Amaram and his Allegiance

[Kersplattle]

Does anyone else feel that there is a potential problem with Dalinar and Amaram's particular friendship ? Amaram is a vassal of Sadeas; Sadeas and Dalinar aren't on particularly good terms now, so Amaram must be significantly conflicted. Any forces he brings will reinforce Sadeas, plus he adds a second (after now Sadeas himself) full shard-bearer to Sadeas' warcamp.

 

In the event of any conflict between Sadeas and Dalinar, he's going to have a serious problem resolving his loyalties is he not ? And he must indeed be the subject of considerable suspicion from Sadeas as well, can't be an easy position for him.

[Benjibooboo]

Obviously I missed it, but where does it mention Amaram being a vassal of Saddeas?

[Moogle]

In the event of any conflict between Sadeas and Dalinar, he's going to have a serious problem resolving his loyalties is he not ? And he must indeed be the subject of considerable suspicion from Sadeas as well, can't be an easy position for him.

 

Doubtful. Amaram didn't strike me as terribly loyal to his highprince, nor can I imagine anyone working for Sadeas is. There might be a 'conflict' if seeing Dalinar causes Sadeas to punish him, but I don't think it's going to be too much of an issue - one of my favorite theories is that Amaram will replace Sadeas as highprince. (Please oh please Brandon kill off Sadeas he's so boring.)

 

 

Obviously I missed it, but where does it mention Amaram being a vassal of Saddeas?

 

There's a few quotes in TWoK that mention that Amaram serves under Sadeas. Here's two:

Cenn didn't even know who the enemy was. A landlord was encroaching on Brightlord Amaram's territory--- the land owned, ultimately, by Highprince Sadeas.

 

That was the banner of Highprince Sadeas, ultimate ruler of Kaladin's own home district.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Moogle

[Benjibooboo]

Doubtful. Amaram didn't strike me as terribly loyal to his highprince, nor can I imagine anyone working for Sadeas is. There might be a 'conflict' if seeing Dalinar causes Sadeas to punish him, but I don't think it's going to be too much of an issue - one of my favorite theories is that Amaram will replace Sadeas as highprince. (Please oh please Brandon kill off Sadeas he's so boring.)

 

 

 

There's a few quotes in TWoK that mention that Amaram serves under Sadeas. Here's two:

Thanks for this. Hmm well that does make things interesting. I`m guessing from some of the reviews that are out that Sadeas or Amaram dies in this book. The reviews mention someone going out as a soldier and the readers feeling emotionally attaxched, so I am assuming just before they die we are reminded of their humanity and they do something that somewhat redeems them as much as possible, (whoever it it). These two seem both to be decent prospects.

[Kersplattle]

Thanks Moogle for those references, those were what I relied upon.

 

In most hierachical societies with a form of feudalism (and I'd aver that Alethi culture fits that), loyalties by sub-lords to their overlord is very important. Your very status as an overlord depends on the support of your vassals, and one has (usually) extensive powers over one's vassals. Amaram was trusted by Sadeas at least to the extent that he was left with the responsibility of defending part if not all of Sadeas' territories while Sadeas himself was at the Shattered Plains.

 

If he chose I suspect that Sadeas could significantly demote Amaram and deprive him of territory and responsibilities; although I don't know that for a fact as we just don't have that much information about how Alethia is actually run.

 

And particularly now that Sadeas and Dalinar are in near open conflict, Amaram's position looks to me to be tricky. Loyalty is not entirely an optional matter.

 

In terms of the story and the book, it's another source of conflict so useful for driving the narrative. I like it for the possibilities it serves.

 

 

Of course YMMV depending on how you understand Alethi society works; but based on real world analogs vassalship is a serious subject and Amaram may have to chose where his loyalties lie. If he repudiates Sadeas he may be entirely deprived of any land holdings in Sadeas' territories; it would be a serious break. Maybe Dalinar would recompense him, but his ability to do so must be limited by his own vassal's holdings that he can't arbitarily deprive them of.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Kersplattle

[Gloom]

Thanks Moogle for those references, those were what I relied upon.

In most hierachical societies with a form of feudalism (and I'd aver that Alethi culture fits that), loyalties by sub-lords to their overlord is very important. Your very status as an overlord depends on the support of your vassals, and one has (usually) extensive powers over one's vassals. Amaram was trusted by Sadeas at least to the extent that he was left with the responsibility of defending part if not all of Sadeas' territories while Sadeas himself was at the Shattered Plains.

If he chose I suspect that Sadeas could significantly demote Amaram and deprive him of territory and responsibilities; although I don't know that for a fact as we just don't have that much information about how Alethia is actually run.

And particularly now that Sadeas and Dalinar are in near open conflict, Amaram's position looks to me to be tricky. Loyalty is not entirely an optional matter.

In terms of the story and the book, it's another source of conflict so useful for driving the narrative. I like it for the possibilities it serves.

Of course YMMV depending on how you understand Alethi society works; but based on real world analogs vassalship is a serious subject and Amaram may have to chose where his loyalties lie. If he repudiates Sadeas he may be entirely deprived of any land holdings in Sadeas' territories; it would be a serious break. Maybe Dalinar would recompense him, but his ability to do so must be limited by his own vassal's holdings that he can't arbitarily deprive them of.

A sovereign lord has to be careful when dealing with a proven and influencial noble of Amarams stature. Just because he may technically have the authority to strip Amaram of his lands, titles, and wealth, doesn't mean he could actually get away with it. Amaram has popularity, powerful friends, and an army of his own. He may even have the favor of the King, and he definately has a set of Shards. Trying to strip Amaram of his lands, titles, or wealth would almost certainly result in Amaram claiming either independence for his lands and proclaiming himself High Prince, or defection of his person and his lands into the territory of another High Prince. Either of these would result in a war that Sadeas is unable to prosecute without leaving the Shattered Plains. At the least this would make him appear a fool. At worst, Amaram would leave the Shattered Plains, return to Sadeas lands, claim them in their entirety for himself and depose Sadeas.

There is plenty of precedent for this in our world. Barons defying their Dukes, Dukes defying their Kings, and even Barons defying their Kings. It all depends on the relative strength of the sovereign lord to that of the vassel lord. In a land like Alethkar, this is even more so because Sadeas can't count on Elhokar to have the political power to force any of the other High Princes to provide him with aid.

Sadeas is many things, but he isn't a fool. It seems more likely that Sadeas would work with what he has. That he would overlook Amarams friendship with Dalinar and instead charge Amaram with becoming Dalinars confidant so he can head off any plots by Dalinar against Sadeas. This would eliminate Amarams need to defy his liege and make may possibly result in garnering information about his potential enemy that Sadeas didn't already have.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Gloom

[Kersplattle]

Gloom, I quite agree. We don't know, for example, if Amaram's lands are placed so that he could "defect" easily; certainly Sadeas would be constrained by the appearance of legality (in Alethi terms) and by real-politik. However i would argue that Amaram is in a bit of a bind especially now because of the near open rift between Sadeas and Dalinar.

 

Even if Sadeas asks Amaram to "spy" on Dalinar, would he do so ? It is essentially impossible right now to be trusted fully by both Dalinar and Sadeas, Dalinar's no fool either and if he suspected Amaram was reporting on him to Sadeas how long could they remain close friends ? It is a classic dilemma, a good literary device.

 

Also, if Sadeas is to take action against Amaram he has a number of opportunities. For example if the true story of the shards does get out Amaram maybe so shamed (in Alethi terms) that his following and support melts away; Sadeas (or his wife) may exploit the possibly muddy details of his gaining the shards anyway. While Amaram is at the Shattered Plains he is more or less in Sadeas' power, he may defy Sadeas but he would almost certainly only have a minority of Sadeas' troops who would follow him. Certainly an uprising would be a bad blow to Sadeas especially if another High Prince (Dalinar especially) supported Amaram, but he's not without allies himself. He could also force a duel with Amaram if he thought he was a superior fighter.

 

Right now its a delicate situation as I see it, undoubtedly planned to be so ! I raised this to highlight the possibilities and the tensions, and I do want to find out how it does get resolved. It is related to but not entirely the same as how does Amaram deal with Kaladin (and vv). The poor chap has finally arrived at the centre (currently) of the Alethi Kingdom to be faced with not one but two huge personal challenges.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Kersplattle

[Gloom]

Hmmm, yes, I see your point. Sadeas is very subtle though. Perhaps he wouldn't charge Amaram with keeping an eye on Dalinar, so much as mildly suggest it would be a good idea. The point I was trying to make is that if Sadeas gives Amaram permission and a reason for continuing his relationship with Dalinar, it eliminates any tension between Sadeas and Amaram that could potentially harm Sadeas position. This being exactly what Amaram himself wants, it would be expedient and politically astute of Amaaram to at least pay lip service to Sadeas plan regardless of whether or not he intended to follow through or not. It also gives Sadeas the ability to save face in front of any of his peers who question Amarams affiliations.

[Kersplattle]

Gloom, put like that I think it makes a lot of sense. Do they want to compromise like this would be my only query. I kind of suspect that Sadeas wants points of contention, though maybe not yet. He certainly would not want Amaram taking Dalinars side. Given the apparent long standing friendship between Amaram and Dalinar (and may I say, Amaram's links with Gavilar which presumably were known), one suspects that Amaram would at least potentially side with Dalinar.

 

So maybe it's in Sadeas' interests to undermine Amaram, subtly of course. Having him "keep an eye" on Dalinar is a good move, especially if it is carefully leaked that he is doing so even if in practice he returns nothing of value to Sadeas. It would undermine him with Dalinar to some extent.

 

Life ain't going to be all that easy for Amaram for a while !

[AerionBFII]

Im more worried about this mysterious relationship with Restares (who Gavilar mentioned as a possible employer for Szeth)

Also the one who convinced Amaram to steal the Shardblade from Kaladin, since he was trained in using the sword and accustomed to the Plate and to get rid of the witnesses. 

 

This guy has unknown allegiances and seems quite manipulative too! 

[Cromptj]

If Amaram has just arrived, he may well have decided that the best idea would be to report straight to Dalinar as the nominal general in charge. He might have heard that Sadeas and Dalinar were working together but not that Sadeas betrayed him and that tensions are running high if he hurried as fast as he could to the Shattered Plains.