense, like light being focused” – WoR chI-2 “Ym”, p172

“A shimmering light that sprayed outward in a circle.” – WoR chI-2 “Ym”, p177

Ym uses Growth/Regrowth, which indicates orders 4 or 5. The essence of order 4 – Vev – is Lucentia, which seems a natural match, given the imagery of light through a prism.

 

Wyndle

“…a thin, twisting trail of vines grew out of the darkness and approached Lift. It looked like a little stream of spilled water pocking its way across the floor. Here and there, bits of clear crystal peeked out of the vines, like sections of quartz in otherwise dark stone. Those weren’t sharp, but smooth like polished glass…” - WoR chI-9 “Lift”, p683

“The vines hardened after a few moments…as if briefly becoming solid crystal” – WoR chI-9 “Lift”, p683

“…his vine trail sprouting tiny bits of clear crystal here and there.” – WoR chI-9 “Lift”, p684

“’Well done,’Wyndle said. “We’ll make an Edgedancer out of you yet.’” – WoR chI-9 “Lift”, p686

We see Lift use Abrasion and Progression, and both Wyndle and Darkness/Nalan refer to her as an Edgedancer.  This puts her in order number 4, corresponding to Vev and Lucentia.
I’d like to note that Wyndle’s form shows aspects of essences 4 and 5, with the crystals and vines respectively.

 

The Stormfather

“’You will murder my child and leave her corpse to wicked men.’” – The One who Hates, p368

“’You have taken her from me. My beloved one.’” – Striding the Storm, p879

“Take care, Syl sent. My father hates you. This is his domain.” – Patterns of Light, p1038

There is clearly something of a parent-child relationship between Syl and the Stormfather. This might be common to the bonding spren, or even to all spren. However, I suspect this is because she is an honorspren.
Dalinar bonds with the Stormfather. The rear cover of the book strongly implies that he is a Bondsmith – order 10 – and this is supported by Ishi’s face in the heading of chapter 89, The Four (p1065).

 

Pattern

“It had a complex pattern with a haunting symmetry.” – WoR ch3 “Pattern”, p66

“…a ball of swirling blackness – infinite lines that twisted in ways she could never have captured on the flat page.” – WoR ch6 “Terrible Destruction”, p104

“He looked something like the pattern of splintered light thrown on the wall by a crystal chandelier…” – WoR ch6 “Terrible Destruction”, p107

Shallan’s descriptions make me picture a fractal, either on a flat surface or a sphere. Pattern is unusual in that this form does not give any suggestion of one of the essences.

 

 

To determine which order Ym belongs to, I will consider the pattern of chapter faces when we definitively see each character use Surgebinding:

Kaladin - TWoK ch 38 “Envisager” – there are two each of the Jezrien and Vedeledev faces.

Jasnah – TWoK ch70 “Sea of Glass” – two Shalash, two Betab; WoR Prologue “To Question” p17 – four Betab

Ym – WoR chI-2 “Ym”, p171 – four Vedeledev

Lift – WoR chI-9 “Lift”, p681 – two Vedeledev, two Nalan

Shallan - – tWoK ch45 “Shadesmar” – two Shalash, two Palah; tWoK ch70 “Sea of Glass” – two Shalash, two Betab

In each case where the order is known, we see at least a pair of the corresponding Herald’s face. There are three instances of faces not accounted in this way:

 

Kaladin – “Envisager” Vedeledev (he’s healing with Stormlight)

Lift – “Lift” Nalan (Nalan shows up as a character)

Shallan – “Shadesmar” Palah (No idea for this one)

 

My argument from this is that we can use the faces to indicate order. What does this indicate for Ym? He gets four Vedeledev faces, even with Nalan’s presence. Using the Progression surge would account for two, but not all four.

Conclusion: Ym is an Edgedancer.

 

This gives two very different spren bonded to members of the same order. How is this possible?
I’ve argued previously that Ym’s spren resembles the essence corresponding to the Edgedancers. Wyndle, however, takes after essence number 5, corresponding to the Truthwatchers. These two orders share the Progression surge, and I propose that this is what Wyndle is tied to. Ym’s spren would then correspond to Abrasion. Wyndle identifies himself as a gardener, growing crystals, which further supports this idea:

 

“I was a gardener. A wonderful gardener!” – Lift, p701

 

The pattern is that the spren take the appearance of the second order of the cycle they connect to. This is supported by the Stormfather and Syl, who bond with orders 10 and 1 respectively. They share the surge Adhesion, which would resemble essence 1 – Zephyr. What’s more, we have this quote from Syl:

 

“I bind things, Kaladin.” – TwoK ch67 “Words”

 

Following this pattern, we would expect Ivory to correspond with Transformation. This would mean Pattern should tie to Illumination. However – unless there’s some sort of –flowing-fractal-lines-as-liquid thing here, he doesn’t bear any resemblance to the essence of Blood. This could indicate my theory is completely incorrect, or it could mean there is something different about Pattern and his bond with Shallan.

(As an aside, this theory lends some credence to the idea I’ve seen recently about the KR bonding to two spren.)

 

Finally, for the sake of argument, I’ll list all the assumptions, consequences and problems with my theory that I can currently think of.

Assumptions:
Dalinar is a Bondsmith/order 10.
Syl and the Stormfather are similar/the same type of spren.
Ym uses the Progression surge.
The table in the Ars Arcanum and the map of orders and surges is correct.
The spren and essence correlation is more than coincidence or overanalysis on my part.
The chapter faces can be used to determine Radiant orders.

 

Problems:
Pattern…doesn’t fit the pattern.
There’s no full confirmation that Ym is an Edgedancer.

 

Consequences:

We’ve linked the spren and the essences.
Something is different about Pattern and Shallan.
The bonded spren could reflect a preference for one surge over the other, or maybe is related to the divine attributes of the respective order.

 

 

[Shardbearer]

Problem:Shallan used both surges, but there is no indication that she has another spren.

Same with Kaladin.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Shardbearer

[Moogle]

Ym is Order 5, not Order 4. Each spren is a combination of their two Surges. Ym's is a combination of Growth and Illumination - so we should expect his spren to be growing light, which is what it is. Similarly, Wyndle is a combination of Growth and Friction - and so we see Wyndle 'grow' around, sliding across the ground. Pattern is lllumination and Transformation, and surprise surprise, he's a constantly transforming ball of light. Jasnah's is Transformation + Transportation, and we see Ivory teleport himself around, and I imagine he changes shape too.

 

We can extend this to Skybreakers, with Gravity and Division - a comet. Skybreakers, Division and Friction - some sort of fire moving across the ground. Stonewards - no clue we haven't seen enough of Tension/Cohesion so I'll stop there.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Moogle

[thejopen27]

I like your idea Moodle, Syl is a combination of air pressure and gravity so she blows in the wind and moves as if Gravity has no effect on her (none of the other nahel spren move in the air like Syl). The only one so far that doesn't fit is the Stormfather or maybe the bondkeeper maybe, I guess he does fit adhesion as he controls the storms which deals with air pressure but I'm not sure what he has to do with Tension.  I'm sure that the spren are connected to what Surges they give but all windrunners had one and two and all edgedancers had four and five and all elsecallers had seven and eight so the spren are also connected through the orders although the book implies that the orders are arbitrary constructs.

 

Renarin's spren would look the same as Ym's as they're both Truthwatchers right? 

[twelfthrootoftwo]

Ym is Order 5, not Order 4. Each spren is a combination of their two Surges. Ym's is a combination of Growth and Illumination - so we should expect his spren to be growing light, which is what it is. Similarly, Wyndle is a combination of Growth and Friction - and so we see Wyndle 'grow' around, sliding across the ground. Pattern is lllumination and Transformation, and surprise surprise, he's a constantly transforming ball of light. Jasnah's is Transformation + Transportation, and we see Ivory teleport himself around, and I imagine he changes shape too.

 

On closer inspection,I see what you mean about Ym's spren - he describes it growing plantlike tendrils when stationary. Is there a definitive confirmation of his order that I've missed?

I'm not so sure about Wyndle, though. I don't get the feeling of 'sliding' the way he's described, rather that he grows in one direction and leaves bits behind which decay. It could be the inverse - friction has him fixed more firmly to the surface - which is basically what you would expect of a plant with roots.

I can't find a reference to Ivory teleporting himself around. He walks and moves like a person in the Prologue, and when Shallan sees him, he just disappears. Can you point me towards what you're talking about?

(Also, Syl changes shape all the time.)

Pattern still seems odd to me. To give the full chandelier quote:

"He looked something like the pattern of splintered light thrown on the wall by a crystal chandelier - except he was made of something black instead of light, and he was three-dimensional."

It's the "something black" part that bothers me, because that makes him sound like an absence of light, not its presence. Although it does sound like he glowed when she was a child:

"A silvery sword. A pattern of light." - WoR ch3 "Pattern", p69

---------------------------------------------

 

Problem:Shallan used both surges, but there is no indication that she has another spren.

Same with Kaladin.

So did Lift, and Ym used the surge I'm arguing he's not connected to. Point being, KR can access both surges from one spren.

[thejopen27]

Ym is a truthwatcher, order five just like Renarin.  He has access to growth and Lightweaving in his chapter he only uses growth but his Spren was very different from Wyndle who is vines with crystals, while Ym's spren is like light refracted through a crystal or reflected off water that changes size.  This light characteristic implies that his other ability is lightweaving with would make him a truthwatcher.  I don't know why he wasn't showing any of the same foresight as Renarin but he is the same order.

[Tempus]

I'm not convinced that bonds are exclusive to one type of spren. The in-text book seems to imply that some orders gain more specific spren. Bondsmiths is the most clear example. If there are orders that bond with very specific spren, there are orders that are not so specific. It's also implied once that there are different varieties of the same spren, notably honorspren, but also cryptics. Kaladin seems to think that bonding with a specific type of spren is the most important thing.

 

I think it's likely that orders of KR are not bonded exclusively to the same type of spren, but instead spren whose characteristic match their surges. The converse of this is that spren bond people for orders of KR who match the characteristics of the order. There are many, many types of spren. It follows from the above that several types of spren could be members of the same orders. And some classes of spren (specifically honorspren, cryptics) seem to be more political affiliations than types exactly the same (as mentioned by Jasnah). Certainly we've seen at least two cryptics (Pattern and Symbolhead) that are clearly different.

[hoser]

I'm not convinced that bonds are exclusive to one type of spren. The in-text book seems to imply that some orders gain more specific spren. Bondsmiths is the most clear example. If there are orders that bond with very specific spren, there are orders that are not so specific. It's also implied once that there are different varieties of the same spren, notably honorspren, but also cryptics. Kaladin seems to think that bonding with a specific type of spren is the most important thing.

 

I think it's likely that orders of KR are not bonded exclusively to the same type of spren, but instead spren whose characteristic match their surges. The converse of this is that spren bond people for orders of KR who match the characteristics of the order. There are many, many types of spren. It follows from the above that several types of spren could be members of the same orders. And some classes of spren (specifically honorspren, cryptics) seem to be more political affiliations than types exactly the same (as mentioned by Jasnah). Certainly we've seen at least two cryptics (Pattern and Symbolhead) that are clearly different.

The specificity quote from the in-book WoR could also mean that there are only one or three specific spren that commect to Bondsmiths, cryptics pair up only with Lightweavers and honorspren exclusively bond Windrunners.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Symbolhead, but it sounds like the form Cryptics take in the cognitive realm.  I believe Pattern is the same Cryptic that Shallan communicated with in tWoK.

[darkanimereal1]

Certainly we've seen at least two cryptics (Pattern and Symbolhead) that are clearly different.

 

Have we? I don't think this is the case. It's been a while since I read TWoK, so I could be remembering wrong, but I don't think we ever actually see a "Symbolhead" in the physical world in TWoK. Only in Shallan's drawings. Pattern is the first Cryptic we see in the physical world. Also, Pattern looks different in Shadesmar--how he looks there resembles the Symbolheads Shallan sees in TWoK.

[PorridgeBrick]

Specificity means that the Spren are very specific in who they'll bond with. So Honorspren and the Stormfather are very picky, wanting people that'll abide by strict codes of Honor, but more Cultivationy spren like Cryptics don't care if they're good people just as long as they give them lots of juicy truths to chew on.

[darkanimereal1]

Specificity means that the Spren are very specific in who they'll bond with. So Honorspren and the Stormfather are very picky, wanting people that'll abide by strict codes of Honor, but more Cultivationy spren like Cryptics don't care if they're good people just as long as they give them lots of juicy truths to chew on.

 

I don't think we have proof yet that Cryptics are "Cultivantiony" (although I do tend to think they are). However, we know that Wyndle is closely related to Cultivation (he calls her Mother in a similar way to how Syl calls the Stormfather her father). We also know that Wyndle does care quite a bit about how Lift acts. Most of the time he's just fretting and complaining, but she also acts very closely to her oaths, particularly when helping out the new Prime. So I don't think that Cultivation-related spren care less about how the person they bond with acts. I think they just care about different attributes.

[Turos]

I doubt any type of spren is tied to any surge, except for which Adonalsium shard they come from. If we are going on looks or personality, Shallan could just as easily have bonded with a creationspren, one that had some potential to bind with a Radiant.

 

Why is Syl so important to the Stormfather as opposed to any other windspren?

 

Why could Dalinar bind with the Stormfather? This example shows that the radiant-to-be made the call. Was it because of the Stormfather's relation to surges? Seems more like it was because of his duty and that which he found Dalinar worthy of carrying.

 

Why is Syl an honorspren? Who is to say that any Radiant's bonded spren can't be an honorspren?

 

If some spren are of Odium, some of Honor, and some of Cultivation, are there some that are combos of two or all?

 

Cosmere Spoiler:

Look at Preservation and Ruin. At odds, but they made three magic system from their combined powers and attributes. Nothing is stopping combined spren, in theory.

 

My feelings are that you could bond with a rainspren, although it would be rather creepy, as a Dustbringer. Nothing is similar here, but the spren is a piece of a piece of god, on Roshar, where power is manifested in a way that allows surges and Radiants. Syl is an honorspren, not because she is is also a windspren, but because she is honorable, or a part of Honor.

 

Does the Stormfather represent tension? Who knows? Does he represent Adhesion? Yep, atmospheric pressure. You could claim he is the type of spren for Bondsmiths, but that implies only one Bondsmith as there is, to my understanding, only one Stormfather.

 

The important part is that every spren has an existence on the Cognitive Realm. Each Radiant order has some way to connect to Shadesmar, though likely different from each other. Shadesmar is an inversion of sorts to the Physical Realm. Perhaps there is more in the topography of Shadesmar, perhaps where each type of spren originates, that has to do with what order they pursue to bind with.

 

I know I'm tossing around some contradictions to a degree, but I simply don't think the connections we are assuming are on the mark.

 

My theory is that each order of the Knights Radiant represents a three-way balancing between Honor, Cultivation and Odium. I also believe Voidbinders represent an inversion to the same. Nothing forces Odium to be evil, he is simply hateful by nature, though Rayse's endearment to this attribute doesn't help avoid that. By the same logic, nothing is forcing Honor to be good. He is simply Honorable. How men use the powers endowed upon them determines good or evil results.

 

By the same thoughts, I believe the Voidbringers' gods include Honor and Cultivation in some form or another.

 

EDIT:

 

My theory is that each order of the Knights Radiant represents a three-way balancing between Honor, Cultivation and Odium.

 

 And by that I mean they balance out together, but each represents a ratio, perhaps of one order exhibiting almost if not none of a particular shard of Adonalsium.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Turos Stoneward

[Aleksiel]

If some spren are of Odium, some of Honor, and some of Cultivation, are there some that are combos of two or all?

 

My theory is that each order of the Knights Radiant represents a three-way balancing between Honor, Cultivation and Odium. 

 

There are three magic systems, it's not only surgebinding.There is a voidbringers chart in WoK along with surgebinding one, so I find it more logical to have a magic system from each Shard rather three systems that have inner Honor/Odium/Cultivation balance.

 

Syl speaks of 'spren of him' implying Odium and Wyndle call the Nightwatcher his mother (she is in some way associated with Cultivation according to WoB but not in the same way the Stormfather is to Honor), so I'm inclined to believe each Shard has their own spren.

[Moogle]

There are three magic systems, it's not only surgebinding.There is a voidbringers chart in WoK along with surgebinding one, so I find it more logical to have a magic system from each Shard rather three systems that have inner Honor/Odium/Cultivation balance.

 

But this isn't how it worked in Mistborn. Two Shards gave rise to three systems, because one system was a balance between them. Given that Nahel bonding spren are a mix of Honor/Cultivation, I think it makes more sense to assume Surgebinding is Honor + Cultivation. The remaining systems are unknown, but I'm leaning towards Cultivation + Odium for Voidbinding and H+C+O for a third obscure system.

[Aleksiel]

But this isn't how it worked in Mistborn. Two Shards gave rise to three systems, because one system was a balance between them. Given that Nahel bonding spren are a mix of Honor/Cultivation, I think it makes more sense to assume Surgebinding is Honor + Cultivation. The remaining systems are unknown, but I'm leaning towards Cultivation + Odium for Voidbinding and H+C+O for a third obscure system.

 

But that would mean you have Cultivation more than Honor and Odium, doesn't really seem balanced this way to me.

 

edit: also, Tanavast said spren imitated what he'd done with the Heralds. And he gave them surgebinding, so even with spren of both H and C involved, originally surgebinding is of Honor.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

But that would mean you have Cultivation more than Honor and Odium, doesn't really seem balanced this way to me.

 

Why not? Surgebinding could be 2/3 Honor and 1/3 Cultivation and everything would work out. I don't think there's any law that says it has to be 50/50. I don't even know if it even takes much Shardic power to create a magic system, or what. We have too little data to work on here.

 

edit: also, Tanavast said spren imitated what he'd done with the Heralds. And he gave them surgebinding, so even with spren of both H and C involved, originally surgebinding is of Honor.

 

Any Shard can power any magic system (with differing levels of efficiency), and we don't know when Heralds were created. I'm inclined to believe Honor created the Heralds when humanity arrived on Roshar for the first Desolation, because the other planet they came from would have had different magic systems. At the point humanity arrived on Roshar, Surgebinding would have existed already (or at least, the potential for it). I'm not really sure, though.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Why not? Surgebinding could be 2/3 Honor and 1/3 Cultivation and everything would work out. I don't think there's any law that says it has to be 50/50. I don't even know if it even takes much Shardic power to create a magic system, or what. We have too little data to work on here.

 

 

Any Shard can power any magic system (with differing levels of efficiency), and we don't know when Heralds were created. I'm inclined to believe Honor created the Heralds when humanity arrived on Roshar for the first Desolation, because the other planet they came from would have had different magic systems. At the point humanity arrived on Roshar, Surgebinding would have existed already (or at least, the potential for it). I'm not really sure, though.

 

I'm pretty sure there are WoB on the Heralds either not being originally or just RAFO if they were Rosharian, but I can't find it right now. What you makes sense and I'm not saying it's not possible. Just kind of fits nicely for each Shard to have their own magic system.

[sppipe]

I think you are onto something, However, I think that the relation is more encompassing than you realize. The chart in the Ars-Arcanum is not complete, it says so itself, besides, the on in WoR contains more info than the one in tWoK.

 

I believe that that together, a spren and a human bound in by a nahael bond contain the all the attainable attributes in the chart, with each bringing some of them. We know from the epigraphs in WoR that the members of the specific KR orders always seemed to share the same attributes, all the willshapers were unreliable, erratic and capricious. All the truthwatchers were quiet and secretive, all the windrunners were natural warriors, all the lightweavers were artistic, all the edgedancers were charitable, etc...

 

What I am saying is that specific spren would look for specific people that would complement them in such a way that taken together both, human and spren would complete the chart in the ars-arcanum. this means that two different spren could bind different people for the same result, thus ending with different but ultimately equal spren-human couples in the same KR order

Edited March 23, 2014 by sppipe

[Turos]

If I understand correctly, you are saying that, roughly speaking, there are ten essences/attributes/virtues/whatever, and a Knight Radiant is equal to the sum of one sample from each of the ten essences/attributes/etc, which can only be achieved by binding a human and a spren.

 

Is this correct?

 

If so, that could mean that, for example purposes only:

 

Kaladin has some of values: 1; 2; 4; 5; 6 and 9.

 

Syl has some of values: 1; 2; 3; 7; 8 and 10.

 

Together, bonded, they have some of each of the ten values. KR Kaladin! Woot!

 

 

If this is true, then that could mean:

 

A rainspren has some of values: 1 and 7.

 

An angerspren has some of values: 4; 8 and 9.

 

John Jacob Jingleheimmer-Schmidtt has some of values: 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 9 and 10.

 

Together, the three of them have all of the values covered. Ta-dah! J.J.J. is now a Knight Radiant potential candidate!