[OB] Mayalaran

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

To pick up were you left, lets make a list of requirement we know:

- You have to be broken. Its hard to say from 1 to 10 how broken you need tu be.

- You have to live up to the ideals. (I'm not certain that Adolin follows the 1st, but that's another topic)

- It may be easier if you are a squire because: a. you are following your radiants ideal - b. your spiritweb is somehow more apt.

- Your moral codes have to be aligned with one of the orders.

- You need to attract the attention of a spren. We know most navel bonds were supervised. In the case of the edge dancers, the circle chose Lift, though also considerer Ym.

- You have to say the words.

- Spren started bonding just recently, so it is possible that they are still a little shy.

Do you guys know of any other requirement?

 

This pretty much sums it up. 

The first ideal is arguably so malleable to be discounted (Malata is a follower of the Diagram for instance). And other than that the Ideals and morality of the order are one and the same. 

And for the first oath with both Dalinar and Kaladin we saw them spoken internally initially. The others may need to be be spoken aloud, but the first doesn't, as evidenced by the Stormfather atop Urithiru pretty much telling Dalinar he was passed that point when he said the first. 

[A Dopey Spren]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

To pick up were you left, lets make a list of requirement we know:

- You have to be broken. Its hard to say from 1 to 10 how broken you need tu be.

- You have to live up to the ideals. (I'm not certain that Adolin follows the 1st, but that's another topic)

- It may be easier if you are a squire because: a. you are following your radiants ideal - b. your spiritweb is somehow more apt.

- Your moral codes have to be aligned with one of the orders.

- You need to attract the attention of a spren. We know most navel bonds were supervised. In the case of the edge dancers, the circle chose Lift, though also considerer Ym.

- You have to say the words.

- Spren started bonding just recently, so it is possible that they are still a little shy.

Do you guys know of any other requirement?

 

I believe that Spren have been bonding with humans for a long time, but Nale has been executing all of them. (In the hopes of preventing another Desolation)

[maxal]

So I am trying to backtrack into the posts to where I left it, but there's been a lot lately.

Basically, my personal supposition is, independently of being broken enough or not, it is quite possible the spren representatives for each order all thought Adolin was just not the best choice. As someone else mentioned, sprens have been bonding people in a sparse manner: most of these bonds are presented as "test projects" and, as such, the candidates were very carefully chosen.  

I have no issue believing the sprens from orders demanding a strict line of obedience and a high sense of morality wouldn't want Adolin: he isn't the right kind of person for such. I would put Bondsmiths, Skybreakers, Windrunners, Stonewards and potentially Willshapers into this lot. It isn't Adolin "cannot stand", it is more a matter of him not wanting to have this as a driving motto.  Based from what we know of his characters, I do think it makes sense, if sprens from those orders ever investigated the Kholin family, they would have skipped him.

I have no issue believing sprens from orders such as Truthwatcher, Elsecallers, Lightweavers and Dustbringers would not want Adolin either. I think the reasons are very obvious as to why he is not suitable: he just isn't the kind of individual they are looking.

All which are left are the Edgedancers whom we know have been looking outside of Alethkar and have chosen personas very different than Adolin. Thus, suitable or no, Adolin just isn't a prime choice for any order. Personally, I was very disappointed the narrative wanting Adolin to question why the sprens chose everyone close to him, but him, was never explored. This was one of many disappointment I had with the OB narrative: so many ignored plot points.

This being said, Oathhbringer did give us an idea of what it means to be a squire: it seemed really easy. Pick a Radiant you admire, follow him, wish it hard enough and you are in. The Skybreakers implied Radiants are to choose their squires and Kaladin chose basically anyone being willing to follow him. I however do not believe "being broken" is a requirement for the squires, as illustrated by the vision example someone linked. My thoughts are also fueled by Lyn and her scouts not really looking broken: I mean if we are to consider Lyn being asked to be a clerk for Bridge 4 as a "breaking moment", then Adolin is immensely screwed over and over again.

Last, I do not get why people are arguing Adolin is not "following the first oath". As we saw, the first oath is a formality. The Skybreakers future squires were just uttering it: how is it verify they "live by it"? I really do not get how Dalinar is living by it more than Adolin? The man who erased his memories because he couldn't deal with them? I personally never got this argument and my personal thoughts are the reasons why Adolin was not chosen by any sprens is not because of the first ideal. It most likely is no sprens which looked into the Kholin family found him suitable.

I also really agree with the person mentioning seeing oneself as "broken" might be the criteria more than events having really happened. Adolin doesn't think of himself as "broken" and that may also be an argument.

[Awesomness]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

As we saw, the first oath is a formality.

I think it is long as you are living it: 

Quote

“The Stormfather rumbled with displeasure. They go about this backward. Foolish men. They can’t draw in Light and become Radiant; they first must be approaching Radiance, and look for Light to fulfill the promise.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”. iBooks. 

 

[thegatorgirl00]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

I think it is long as you are living it: 

 

The problem is that the first ideal is so malleable, a person can pretty much justify it any way they want. We know that a philosophy of the end justifies the means is compatible to some orders of Radiants, even though it seems like it would go completely against Dalinar's and Kaladin's interpretations of the first ideal. 

Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Quote

AndrewHB

I wondered if I could follow up to that Machiavelli question. Would Elsecallers be a-- one of those other, uh-- one of those...

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah. Elsecallers are fairly compatible. Like, Elsecallers feel like the journey is... the journey is the entire species, right? And that the journey is the destination. *inaudible*

Source

[Calderis]

Malata is a member of the Diagram. The Skybreakers execute people at the drop of a hat. We have WoB that multiple orders would be fine with Adolin's murder of Sadeas. 

The first oath does not mean what people want it to. That argument should be long buried at this point. 

[PhineasGage]

13 hours ago, maxal said:

Personally, I was very disappointed the narrative wanting Adolin to question why the sprens chose everyone close to him, but him, was never explored. This was one of many disappointment I had with the OB narrative: so many ignored plot points.

Woo my quotes are working again. *phew* 

On your point above, I agree. I mean, I get that Adolin is a side character so we would expect his progression to be much slower than the mains but I am not sure I see significant growth from him here, or in WoR for that matter. His growth as he grappled with the idea of his father being insane was much more interesting to me as an individual. It isn't that I don't like him, so much as other characters with even less screentime seem to go through so much more growth. Look at Venli for example. I guess she might be a main character for SA4, but she didn't get that much time in OB and has had none before but we got loads from her story. 

I don't even need him to go dark or anything - but i do think that the Sadeas murder seems to have been dropped and we don't see him struggle with the idea that he is so much less important than he imagined. I don't mind that he takes it well, but I don't think he is so "good" that he can just accept it without really worrying about it. Unless he is  as unreliable as a narrator as Shallan (he seems pretty reliable) I think we should assume that what you see is what you get largely. Perhaps it will all turn out to be a mask, but we've already seen that be done. I think Adolin works as a steady, sane, normal character, but that doesn't mean his arc all need to be tied to another person all the time. 

13 hours ago, maxal said:

Last, I do not get why people are arguing Adolin is not "following the first oath". As we saw, the first oath is a formality. The Skybreakers future squires were just uttering it: how is it verify they "live by it"?

Ok, perhaps I missed a post here regarding this - and if so please can someone explain? But I am not sure the 1st ideal is "malleable" in the way people seem to see it.

I think your own perception of how the ideal works is what matters. We know perception is top-dog in the cognitive realm, so there are definitely layers of how you can interpret the ideals. If anyone has read the "His Dark Materials" Trilogy by Phillip Pullman I am feeling a link to the Alethiometer:

Spoiler

In this trilogy, Lyra can read the Alethiometer by "feeling" her way down to the various truths it reveals. Through practice, she can get a deeper understanding of what the Alethiometer is getting at. For example, each symbol on the meter has multiple meanings and they get more esoteric as you go "down" the list of possible interpretations. For example, the baby icon might mean an actual child, youth/childhood in general, or innocence/naivete. And the lists are long and not exhaustive iirc. 

My point is that what you understand "Life before Death, Strength Before Weakness, Journey before Destination" to mean when you first swear the ideal will change as you change. That doesn't make it a worthless or malleable ideal - it makes the person living it malleable and understand different layers of it as they change.

I personally see "Journey before destination" to mean several different things, they are related but not identical. Some of you may agree with some of them, and have other interpretations I've missed. 

• The ends do not justify the means
• The way you travel the path of life is more important than where you are going.
• The end is the same for everyone, but it is how you get there that matters.

Ok rather than going on, I don't see why, for example, if Kaladin is following this and identifying with the third one of my interpretations at this time, why it would make a difference if he thinks the 2nd is more important in 20 years time. Both are valid interpretations and as long as you are following it to the best of your ability then you are living by the ideal. However if you interpret the ideal to mean something else (honestly - you are not lying to yourself) then again, as long as you follow it, then you can be seen to be following the ideal. I think Malata presumably treats her ideals differently to Kaladin (makes sense, she is a different order after all) and thus can believe that the Diagram is a reasonable thing to follow whilst still following the first ideal honestly.

For example, "Life before death" could mean; live life to the fullest while you can.

"Strength before weakness" could mean; if you have strength, you act for those who do not.

Journey before Destination could mean; exploration of new things matters more than where you end up.

I think all of these could allow a diagramist to follow the 1st ideal whilst supporting the premise of the Diagram. There are likely other better interpretations than I could come up with. The issue might arise if or when Malata decides that she has  better interpretation of the 1st Ideal that no longer coincides with the Diagram, or if she decides that the Diagram's followers are no longer acting in accord with her ideals. Whether or not Adolin is living them, is, of course up for debate. I wonder if there is an element of reflection that needs to happen before the ideal can be sworn sincerely. Adolin is sincere, but reflection is not his strongest suit.

 

[maxal]

7 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The first oath does not mean what people want it to. That argument should be long buried at this point. 

I agree with you, but the argument keeps coming back. For my part, if the sprens did not choose Adolin, I doubt it is because of the first ideal.

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Woo my quotes are working again. *phew* 

On your point above, I agree. I mean, I get that Adolin is a side character so we would expect his progression to be much slower than the mains but I am not sure I see significant growth from him here, or in WoR for that matter. His growth as he grappled with the idea of his father being insane was much more interesting to me as an individual. It isn't that I don't like him, so much as other characters with even less screentime seem to go through so much more growth. Look at Venli for example. I guess she might be a main character for SA4, but she didn't get that much time in OB and has had none before but we got loads from her story. 

I don't even need him to go dark or anything - but i do think that the Sadeas murder seems to have been dropped and we don't see him struggle with the idea that he is so much less important than he imagined. I don't mind that he takes it well, but I don't think he is so "good" that he can just accept it without really worrying about it. Unless he is  as unreliable as a narrator as Shallan (he seems pretty reliable) I think we should assume that what you see is what you get largely. Perhaps it will all turn out to be a mask, but we've already seen that be done. I think Adolin works as a steady, sane, normal character, but that doesn't mean his arc all need to be tied to another person all the time. 

Ok, perhaps I missed a post here regarding this - and if so please can someone explain? But I am not sure the 1st ideal is "malleable" in the way people seem to see it.

I think your own perception of how the ideal works is what matters. We know perception is top-dog in the cognitive realm, so there are definitely layers of how you can interpret the ideals. If anyone has read the "His Dark Materials" Trilogy by Phillip Pullman I am feeling a link to the Alethiometer

 

I don't disagree with you here and I think you are hitting onto one of my problems with SA right now. You are absolutely right in saying Adolin's character has been given little growth. My major grievances for Oathbringer isn't Adolin's page time, but the fact Brandon did not use this page time to make the character grow, to develop the character. He instead use it to have the character narrate events happening with a few inner thoughts, but none were deep enough nor explored enough to truly form a growth arc and, as such, his later revival of Maya carries less weight. It does not come at the end of Adolin asking himself enough questions, angsting enough, dealing with enough things: it just happens and I think this may be what other readers are bothered with. And I cannot fault them.

I also agree characters with less screen time get more growth and a more in-depth story arc which is why my confidence in Brandon taking Adolin's character to interesting places has severely diminished. After WoR, I thought there were great arcs to explore with Adolin: him not being chosen by the new Radiants, his love life fiasco (now a closed arc), his relationship with his father (nothing came out of it except a few really nice flashback chapters which tell us Adolin's life was not perfect, but he treats it as if it were), the pressure to perform (nothing came out of this but a few one liner). 

I too did not need his character to go dark nor to be exiled nor any of the very extreme story arcs other readers have suggested, but I do think dropping the Sadeas arc, not making Adolin worry about it was a poor narrative choice for his character. Oh maybe it was a good narrative choice for the very narrative driven story Brandon just gave us, but it was sup-optimal for character development. It relied almost exclusively on Shallan's crazy head, Kaladin's inner doubts and Dalinar talking to people. It wasn't written in a way which allowed a character such as Adolin to really get a story arc which allows him to grow and this likely is why readers are still arguing about the same thing they were arguing prior to OB's release.

I personally feel Adolin's arc as a steady normal person would work if he has had the life of a steady normal person. He didn't. The fact Brandon can make him live through so much and not make the character react in any visible way even in his inner monologue breaks my suspense of disbelief which is why Adolin doesn't really work out for me, as a character. I get it, Brandon wants him to be this character, but IMHO, he has done a poor job out of writing him. Also, it makes him less interesting, he reads as too perfect. Even when he makes a mistake which out to make his entire world crumble, nothing happens and it is turn into a non-event. This was incredibly frustrated to read which is why I cannot like OB as much as the other books: too much was dropped. And Brandon showed me he had no intentions to flesh out Adolin's character in a decent way. He will do it for EVERY other character, but not Adolin. The Maya arc is not fleshing out, it was a nice arc, but it could have been so much more if it had came at the end of a character growth.

I cannot claim to know how the first ideal works, all I am saying is if Adolin wasn't picked, it isn't because of this ideal. Brandon however chose this was not important to the narrative. The way the squires swear it, the way the Skybreakers swear it, it seems more of a formality then a real life growing moment. I mean, look at Lyn the scout, she just became a squire because she wanted it really really badly. I mean, if she can qualify, the surely Adolin can too, the difference is Adolin doesn't want to be a squire, as for Radiants, well, I just think the sprens do not think he fits.

[PhineasGage]

10 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally feel Adolin's arc as a steady normal person would work if he has had the life of a steady normal person. He didn't. The fact Brandon can make him live through so much and not make the character react in any visible way even in his inner monologue breaks my suspense of disbelief which is why Adolin doesn't really work out for me, as a character.

So don't get me wrong, Adolin's life isn't sunshine and cake, but I think people assume he and Renarin had almost identical childhoods. They didn't - Dalinar is much  more distant to Renarin - he can't even remember his name when Evi visits him! He doesn't bother to advise Evi regarding choosing a name and he regularly think of him as "the other one" or the "cripple" rather than use his name. He is not a good father to Adolin in all kinds of ways, but he does show Adolin attention and approval as a kid - something Renarin never seems to get from him. That might not seem like that much, but to a character like Adolin who tends to be optimistic, it was likely enough. He clearly idolized his father so approval was worth a huge amount to him - and we see him get it at least once. I know Dalinar says he "hates" his sons after Evi's death, but actually hate often does less damage  than indifference, and anyway, he dealt with it relatively quickly in comparison with how much time the boys had lived. I'm not excusing Dalinar' treatment of Adolin, but I do think it is unfair to equate Renarin's childhood to Adolin's. Remember that epilepsy was often seen as a sign of madness in medieval times so it is possible that Renarin was locked up the way Taln had been. Even if he wasn't treated that badly, it is heavily implied that Renarin had almost no contact with his father for much of his childhood. Adolin spent half the year with his father for much of his childhood from what I understand. If there is a "threshold" of brokenness to becoming Radiant, then this might explain the disparity. 

More specifically to your point, you have essentially identified why I don't find Adolin that interesting. I never have. He is fine as a side character because he lends much needed normality to the story. I don't mind his lack of arc so much as I don't like having arcs started (eg the Sadeas murder) which then seem to have been dropped. I don't currently see why Adolin had to kill Sadeas rather than have the murder either stay unsolved or another person kill him? Very little of OB would have changed. All I can see is that by committing murder, Adolin was able to avoid responsibility (ie becoming king) that he didn't want in the first place. That feels...... too neat? I still have hope that these unresolved issues might be addressed in the future. For me, given that the arcs have been started, something needs to happen regarding them. For example, I can't see Ialai dropping her own investigation into the murder of her husband (we know she has spies in Urithiru) so perhaps it will still come back to bite him. I do agree though that I would have liked more insight into Adolin's feelings on it. We get a brief look at him wondering if he is ashamed or proud, but thats it until we see him appear proud (from Shallans PoV) when he admits it to Dalinar without any idea how he got there. I must admit that I actually disliked Adolin in that moment - I guess I just don't think it is ok to feel fine about killing any person. Perhaps I would feel differently if we'd seen more of his thoughts . *shrugs* 

33 minutes ago, maxal said:

The way the squires swear it, the way the Skybreakers swear it, it seems more of a formality then a real life growing moment. I mean, look at Lyn the scout, she just became a squire because she wanted it really really badly.

So I think we need to divide squires into those who can surgebind, and those who cannot (yet anyway). It is clear that Kaladin got squires in but not all started glowing immediately. We also see some who were with Bridge 4 take longer than others to get to glowing. Look at Hobber - he is really close to Kaladin in terms of his loyalty, and clearly Kaladin values him because of the way he tries to teach Hobber himself. I think Hobber wasn't ready in some way so whilst he was a squire in name, he wasn't glowing because he wasn't bonded fully. I think this likely happens with each of the orders. 

Just saying the words will be enough if you are already living the 1st ideal, but if you've said the words but don't yet understand them, you won't glow.  So with Lyn, presumably something abut how she viewed both herself and the ideals allowed her to glow almost immediately. Presumably though, whatever it is about her that allows her to be a glowing squire, is not enough for her to have attracted her own spren. My guess is, that as she is based on a real person, she probably won't become a full radiant.

If people agree, I think we need to come up with a way to describe squires that have been accepted into an Order that don't have stormlight yet, and those that do have stormlight. It would allow us to pick apart the defining differences. Any ideas?

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

If people agree, I think we need to come up with a way to describe squires that have been accepted into an Order that don't have stormlight yet, and those that do have stormlight. It would allow us to pick apart the defining differences. Any ideas?

The ones that have Stormlight are squires, the ones that don't are aspirants. I agree, that there has to be a distinction.

Edited December 2, 2017 by SLNC

[Fulminato]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The ones that have Stormlight are squires, the ones that don't are aspirants. I agree, that there has to be a distinction.

the skybreaker call the aspirants squire 'hopefuls' (chapter 90 'reborn')

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

the skybreaker call the aspirants squire 'hopefuls' (chapter 90 'reborn')

Hopeful and aspirant are synonyms, so yeah, why not.

[Greywatch]

8 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Malata is a member of the Diagram. The Skybreakers execute people at the drop of a hat. We have WoB that multiple orders would be fine with Adolin's murder of Sadeas. 

The first oath does not mean what people want it to. That argument should be long buried at this point. 

Agreed - the first oath can have many interpretations, and the main takeaway from this should be that what really matters about the first oath is if a spren agrees with your interpretation of it.

[Edvarin]

I think theres a war going on inside Adolin. He wants to be a Radiant, but if he swears the oaths, he might lose his bond with Maya. He's been talking to his sword for years. Its not a Nahel Bond, but still a bond. He knows Radiants can't hold a dead sprens Shardblade. Especially after meeting her. And now she's talking to him? Just her name, but still. Book 4 will find him searching for a way to revive Maya, for certain.

[kari-no-sugata]

Regarding the 1st Ideal, different Orders definitely interpret it in different ways:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e4163

Quote

AndrewHB

I wondered if I could follow up to that Machiavelli question. Would Elsecallers be a-- one of those other, uh-- one of those...

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah. Elsecallers are fairly compatible. Like, Elsecallers feel like the journey is... the journey is the entire species, right? And that the journey is the destination. *inaudible*

The implication from Elhokar's death scene (where Kaladin believed Elhokar was saying "Life before death" etc) is that the 1st Ideal does make a practical difference, since we saw Elhokar glow. Presumably that was a Radiant bond forming rather than a squire bond.

[Calderis]

@PhineasGage regarding the first oath. Here's a thread I started months ago, because I was sick of arguing about the first oath.

All of the Oaths are open to interpretation. The first apparently more than any other. Malata is a member of the Diagram. That cannot be reconciled with Tefts version of the first oath. Nale is a member if his order, not just a Herald, and he twisted the law to murder surgebinders for "the greater good" 

It is not possible for the first oath as by presented Teft to be universal to all orders, let alone all individuals.  

Edited December 2, 2017 by Ookla, the Incalculable

[Awesomness]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So with Lyn, presumably something abut how she viewed both herself and the ideals allowed her to glow almost immediately.

Mmm I´m pretty sure Kaladin mentions that most of bridge 4 could surge bind, but they couldn't get the new recruits to do it. The practice session we see from Skar´s POV is not her first, she didn´t make it immediately.

There may be a clue in her conversation with Scar though. He asks her why she wants to be squire. At first she says something vague, but then says she wants to help people and starts shining. I should reread that chapter...

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

@PhineasGage regarding the first oath. Here's a thread I started months ago, because I was sick of arguing about the first oath.

All of the Oaths are open to interpretation. The first apparently more than any other. Malata is a member of the Diagram. That cannot be reconciled with Tefts version of the first oath. Nale is a member if his order, not just a Herald, and he twisted the law to murder surgebinders for "the greater good" 

It is not possible for the first oath as by presented Teft to be universal to all orders, let alone all individuals.  

Sorry, I am not sure why you pointed this out as it is exactly what I said? I even said that the interpretation could vary within an individual over time because they will obviously change through experience. I'm not sure we are arguing this?

53 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Mmm I´m pretty sure Kaladin mentions that most of bridge 4 could surge bind, but they couldn't get the new recruits to do it. The practice session we see from Skar´s POV is not her first, she didn´t make it immediately.

Can't be - Skar isn't glowing in the Rock PoV chapter and neither is Rock himself (he does so for the first time in that chapter). That's one of the things commented on because Skar doesn't understand why he doesn't draw for ages. He's an original member too - its got to be to do with some perception thing on his end - Kaladin views them all essentially in the same way. Whether or not a new recruit is quick to start depends on them more than anything and whether Kaladin has accepted them I think. 

I think my point is that because perception is so important, anyone who doesn't quite reach the requirements to glow won't manage it. It might be something as simple as believing that they are good enough? Perhaps that is why Hobber doesn't glow until Kaladin convinces him he is worth it?

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Sorry, I am not sure why you pointed this out as it is exactly what I said? I even said that the interpretation could vary within an individual over time because they will obviously change through experience. I'm not sure we are arguing this

Sorry. I saw the "I don't think the first oath is malleable..." portion and snapped. I should have kept reading. 

I completely agree with your view. I'm just worn by I don't know how long of people arguing that Teft's presentation of the first oath makes all Radiants heroic. It's been a long struggle, and Malata make me so freaking happy. 

I apologize for jumping to conclusions. 

[maxal]

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So don't get me wrong, Adolin's life isn't sunshine and cake, but I think people assume he and Renarin had almost identical childhoods. They didn't - Dalinar is much  more distant to Renarin - he can't even remember his name when Evi visits him! He doesn't bother to advise Evi regarding choosing a name and he regularly think of him as "the other one" or the "cripple" rather than use his name. He is not a good father to Adolin in all kinds of ways, but he does show Adolin attention and approval as a kid - something Renarin never seems to get from him. That might not seem like that much, but to a character like Adolin who tends to be optimistic, it was likely enough. He clearly idolized his father so approval was worth a huge amount to him - and we see him get it at least once. I know Dalinar says he "hates" his sons after Evi's death, but actually hate often does less damage  than indifference, and anyway, he dealt with it relatively quickly in comparison with how much time the boys had lived. I'm not excusing Dalinar' treatment of Adolin, but I do think it is unfair to equate Renarin's childhood to Adolin's. Remember that epilepsy was often seen as a sign of madness in medieval times so it is possible that Renarin was locked up the way Taln had been. Even if he wasn't treated that badly, it is heavily implied that Renarin had almost no contact with his father for much of his childhood. Adolin spent half the year with his father for much of his childhood from what I understand. If there is a "threshold" of brokenness to becoming Radiant, then this might explain the disparity. 

More specifically to your point, you have essentially identified why I don't find Adolin that interesting. I never have. He is fine as a side character because he lends much needed normality to the story. I don't mind his lack of arc so much as I don't like having arcs started (eg the Sadeas murder) which then seem to have been dropped. I don't currently see why Adolin had to kill Sadeas rather than have the murder either stay unsolved or another person kill him? Very little of OB would have changed. All I can see is that by committing murder, Adolin was able to avoid responsibility (ie becoming king) that he didn't want in the first place. That feels...... too neat? I still have hope that these unresolved issues might be addressed in the future. For me, given that the arcs have been started, something needs to happen regarding them. For example, I can't see Ialai dropping her own investigation into the murder of her husband (we know she has spies in Urithiru) so perhaps it will still come back to bite him. I do agree though that I would have liked more insight into Adolin's feelings on it. We get a brief look at him wondering if he is ashamed or proud, but thats it until we see him appear proud (from Shallans PoV) when he admits it to Dalinar without any idea how he got there. I must admit that I actually disliked Adolin in that moment - I guess I just don't think it is ok to feel fine about killing any person. Perhaps I would feel differently if we'd seen more of his thoughts . *shrugs* 

I never once compared Adolin's childhood to Renarin's. All I said is Adolin's life hasn't been peaches and cakes, the fact it might have been worst for other people doesn't change the fact it wasn't peaches and cakes for Adolin. Within the flashbacks, we have seen Dalinar ignore Renarin, this is true, we have seen Dalinar be a decent father for Adolin for a few years, this is also right, but we did not see how Renarin's life really was back in Kholinar. So while Dalinar was an awful father to him and ignored him, by all means, everyone else didn't ignore Renarin as shown by Jasnah's behavior towards him. We also have a WoB which confirms Adolin once was jealous of the attention Renarin got. Obviously this wasn't attention for Dalinar, but it can allow us to suppose Renarin got a lot of attention, either from his mother or from his other in-laws, so while Adolin's life wasn't all peaches and cakes, Renarin's life wasn't all hardness and despair.

The fact Dalinar might have been a worst father for Renarin doesn't change the fact Adolin did witness his mother being assassinated, his father did turn into a drunk who rejected him, his father did hate him, his father did turn out cold on him preferring to order him around which young Adolin, as highlighted by the flashback, took as attention. I really do not know what Renarin is doing in here: my main point of discussion is a lot happened to Adolin and this lot is too much to make him a plausible "steady and normal" individual. Think about it as if it were real-life, would you think people growing up with a drunk father, a mother dead through abnormal circumstances who confused stern reprisal as love can realistically be as "steady and normal" as people growing up in a family with two loving parents, nurturing them and encouraging them to be all they can be? Seriously? I am supposed to believe Adolin's life is so normal and so event-less it is perfectly plausible, normal and believable he's just the picture perfect depiction of the well-adapted, steady, strong guy who's greatest hardships was when he scratched his knee as a boy?

What Renarin may or may not have gone through is honestly irrelevant: it doesn't take away from what Adolin has gone through.

I am perfectly aware a lot of readers don't find Adolin interesting and, after reading OB, I cannot fault them for it. He could have been grown into such an interesting character... *Sigh*. What I disagree with is the idea his character is plausible given the backstory the author gave him. Adolin is everything but a normal guy, so to think he serves this purpose into the story is really not a good narrative choice.

This being said, I do agree with you, considering how little came out of it, having Adolin murdered Sadeas served no plot purpose. Sadeas could have been killed by basically anyone with the same result which is why I think Brandon made the wrong choice. Having Adolin killed Sadeas opened the door for many potential story arcs, if he wasn't going to use them, then he should have used a more minor character to kill him, someone nobody cares about, then the lack of follow-up wouldn't have bothered anyone. Even Adolin using it as an excuse to not become the next king is weak plotting: Adolin could have use basically any excuse not to be king. This isn't pay-off, this was a very weak narrative: at least if it had barred him from becoming the next Highprince, then it would have been something but no.

As much as I would love for this arc not to be over and for Brandon to find a way to make it satisfying by using it into the next book, I will not wager a lot on it. It is highly unlikely Brandon will ever broach the subject of Ialai or Sadeas again. Truth is, he never planned to. I just wonder why he thought he could write Adolin killing him with so little aftermath and think the readers will believe this is a good narrative. 

5 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So I think we need to divide squires into those who can surgebind, and those who cannot (yet anyway). It is clear that Kaladin got squires in but not all started glowing immediately. We also see some who were with Bridge 4 take longer than others to get to glowing. Look at Hobber - he is really close to Kaladin in terms of his loyalty, and clearly Kaladin values him because of the way he tries to teach Hobber himself. I think Hobber wasn't ready in some way so whilst he was a squire in name, he wasn't glowing because he wasn't bonded fully. I think this likely happens with each of the orders. 

Just saying the words will be enough if you are already living the 1st ideal, but if you've said the words but don't yet understand them, you won't glow.  So with Lyn, presumably something abut how she viewed both herself and the ideals allowed her to glow almost immediately. Presumably though, whatever it is about her that allows her to be a glowing squire, is not enough for her to have attracted her own spren. My guess is, that as she is based on a real person, she probably won't become a full radiant.

If people agree, I think we need to come up with a way to describe squires that have been accepted into an Order that don't have stormlight yet, and those that do have stormlight. It would allow us to pick apart the defining differences. Any ideas?

The reason I brought up the first ideal was because people argued Adolin couldn't be a Radiant because he "didn't live by the first oath". My take is this is a tenuous argument at best as basically anyone can be seen as living by the first ideal. Worst, if I am to state it, I would think someone like Renarin absolutely does not live by the first ideal: he doesn't obey to the "strength before weakness" oath as he always allowed his weakness to rule over him nor does he obey to the "journey before destination" because he never wanted to work for what he wants, always dropping when it became too hard. The Renarin we saw in WoR really wasn't the picture perfect representation of the first ideal and yet he passed the test. His example by itself tells me it is a very loose interpretation most people could fill in.

Lyn is an example of someone who, it seems, only wanted to powers and the belonging. She was very eager and this was enough.

Thus to me, becoming a squire is more a matter of having a Radiant being willing to take you in (Kaladin took Lyn in) then you having done anything in particular.

3 hours ago, Edvarin said:

I think theres a war going on inside Adolin. He wants to be a Radiant, but if he swears the oaths, he might lose his bond with Maya. He's been talking to his sword for years. Its not a Nahel Bond, but still a bond. He knows Radiants can't hold a dead sprens Shardblade. Especially after meeting her. And now she's talking to him? Just her name, but still. Book 4 will find him searching for a way to revive Maya, for certain.

If there is a war going on inside Adolin's head, then Brandon hasn't done a good job of writing it. That's the problem with Adolin's character: so much could be written for him, so many interesting angles could be broached, but none really are.

I wouldn't put pass Brandon to have Adolin say oaths and revive Maya during the time gap.

[Edvarin]

10 minutes ago, maxal said:

4 hours ago, Edvarin said:

I think theres a war going on inside Adolin. He wants to be a Radiant, but if he swears the oaths, he might lose his bond with Maya. He's been talking to his sword for years. Its not a Nahel Bond, but still a bond. He knows Radiants can't hold a dead sprens Shardblade. Especially after meeting her. And now she's talking to him? Just her name, but still. Book 4 will find him searching for a way to revive Maya, for certain.

If there is a war going on inside Adolin's head, then Brandon hasn't done a good job of writing it. That's the problem with Adolin's character: so much could be written for him, so many interesting angles could be broached, but none really are.

I wouldn't put pass Brandon to have Adolin say oaths and revive Maya during the time gap.

I think maybe Adolin doesn't even know it yet. He's not the brightest and I doubt he completely made the connection until he went to Shadesmar and figured out who Maya was. I expect to see it more clearly in the 4th book.

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Edvarin said:

I think maybe Adolin doesn't even know it yet. He's not the brightest and I doubt he completely made the connection until he went to Shadesmar and figured out who Maya was. I expect to see it more clearly in the 4th book.

On the contrary, I personally think Adolin is quite bright: the amount of military and tactical thinking he does is just impressive. He is no simpleton. He never once broached the topic of wanting to be a Radiant or not and if I agree with you, it would seem natural his character would ask himself the question, it was not feature in the book. Brandon has done a great deal lot of work to make sure Adolin would be as uni-dimensional as possible as he skipped on basically everything which could have given him layers and depth.

I no longer expect anything out of Adolin's character. I expect him to revive Maya, but I don't expect to get realistic validation as to how his spirit web is broken, I don't expect to get to read him feeling broken, nor to read extraordinary explanations as to why he fits the Edgedancer's order. I expect the readers will have to fill in the holes, speculate on the unsaid and hope they come close enough to the truth.

[Edvarin]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

On the contrary, I personally think Adolin is quite bright: the amount of military and tactical thinking he does is just impressive. He is no simpleton.

You're right, he is very knowledgeable about warfare, which is very Alethi and makes sense. I guess I let Shallans opinion of him sway me. And don't get me wrong, Adolins one of my favorite characters. I can't wait to see him Bond Maya!

[maxal]

14 minutes ago, Edvarin said:

You're right, he is very knowledgeable about warfare, which is very Alethi and makes sense. I guess I let Shallans opinion of him sway me. And don't get me wrong, Adolins one of my favorite characters. I can't wait to see him Bond Maya!

Shallan revises her opinion of him when he shows up with books he not only read, but appreciated. Adolin has a lot of knowledge, he just doesn't readily display it, not unless he has to. In Dalinar's flashbacks, little Adolin seemed quite bright too.

The Maya arc is the only thing able to compensate how Brandon took his character and made him so uninteresting. 

[Darvys]

Adolin the youth doesn't quite match the Adolin "i'm only good at swords" we've been seeing, but i guess that's what growing up in Alethkar as a soldier does to you. Still, i get annoyed when Brandon goes out of his way to portray him as slow of thought ( the reaction to Kaladin's joke, really ? ). Not easy to portray varying levels of intellect convincingly, i was glad when he skipped Jasnah's essay and just gave us the readers' reactions.

As for Adolin not questioning his lack of Nahel bond, isn't it a thing for him to think of himself as a lesser man than everyone assumes ? If anything attracting a spren is what would throw him off balance. From what i saw in this forum, a lot of you guys want everything in a text you can quote, but some things are just better left unsaid.

Then there's Sadeas, i've been over this a couple times already, but why would you guys expect him to agonize over his death ? The morality of murder ? He butchered hundreds of Parshendi during the war, the act of taking a life isn't what will give him pause, it's the justification of the act, in this case he realizes he did what needed to be done, all he needed was a little time after the fact to settle his nerves, that's what he got. What more do you need ?

 

I'm still on the fence about squires though. Yes we saw the Skybreakers test a bunch of hopefuls, but we don't know how they selected those, we've come up with some theories that could really fit, but we'll have to wait to find out how it all works.

As for Lyn, the argument of her becoming a squire because Kaladin chose her falls flat when you remember that the ligheyed captain Colot (k ?) also joined their ranks, Kaladin certainly didn't choose him, he even reflexivly suggested that lighteyes should be left out of the testing. Right now, i'll settle for squireship requiring you to have an understanding and willingness to uphold what the order in question stands for and that you indeed do have to be "broken". Yeah, some of you will disagree with the last bit, but it would make no sense for squireship to escape a cosmeric rule. i saw the theory that becoming a squire somehow molds your spiritweb to fit the investiture, but that's as baseless as theories can go, i'll wait to know more. And just keep in mind that just because Lyn and the rest don't look broken doesn't mean they aren't, Shallan is a prime example of what a cheery facade can hide (i'm not emplying they're hiding similar horror, i'm on the camp believing that our heros are on the extreme side).