Lin Davar: Hero or Villain?

[Seloun]

I'm referring to Shallan's father, if it's unclear.

 

Of all of the revelations in WoR, this is probably the one that bugs me the most. Is Shallan's father a hero, or a villain? Now, the cheap answer is probably 'both', but his characterization is interesting enough that I think it's worth examining in some detail.

 

The argument on the villain side is pretty easy, of course - he's abusive, violent, and ultimately murderous. Plenty of examples from the flashbacks to support that side.

 

However, the last revelation changes the picture drastically. He makes an enormous sacrifice so that Shallan is not implicated in either death. If he gets his way, no one (except Shallan) will ever know what he did for her, and instead will be scorned and hated forever, even by his other children. At no time that we see does he seem tempted to give up the burden, and he never seems to blame Shallan for his state or the family's misfortunes. Re-reading the flashbacks seem to indicate that this is the stone around his neck that drags him down. It seems like a hugely heroic thing to have done, doubly so because no one will ever (presumably) learn of it. Basically, he's the anti-Amaram.

 

I can think of two possible alternative readings that make it seem less heroic. The first is that, well, he's scared of Shallan (girl's got a Shardblade, after all, and she doesn't seem to have a whole lot of compunctions about killing people in self-defense). This kinda sorta works but I don't really ever get that vibe from what we see. The second is that it's just an extension of his possessiveness; Shallan is _his_, and no one gets to take her from him. Also sort of fits what we see, just not very strongly.

 

It's worth noting that Hoid implies that there's something unnatural going on here:

 

 

Shadows from her past shifted in the depths, surfacing just briefly toward the light. “Could you help?”

 

“No. Not now. You aren’t ready, for one, and I have work to be about. Another day. Keep cutting at those thorns, strong one, and make a path for the light. The things you fight aren’t completely natural."

 

So perhaps her father's degeneration has a supernatural element, though that almost seems to take away from his arc.

 

I want to say that her father's arc is supposed to be a classic greek tragedy (note: I am not an expert on greek tragedies, classic or otherwise); ultimately his great, heroic act is what ends up dooming him. I think I'd have to call him a hero, but I'm curious how other people interpret this.

 

A side note - What will happen when/if her siblings learn what really happened to their mother?

[Argent]

I read the end as "classic geek tragedy" and was all like dashjdhasjdh-WHAT? Then I reread it...

 

I can't take a stab at this though. I've thought about it, and it really bothers me that I can't decide how to quantify him, but I have no idea. He did do the hero thing when Shallan killed her mother, taking the blame. And then he went down the path paved by that good intention. I guess I could call him a hero, but a weak and broken one - he did the right thing, but the consequence of that action really wore him down. Seems to be a mild theme in the books too - doing something good and then having the effect of your deed mess you up in response. I am looking at you, Kaladin. 

[PudgyNinja]

Like most people, he's a little of both.  He tried to protect his daughter and took a terrible burden on himself (heroic), but it overwhelmed him and he became abusive and cruel to his family and others (villainous).  I don't think he has to be one or the other.

[Daishi5]

I don't know where to go with him.  I think he never hit her because he knew she could kill him, so it seems like a fallen hero story where a good man goes down a dark path.  

 

However, I am just confused as to why he seems to have ignored the fact that Shallan had a blade.  At the time, the only way to get a blade was from another shardholder, and the thing is worth more than some kingdoms.  It is almost like Shallan showed up with a pristine Picasso, and he just never tried to look into it.  Did he think that Shallan killed a shardbearer and hid the fact from everyone before she was 12?  Did he think she just found it at the side of the road?  

 

Or, was he somehow involved in her forming a bond with Pattern? Because if Shallan needed to be broken somehow to form the bond, and he doesn't question how she got a Blade, then there may be even more to the story than we have seen so far.

[Shards of Mist]

This was a part of the story that really sort of depressed me. The man had personal demons from this incident. Clearly he loved his wife, yet he also loved his daughter. To have one kill the other, either way, was going to break the man. Having his beloved firstborn leave and denounce him for something he didn't do would've broken him further.

It didn't justify his murdering his second wife, but it was still a little demented for Shallan to have been the one to kill him. I can't imagine what his thoughts would've been staring up into the eyes of his death and seeing the eyes of the one he suffered all of this for.

[Shardlet]

The impression I got was that he was protecting Shallan in order to keep her for his own ends.  Shallan's mother was part of one of our lovely secret societies.  I think Lin was as well (even before Luesh's arrival).  I think he knew what Shallan was and sought to prevent others from finding out.  She was a prize to him and he showed her off like a trophy.  Yet, she was discouraged from talking to others.  She was isolated and made to be dependant upon her father.  So I say he was unequivocably a villain.

[dionysus]

It really explains his fixation on obedience. He knew the hatred and disobedience from others was unjustified, and he got frustrated that even when he was acting with the best intentions all the fruits of his labors would be spoiled by this taint.

 

Can you imagine having every endeavor end up sabotaged because people believed you did something you didn't actually do.

Edited March 12, 2014 by dionysus

[Nebty]

Shallan's backstory was absolutely heartbreaking. Even though I could see where everything was leading, it was still a gut punch when it happened.

 

And people are very rarely just heroes or just villains. Lin protected Shallan because he loved her. Shallan loved him too, and tried to be as dutiful a daughter as she could. Over the years, though, I wonder if Lin didn't grow to hate his daughter as well. His actions towards Shallan, even though he never physically touched her, were horribly abusive. He isolated her for most of her life, preventing her from having relationships with people outside the family. He also physically abused others while making it clear to her that they were being punished for her lack of obedience. That's some pretty powerful emotional manipulation right there, especially when you consider that Shallan believes everything that's gone wrong in her family has been her fault.

 

So, to answer the question, I think it's tough to call Lin a hero or a villain. The situation is too complex for that. He did lie to save Shallan, but he also proceeded to systematically brutalize his family for years to satisfy his need to control them. And even though he protected his daughter he also allowed her to believe that this was all her fault, even reinforcing her sense of guilt by hurting people when she disobeyed him. That is amazingly stormed up.

 

I've gotta say, kudos to Brandon Sanderson. Abusive relationships are difficult to write, and even more difficult to write in a way that is emotionally resonant. I wonder what kind of research he did. The parts where, despite everything that had happened, Shallan still hopes that maybe he's finally changed, rang especially true. Also the part when she's telling Kaladin about her past and she says that she loved her father very much. She did love her father, and she kept hoping that he'd turn back into the man he once was. 

[Seloun]

Something I'd forgotten, from 'Safe Things' (19):

 

 

“You are a vile corruption upon this house,” Helaran said. “I should shove this through your chest. To do so would be a mercy.”

 

“Helaran . . .” The passion seemed to have bled from Father, like the color from his face, which had gone stark white. “You don’t know what you think you know. Your mother—”

 

“I will not listen to your lies,” Helaran said, rotating his wrist, twisting the sword in his hand, point still against Father’s chest. “So easy.”

 

which actually makes me wonder if Shallan's father _did_ tell Helaran, but Helaran didn't believe him. Or if this was the only instance.

 

Regardless, it makes me wonder what would have happened if Helaran knew what had occurred. Would that have made it better or worse? Ultimately, it seems like the responsibility is due to Shallan's mother's actions, compounded by the societal baggage that goes along with having a Shardblade. If Helaran had been willing to listen, how much would have been different?

[Nebty]

Well presumably Lin also told Malise and she apparently believed him. In the scene where Shallan is bandaging her wounds Malise wonders if Lin will start hurting Shallan who she says, "actually deserves it". Shallan doesn't deny it either. I don't think Malise would've said this if Lin hadn't told her about what happened.

[Aminar]

I figure he died a bad guy.  That's the end of his story.  My real question is what was up with Shallan's mother.  What happened there and how in the devil are we getting an answer outside of Shallan's flashbacks?(I can see a few ways, but I was hoping for that answer eventually.)  The key has to be what SHallan tells Hoid about her mother's friends showing up...

WAIT!

I think I understand.

What if Shallan's mother was friends with/was a Skybreaker/s?  Then Hellaren found out and went look for them.  And Shallan killed her mother because her mother knew they'd been killing Radiant's as they awoke.  It happened Six years ago, right around when Jasnah discovered her Spren.

[name_here]

I think he started off as a hero, but the strain of it destroyed him. Everyone "knew" he was a murderer, and treated him as such. He also struggled to keep the family together even though his children also blamed him, and he needed to manage the family finances without being able to read or write or trust anyone to do it for him. He couldn't take it, and began to lash out, driving people further away and pushing him deeper into rage and depression.

 

 

I figure he died a bad guy.  That's the end of his story.  My real question is what was up with Shallan's mother.  What happened there and how in the devil are we getting an answer outside of Shallan's flashbacks?(I can see a few ways, but I was hoping for that answer eventually.)  The key has to be what SHallan tells Hoid about her mother's friends showing up...

 

I figure she took Pattern for a Voidbringer and assumed Shallan was possessed. Seeing as how she got killed by an eleven year-old Surgebinder, she probably wasn't a Skybreaker. Either she'd know how to beat a Surgebinder or she'd be able to call for backup that could.

Edited March 12, 2014 by name_here

[Macen]

Here's my thoughts. Shallan's mother was part of a secret society (possibly the Envisagers?) and when they found out about Shallan they were going to try to push her to a breaking point. Her dad was possibly part of this group as well, and didn't believe that Shallan was a KR an thought that her mother was going to kill Shallan trying to break her. So, he stepped in.

When Shallan made materialized a Shardblade and killed her mother, Lin realized that they were right, but hid the fact.

This broke him, and I believe odium somehow got a hold of him. All of her fathers rage seemed to be exactly what someone who was being influenced by odium would do. He has issues with rage, and he provokes rage from others (his children). I think that he was on his way to becoming a Voidbinder.

Just speculation though.

P.S. Maybe Lin and Shallan's Mother were part of ANOTHER secret group that worship odium?

[Aminar]

I think he started off as a hero, but the strain of it destroyed him. Everyone "knew" he was a murderer, and treated him as such. He also struggled to keep the family together even though his children also blamed him, and he needed to manage the family finances without being able to read or write or trust anyone to do it for him. He couldn't take it, and began to lash out, driving people further away and pushing him deeper into rage and depression.

 

 

I figure she took Pattern for a Voidbringer and assumed Shallan was possessed. Seeing as how she got killed by an eleven year-old Surgebinder, she probably wasn't a Skybreaker. Either she'd know how to beat a Surgebinder or she'd be able to call for backup that could.

 

Certainly possible.  But there were a number of discussions about Shardblades appearing inside people and instakilling them.  Even a Skybreaker wouldn't necessarily be prepared for that from their 11 year old daughter.  It makes a great deal of sense in that it ties together Hellaran's storyline and why Shallan's mother, who she sees in a positive light even still would try to kill her.  Not to mention her mother's "friends, who she wishes never showed up."  It seems unlikely she just went full on religious nutjob witchhunt on her daughter.  Not unless she had a strong predilection towards doing so(like Darkness seems to.)

[Luke.spence]

Me and Aleksiel have argued the "kinda a hero" side fairly extensively on GR, and I posted my thoughts on this, in the Shallan thread. 

 

I actually liked her father as a character more than I liked Shallan (not that I disliked Shallan). He was a very intriguing character. I knew what had happened way before the end though, because I had a hunch and I watched for clues that it was correct, so during all the flashbacks, I was already sympathizing with the father.

[gofunkiertti]

Considering radiants seems to be partially blood related it's possible her father was at some point a partial radiant. Perhaps the way he destroyed the family was partially magical. Have we got any hints that any of the orders can mess with peoples minds? Truthwatcher's perhaps?

[Luke.spence]

Hm, or do spren purposefully cause situations in which people will break so they are able to bond with them? Maybe spren are more evil puppet masters than helpful friends. That would explain the "supernatural" element.

[Jit]

I would say he started off as a hero and died a villain. So if you where to look at the ideal of the book then he is a villain.

[Chrono]

Well presumably Lin also told Malise and she apparently believed him. In the scene where Shallan is bandaging her wounds Malise wonders if Lin will start hurting Shallan who she says, "actually deserves it". Shallan doesn't deny it either. I don't think Malise would've said this if Lin hadn't told her about what happened.

I consider this unlikely. Shallan's father has been keeping this secret away from everyone, including his own sons. Often, when we are in pain and suffering from someone else, we tend to project the blame onto something. Shallan was untouched by her father for all of her life, while Malise had to deal with arguments, beatings, and basically domestic abuse every single day. She easily could have become bitter towards Shallan for being relatively safe. She's saying that she deserves it because everyone else is abused, broken, and has to deal with her father's temper, except sweet little Shallan.

[Nebty]

I consider this unlikely. Shallan's father has been keeping this secret away from everyone, including his own sons. Often, when we are in pain and suffering from someone else, we tend to project the blame onto something. Shallan was untouched by her father for all of her life, while Malise had to deal with arguments, beatings, and basically domestic abuse every single day. She easily could have become bitter towards Shallan for being relatively safe. She's saying that she deserves it because everyone else is abused, broken, and has to deal with her father's temper, except sweet little Shallan.

 

That's a possibility, the wording is ambiguous enough, but I just can't see the logic in saying that Shallan "deserves" to be beaten just because so far she hadn't been. None of them deserved what Lin did to them. It made me think that she knows some of what happened, even if Lin just hinted at it in a moment of weakness, like he tried to do when threatened by Helaran. Malise is arguably the person who was closest to him other than Shallan. His sons were both too afraid and too disgusted with him to spend a ton of time in his presence. 

[PorridgeBrick]

It's really amazing how Brandon manages to put such depth into a long dead side character. He's far more complex and interesting than the majority of main characters in books, and he only appears in the flashbacks of a single book. I just hope he doesn't turn out to be magically manipulated like the OP hints, since all that would be undermined.

I think it's quite likely that Shallan's mom is just a very devout Vorin who thought Shallan was a Voidbringer. If she was a Skybreaker, she'd be way more cautious and probably tell others. Her friend does put a bit of doubt into that, though.

Malise doesn't seem in the know to me IMO. The wording to me seems like someone just lashing out indiscriminately, wanting to blame someone else. Seeing as Lin was able to kill her, I don't think he's attached enough to her to tell her about Shallan.

[Seloun]

I'm curious if anyone else sees possible parallels between Shallan's father and the Heralds. Nalan almost seems to fit, even if his brand of crazy doesn't present quite in the same manner. Somewhat ironic for Helaran...