Elhokar becomes a Radiant...

[grinachu]

We know that Elhokar sees spren. In WoK chapter 58, Elhokar says, "They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman…”.

 

 I had assumed that Elhokar's potential ability to become a Radiant had simply been shelved for Book 2 as a plot point. However when re-reading Words of Radiance, I realised that if Elhokar is a Lightweaver like Shallan, then the only way he would progress would be to speak deep truths about himself. If you read the confrontation between Kaladin and Elhokar at the end of Words of Radiance therefore from Elhokar's perspective, he has finally spoken words that might well open the path to his becoming a Lightweaver in the future and might now have unblocked the path to becoming a Radiant himself. 

 

Am i on to something? 

Edited March 20, 2014 by grinachu

[junior]

We know that something's going on with Elhokar.  There's one more item that you seem to have missed, and that's a comment by Elhokar to Kaladin.  Elhokar tells Kaladin that the presence of the latter makes the dark things around him go away.

 

It's almost certain that he has a spren of some sort watching him.  What kind of spren, however, is anyone's guess.  And while another Pattern seems like a definite possibility, there's also the possibility that he's attracted a different kind of cryptic that we're as yet unaware of.  Or he might have *shudder* attracted a Voidspren of some sort.

[Aleksiel]

Originally, I thought Elhokar was followed by Willshaper spren because of the similarity with Shallan's and the pattern of having one Radiant per Order. However, Elhokar doesn't fit the personality description of Willshapers.

 

He claims the shadows disappeared with Kal and Syl's appearance, but Pattern didn't seem to hide specifically from anyone. However, Ivory was uncomfortable with Jasnah even speaking about him. He may not be particularly wise, but he is careful. He tries very hard to avoid mistakes and listen to conceal. Unfortunately, the more careful he approaches a subject, the worse results he gets.

 

I agree he is a potential Radiant, but I'm hesitant on him being a Lightweaver. 

[11thorderknight]

Based on WoK info I was expecting him to become a Radiant eventually; however, based on WoR, I see him taking a much darker turn. So far, every spren we've seen has been the only one of his/her kind to bond a human in recent times. Wyndle and Pattern seem to have been chosen by their communities to do this, and had support, but Syl and Ivory are both defying their respective communities. We don't know much about Renarin's spren, but he and Ym are the only examples so far of two Radiants of the same order, and given the timeline, it's quite conceivable that Ym's spren moved on to Renarin after Ym was killed. 

 

My point is that Elhokar is not going to be a Lightweaver, and I doubt there are other orders that bond cryptics, or spren that look like them. And, given that his spren are fleeing from Kaladin.....well, it's not a good sign.

 

More importantly, Elhokar's personality takes a pretty dark turn in WoR. He's clearly not Radiant material. 

[junior]

And, given that his spren are fleeing from Kaladin.....well, it's not a good sign.

 

 

 

Not necessarily.  The word "darkness" by Elhokar is certainly suggestive.  But it's been indicated that Honorspren and Cryptics don't get along.  It's possible that Elhokar is being "stalked" by a cryptic looking for a bond (or that has already bonded), and that it leaves when Syl shows up because it doesn't like being around her (or doesn't want her to realize it's in the area).

[Moogle]

 I had assumed that Elhokar's potential ability to become a Radiant had simply been shelved for Book 2 as a plot of point. However when re-reading Words of Radiance, I realised that if Elhokar is a Lightweaver like Shallan, then the only way he would progress would be to speak deep truths about himself. If you read the confrontation between Kaladin and Elhokar at the end of Words of Radiance therefore from Elhokar's perspective, he has finally spoken words that might well open the path to his becoming a Lightweaver in the future and might now have unblocked the path to becoming a Radiant himself.

 

I had a theory that Elhokar wasn't speaking "deep truths". He almost seemed to be lying to himself to get himself to think he could be a good king, that he wanted to be a good king, and that sort of thing. When I look at Elhokar, I don't see a man looking to be introspective, I see someone who wants to believe he's better than he is. That he did a crappy apology to Kaladin was the exception rather than the norm, I think, which would make him poor Lightweaver material. He seems like the type that Lightweavers inspire, rather than being a Lightweaver himself, if that makes sense.

 

I could see him becoming a Radiant other than a Lightweaver, though. His character seems to be working towards great personal growth and a desire to be great. Ambition, I think, is a trait of the Willshapers, and it's in the Shadesmar Three.

[Aleksiel]

Syl and Ivory are both defying their respective communities. 

 

I've missed this about Ivory. Can you provide a quote?

 

 

I could see him becoming a Radiant other than a Lightweaver, though. His character seems to be working towards great personal growth and a desire to be great. Ambition, I think, is a trait of the Willshapers, and it's in the Shadesmar Three.

 

But he doesn't fit well the Willshappers' description of  having 'a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity'.

[Trevalion]

I had the same thought as Grinachu, and to me Elkohar seems to fit the type of the broken individual putting on a brave front and propping himself up with lies. RE: the liespren leaving when Kaladin showed up, I wondered if a liespren would hide if his own kind showed up, and that info would a useful insight into spren politics, but it never got addressed.

And there is just no way we're throwing a desolation and having only one spren per order RSVP to the party. I think this is even more true now that such an influential Spren as the Stormfather, who tried to stop Syl from crossing over, has let himself be bonded.

[Moogle]

But he doesn't fit well the Willshappers' description of  having 'a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity'.

 

Here's the quote in full:

 

And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiants, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, “capricious, frustrating, unreliable,” as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 7, page 1

 

Before I go on, I'd like to note that this comes across as an intolerant view, expressed by a biased writer in a book that passed through the many censoring hands of the Vorin church.

 

Elhokar is:

• Unreliable. See: the Sadeas debacle where he had ONE JOB to make Sadeas duel Adolin and he messed up.
• Frustrating. Elhokar is incredibly stubborn, and he's certainly made me frustrated. Repeatedly.
• Capricous. Elhokar changes his mind often, perhaps in part due to having Navani as a mother. First he wants to execute Kaladin, then he's apologizing to him.
• Erratic. "You’re a strange man, cousin, Adolin thought. Elhokar saw murderers in every shadow, yet often dismissed the Parshendi threat. He’d go charging off like he had today, with no honor guard, and would leap off a forty-foot-tall rock formation. Yet he’d stay up nights, terrified of assassination." His entire bit with the strap and suspecting Dalinar definitely lended him that air.

Elhokar does have something of a love of adventure, novelty, and oddities. His first scene with Dalinar is him enjoying a hunt as he romps around and makes a sudden race for the summit. His position as king means he can't do half of what he wants (and Dalinar makes sure he can't do the other half), but he makes do by importing various things into the Shattered Plains (including dead larkins, although that may be inherited from Gavilar). He regularly watches duels, which could include the novelty.

 

The traits of the Willshapers are Resolute/Builder. Elhokar's stubbornness lends himself well to Resolute, and he wants to build up the kingdom and become known as a great king for Builder (which I interpret as more... ambitious). (That second bit is a bit of a stretch, I admit, but the secondary attribute of the Radiant Orders never really seems very pronounced. Shallan is supposed to be honest when she has a liespren. All she does is lie!)

 

This is all something of a stretch, I grant. It isn't a firm setting of Elhokar into the Willshapers. But I think the potential is there, and he certainly fits there far more than the Truthweavers. Elhokar is nowhere near creative, and he certainly isn't honest with himself on a regular basis. I would be perfectly happy with Elhokar if he didn't end up attracting a spren, in any case. Surely at least one major character will manage it...

[Aleksiel]

...

 

I originally thought Willshapper would fit Elhokar, but I began to doubt later in WoR. I agree he's not Lightwever's material and he must be one of the three shadesmar-ish spren, which leaves us with Elsecallers and Willshappers. Your arguments make a lot of sense and he doesn't come out as a particularly wise, but Elhokar is trying hard to be; also his spren reacted strange to Syl and Kal. Ivory was the one who was uncomfortable being even talked about and Pattern just has a natural camouflage. So I can't decide which orders suits him better.

 

Though I can't make any good arguments of Elhokar being an Elsecaller; the pattern so far is to have one Radiant per Order; Elhokar's spren is similar to Jasnah's and Shallan's, therefor Willshapper appears to be the likeliest, even though I still don't view Elhokar as having love for adventures, oddity and novelty despite what you wrote. But I'm rereading WoR, may be I'll think differently by the end of it.

[WitSpren]

Pattern was obviously following Shallan since before she was 11 years old, but never significantly appeared in the visible world until she forced him to with her Picture.     Not sure if that method might have damaged him a little as he went immediately "Stupid", had to relearn a lot of things and now he can't disappear completely anymore.

[Elena]

Count me firmly in the 'Elhokar becomes a Radiant' field. I simply loved him in WoR, for all that he made me scream in frustration at times - kinda like Kaladin actually. That scene with Kaladin was simply amazingly powerful, revealing a depth of character that made Elhokar jump up in my personal character list, landing firmly in the top 5. Yes, he's childlish, annoying and self-pitying, but he has so much potential for character growth that makes me love him anyway, and I am definitely rooting for him to become a KR so that his arc will get even more awesome

[grinachu]

I actually had two alternate theories about the spren Elhokar sees. I was waiting for someone else to jump in with this, but here it goes. Here's the second of two. 

 

The front page of the Way of Kings (paperback) has artwork of the watching spren symbolheads. The back cover of the Way of Kings seems written from the point of view of a spren ..."There are four we watch...".  

 

Shallan repeatedly sees multiple symbolheads in the Way of Kings before Pattern manifests. In particular she sees them around Taravingian, also a significant player in the story, and around herself and she sees more than one of them:

 

1. WOK Ch.29

 

 "She had drawn something standing in the doorway behind the king. Two tall and willowy creatures with cloaks that split down the front and hung at the sides too stiffly, as if they were made of glass. Above the stiff, high collars, where the creatures’ heads should be, each had a large, floating symbol of twisted design full of impossible angles and geometries.

 

2. WOK Ch.38 "And five symbol-headed figures in black, too-stiff robes and cloaks. Each had a different symbol, twisted and unfamiliar to her, hanging above a neckless torso. The creatures wove through the crowd unseen. Like predators. Focused on Shallan."

 

These creatures sound very similar to the ones that Elhokar sees. These are not spren that have come to bound with humans. These are spren that have come to watch the significant events on Roshar. If it was a spren that came to bond with Elhokar, of whatever type, it would come singly, as Pattern, Ivory, Syl and Wyndle have done.  They are obviously scared away by Syl and/or Pattern. They are not Cryptics since Pattern is described quite differently from the symbolheads.

 

Jasnah describes these spren as related to their abilities as KR, but does not say they are the cause.  

 

So there you have it. Elhokar sees them becomes he is King of Alethkar and not  because he is a potential Knight Radiant. 

[Elena]

^

Interesting. But why would he *see* them then? It makes sense he'd been watched... but he takes notice of the spren watching him, which IMO indicates latent KR abilities

[banestar]

For what it's worth, when Shallan interacts with Pattern in Shadesmar, he's described in the same way the "symbolheads" were described in WoK ... too-stiff clothing, head made up of impossible lines.

 

So it appears pretty clear that the "symbolheads" are, in fact, Cryptics. That doesn't mean that they're there because Elkohar is a Lightweaver-elect or whatever, or necessarily because Elhokar is a mover in world events. We don't know *why* they're there for sure. We do know that Honorspren and Cryptics don't really seem to get along, so it's possible that Syl and Kaladin are just off-putting to them.

[Pechvarry]

I really like all of Moogle's points about being a Willshaper.

I notice that, as far as Shallan is concerned, the symbolheads have gone away. They aren't popping up in her drawings or whispering to her. The renewal of her bond is the only culprit. This makes me wonder if big El has finally passed the first "phase" and a spren has bonded (note that the spren always seems to bond before the human is even aware of it).

Perhaps it's as Grinachu says, and the Cryptics are watching several people with latent bonds. In which case, it's mostly coincidence that it happens to be a Cryptic on the "other side" in Shallan's case.

[grinachu]

^

Interesting. But why would he *see* them then? It makes sense he'd been watched... but he takes notice of the spren watching him, which IMO indicates latent KR abilities

 

I don't dispute that he has latent KR abilities. At this point in the story though it's clear many, many people do - Lopen, Renarin, Eshonai.  The KR are going to be as prominent in this story as Allomancers are in the Mistborn trilogy.  

[Gloom]

I think Moogle made some fairly valid points above.

 

Elhokar is definitely broken, and he is not a bad person, he just makes a habit of making bad decisions. Those bad decisions are often the result of Elhokars lack of confidence in his own ability to rule as well as his temper. They are rarely the result of Elhokar being intentionally spiteful. Elhokar doesn't seem like he hates anyone in particular, not even Szeth. He is terrified of Szeth, but he doesn't seem to hate him, so I don't see how Odium could be getting a grasp on him.

 

I think it is far more likely that Elhokar is a potential Willshaper. I think it is almost guaranteed that should Elhokar survive, he will become a Radiant.

[junior]

Elhokar is definitely broken, and he is not a bad person, he just makes a habit of making bad decisions. Those bad decisions are often the result of Elhokars lack of confidence in his own ability to rule as well as his temper. They are rarely the result of Elhokar being intentionally spiteful. Elhokar doesn't seem like he hates anyone in particular, not even Szeth. He is terrified of Szeth, but he doesn't seem to hate him, so I don't see how Odium could be getting a grasp on him.

 

 

Something that might be worth noting -

 

In WotK, Navani (in private with Dalinar) despairs of Elhokar ever amounting to anything useful.  Dalinar, on the other hand, has much stronger faith in Elohkar's abilities.

[Radiant_thoughts]

Maybe it has something to do w the dead larkin paperweight. Syllable certainly is fascinated w it. In the than interlude we know her banal sailed around the world at the drop of a hat in a deal so important that it has been in the works for years. It is referred to as priceless. We see a live one in action when darkness uses one on lift. Rysns live one will almost certainly play a role, but Branding made too much out of the value of a dead one for it too mean nothing. It could contain a dormant soreness, or serve as a recorder of some kind, but I know it serves a purpose.

[Radiant_thoughts]

Sorry spell check. Babsk is what I was going for.