Would Dalinar have investgated further if Kaladin had not asked for his boon? (WoR Spoilers)

[+eveorjoy]

I was surprised the first person Kaladin confided in completely was Dalinar. He did mention to Moash that Amaram was the one the enslaved him, but I think Dalinar is the only one he gave the specifics to.

 

Dalinar's reaction did not surprise me. He barely knew Kaladin and Amaram had been a close friend for many years. The fact that he listened as he did at all and did look into the story is admirable. And what Dalinar learned, from seventeen liars, was also to be expected.

 

However, when did Dalinar decide to test Amaram? He didn't bond the Shardblade until Kaladin was in prison. Just before Kaladin went to prison he told he that he was wrong about Amaram, but while Kaladin was in prison he admitted that he understood why Kaladin did what he did. Also, if he had doubts about Amaram's innocence before the disadvantaged duel why did he make him a Knights Radiant.

 

As unwise as Kaladin's choice was to ask do duel Amaram after Adolin's duel, if hadn't done it would Dalinar have continued to investigate Amaram?

[Seloun]

I think so. Dalinar sets up his test quite early in the book. Look at what he says in Taln's interlude:

 

 

“I am willing to consider anything , these days. Your Majesty, I suggest you send him to the ardents. Perhaps they can help his mind to recover.”

“What will you do with the Shardblade?”

“I’m certain we can find a good use for it. In fact, something occurs to me right now. I might have need of you, Bordin.”

“Whatever you need, Brightlord.”

 

This occurs in the interlude between part 2 and 3, which occurs right after Szeth's first attack if it's in chronological order. Even if not, this is when Taln first arrives, since it's before Taln goes to the ardents.

[+eveorjoy]

It is hard to know when that interlude takes place. Also, if he intended to test Amaram why risk making him a KR and why tell Kaladin "You’re wrong about him, soldier. You’re just plain wrong" ?

 

Why seem so certain of his innocence? It doesn't fit.

[Bramble Thorn]

It looks like you are right, and Dalinar did not try to verify if Amaram was righteous until after Kaladin was imprisoned. Taln's interlude was in the Interludes between parts two and three. Dalinars "sickness" is first mentioned in chapter 60 "Veil Walks" way later in part four. Dalinar stated he did not set the trap until the blade was bonded.

 

Implication from Amaram being made head of Dalinar's New Knights Radiant is he did a perfunctory investigation the first time Kaladin mentioned it, and found nothing. I say perfunctory because Sadeas (likely through his wife's spy network) was able to uncover the truth. Also, he did not even tell Kaladin the results of his investigation until he had made Amaram a "radiant" and Kaladin confronted him.

 

If Kaladin had not made the very public proclamation, I doubt Dalinar would not have really tried to find out the truth until it was to late and he experienced Amarams true nature somehow.

[Seloun]

Hmm, I assumed the interlude is chronologically between part two and three, but the timeline does seem to fit better with Taln arriving around or after the final duel. There's no question that Dalinar bound the shardblade after the duel, but that doesn't necessarily rule out Taln's arrival happening before the duel. Still, that does explain Dalinar's behavior better - I was previously reading it as Dalinar being angry at Kaladin not trusting him to work his way through the problem, and the KR appointment as a way of making Amaram's responsibilities clear-cut.

[name_here]

What I gather is that Dalinar actually did a quite thorough investigation, and found nothing. He mentions no fewer than seventeen witnesses of varying rank and eye color testifying that Amaram killed a Shardbearer. Kaladin accused him of multiple murder, abuse of power, and false testimony, and provided no corroborating evidence.

 

I think Dalinar decided to try that plan because Amaram sat out the duel, not because of Kaladin's public accusation.

[synobal]

The whole arc of Kaladin and Dalinar bothered me because it basically boiled down to really poor communication. I really dislike plots that depend on that. Had Dalinar told his trusted captain who saved his life his sons life etc repeatedly that he was investigating his claims instead of "seeming to dismiss them" then Kaladin's whole character arc could of been avoided.

[Lightflame]

What I gather is that Dalinar actually did a quite thorough investigation, and found nothing. He mentions no fewer than seventeen witnesses of varying rank and eye color testifying that Amaram killed a Shardbearer. Kaladin accused him of multiple murder, abuse of power, and false testimony, and provided no corroborating evidence.

 

I think Dalinar decided to try that plan because Amaram sat out the duel, not because of Kaladin's public accusation.

 

Agreed on this. Amaram doing nothing while Kaladin dived in to help showed Dalinar that Kaladin was more honourable, and so he tested Amaram because he trusted Kaladin.

[name_here]

The whole arc of Kaladin and Dalinar bothered me because it basically boiled down to really poor communication. I really dislike plots that depend on that. Had Dalinar told his trusted captain who saved his life his sons life etc repeatedly that he was investigating his claims instead of "seeming to dismiss them" then Kaladin's whole character arc could of been avoided.

 

Dalinar did promise to investigate his claims. Kaladin didn't believe him.

[Shards of Mist]

No, I think the moment Kaladin jumped into the pit seemingly unprotected against 4 shardbearers was the push Dalinar needed to fully trust him. Dalinar was begging for anyone to help. He was watching the destruction of his son. They would certainly have at least crippled Adolin, if not killed him had Kaladin not interfered. I think he would've done further investigating after seeing Amaram sit idly by and watch and seeing Kaladin put his life on the line. It was pretty easy for him to see who was more honorable in that moment.

Before all this Dalinar viewed Amaram as his closest living friend and probably the most trustworthy man he knew. For him to even investigate and ask 17 people to ascertain Amaram's story is high praise to what he already thought of Kaladin. Once Kaladin jumped into the pit, though, I don't think there's a soul Dalinar ever met whose word he would believe over Kal's. Thus, he realizes he has to test Amaram's word.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Shards of Mist

[Aleksiel]

I think what pushed Dalinar to investigate was Amaram refusing to help his sons on the arena. Or rather when Kaladin pointed it out:

 

"If he is so honorable,” Kaladin whispered, “then why didn’t he fight to save your sons?” 
Dalinar hesitated.

 

So, I think this is when Dalinar starts doubting his old friend. Kaladin's conviction on the accusations made infront of the entire court. He has proven himself over and over again. Why lie to Dalinar? So Dalinar most likely concluded there was some truth to his story. Of course,  there must have been contradictions between the seventeen stories Dalinar was told about how Amaram got his Shards. I can't imagine all details to be told with perfection. 

 

None of these things on its own would have been enough imo, but the combination made Dalinar set a trap.

 

 

[Aminar]

I honestly think the interlude is chronological, but that Dalinar had to find 5 days he could be sick without missing anything important.  It seems silly to have the interlude happen so much before the events surrounding it in the book.

[aurik]

One other thing that the duel proved beyond the shadow of a doubt is that Kaladin was capable of fighting a Shardbearer and winning.  It is one thing to stab a distracted Shardbearer in the leg, but it is completely another thing to get into a fully disadvantaged duel among six Shardbearers and win, defeating two of them.  What he did should have been impossible.  Amaram may be a great general, a worthy friend, and an excellent warrior, but how many people actually have defeated a Shardbearer?

Edited March 11, 2014 by aurik

[Bramble Thorn]

What I gather is that Dalinar actually did a quite thorough investigation, and found nothing. He mentions no fewer than seventeen witnesses of varying rank and eye color testifying that Amaram killed a Shardbearer. Kaladin accused him of multiple murder, abuse of power, and false testimony, and provided no corroborating evidence.

 

I think Dalinar decided to try that plan because Amaram sat out the duel, not because of Kaladin's public accusation.

Actually, that makes more sense than what I said. Lets go with this.

[+eveorjoy]

None of these things on its own would have been enough imo, but the combination made Dalinar set a trap.

 

I agree the whole event pushed Dalinar in that direction, including asking for the boon.

Edited March 11, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Cheese Ninja]

Iyatil tells Shallan that Taln and Bordin arrived on the Shattered Plains "a few weeks ago" in chapter 63.  Chapters 63 and 64 happen on 10-6-5.  If I-8 was exactly 20 days (4 weeks) before, then that I-8 would be happening at the same time as the other Interludes (10-2-5).  Seems likely enough.  That's well before the big duel on 10-4-5 (exactly the halfway point, interestingly enough).  It seems like Dalinar was planning this from the beginning.  I think he was just really hoping that somehow Kaladin was wrong.

 

Dalinar would have had to start bonding the Shardblade within the next 4 days after the duel to have bonded it by the time he visited Adolin and Kaladin in prison. (10-6-4)

 

Timeline

[ChocolateRob]

Amaram seemed pretty darned surprised when he finally recognised Kaladin. If Dalinar had made any kind of thorough investigation then Amaram would have known that he had been accused and know who by. I see his investigation as more as -

 

D - "So tell me the story of how you won those"

A - "Well here it is. My amazing tale of daring do which these 17 people all saw"

17P - "That we did"

D - "Sounds legit."

 

It's not like Dalinar actually asked for any details from Kaladin when he first made the accusation, all he asked was if there were any witnesses. A real investigation would involve comparing their descriptions of what happened at the very least. Kaladin presented him with something he did not want to hear and as Kaladin said he would Dalinar just looked for reasons to dismiss it.

[+eveorjoy]

Amaram seemed pretty darned surprised when he finally recognised Kaladin. If Dalinar had made any kind of thorough investigation then Amaram would have known that he had been accused and know who by. I see his investigation as more as -

 

D - "So tell me the story of how you won those"

A - "Well here it is. My amazing tale of daring do which these 17 people all saw"

17P - "That we did"

D - "Sounds legit."

 

It's not like Dalinar actually asked for any details from Kaladin when he first made the accusation, all he asked was if there were any witnesses. A real investigation would involve comparing their descriptions of what happened at the very least. Kaladin presented him with something he did not want to hear and as Kaladin said he would Dalinar just looked for reasons to dismiss it.

 

Precisely. So Kaladin makes himself and Elhokar look like fools because he demands to fight another shardbearer and accuses him of murder before the court. Dalinar still thought Kaladin was wrong even after that. But when Kaladin saves his sons and points out Amaram did not, Dalinar began to think, maybe there is something to this story after all. I think Dalinar had so much faith in his old friend and was so focused on other matters, matters which he hoped Amaram would help him with, that he would have considered the matter dropped after he talked to the 17 liars.

 

Kaladin demanding justice in front of the entire court after saving his sons makes Dalinar reconsider. In fact after he calms down he admits he might have done the same as Kaladin

[Necromancer]

No doubt the duel may have played a small part, but I believe Hoid/Wit is the real reason Dalinar believed Kaladin. At one of the parties, Hoid sees Amaram and says many things about him being disgusting and filthy. After the party ended, Dalinar asked Wit if he was one of the Heralds. To ask him that, I don't think he ignored Hoid's words.

[darkanimereal1]

The whole arc of Kaladin and Dalinar bothered me because it basically boiled down to really poor communication. I really dislike plots that depend on that. Had Dalinar told his trusted captain who saved his life his sons life etc repeatedly that he was investigating his claims instead of "seeming to dismiss them" then Kaladin's whole character arc could of been avoided.

 

You forget Kaladin's already shaky role in this whole system. Dalinar owes him his life and obviously trusts Kaladin, Even so, Kaladin has a knack for stepping a little too high for his rank. I'm not condoning the lighteye/darkeye discrimination going on here, but it is a huge part of their culture. Dalinar hesitantly overlooks most of Kaladin's minor "transgressions" because Kaladin only tends to speak up when it's something important/useful (or when showing that he truly respects Dalinar, such as calling him only "sir"). 

 

This, however, is going a little far. He's accusing both a high officer as well as Dalinar's personal friend. The fact that he even said he'd look into it is a pretty big thing. When Kaladin pushes it, it's going too far. It is NOT Dalinar's responsibility to keep Kaladin informed on this issue. From Dalinar's eyes, the fact that he even listened to Kaladin's accusation in the first place is a major thing. I'm not going to say that Dalinar did or did not look into it fully--maybe he really did write Kaladin off. But it's not a matter of "bad communication." It's a matter of rank and respect.

Above all of that, it's very obvious that Kaladin holds a personal grudge against Amaram. So much about the lighteyes and Alethi court in general comes down to bickering and personal grudges already. And don't forget that Dalinar is convinced that he must unite them. I'm sure he doesn't want the captain of his personal guard starting problems with his best friend. As far as Dalinar knows, Kaladin's grudge against Amaram could be much similar to Moash's grudge against the King--rather than the awfulness of what Amaram actually did.