jefftucker0525 Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 i didnt look to see if anyone already pointed this out, but I think that Lift thought the 2nd ideal of the Edgedancers "I will remember those that have been forgotten". Seems pretty legit to me, but do you think she's spoken the 1st ideal or what? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 At some point, probably. She's been with Wyndle a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) I don't think she has. She doesn't think of herself as a Radiant. I doubt the First Ideal even grants a power boost. It seems to me like it was a unifying theme for the Knights Radiant, not Surgebinders in general. I doubt Jasnah even spoke the First Ideal (she seems slightly slanted towards destination-before-journey), since she rejects the label of Knight Radiant, but it would not surprise me one bit to find that she had spoken one of the Ideals of her Order. Also: do you have to speak the Ideals in order? I'm curious if we have any evidence either way on this. I don't recall any WoBs or evidence in the books, but I suspect based on Kaladin speaking the Second Ideal (as he calls it) that it had to be in order. The odds would be higher for him to speak the 3/4/5th Ideals before the 2nd if he could do it out of order. Edited February 24, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think that the Ideals are a logical progression, so it is very difficult to realise one out of order. So Kaladin would have to know that he wants to protect those who cannot protect themselves before he can decide he wants to uphold his next ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftucker0525 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think that the Ideals are a logical progression, so it is very difficult to realise one out of order. So Kaladin would have to know that he wants to protect those who cannot protect themselves before he can decide he wants to uphold his next ideal. This makes sense to me. It seems like the ideals just kinda float into yourmind and so I assume its in order, plus when Kaladin says the 2nd ideal isnt it specifically stated as the 2nd ideal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Lift says she "used words" to "capture" Wyndle. Wyndle was probably trailing Lift for a while before the "capture", so the bond could've already been strong enough for Lift to instinctively recite the First Ideal. Or... someone could've told her that "Life before death, etc." were the words used to capture "Voidbringers" like the one following her around, or something. She wouldn't necessarily have to know the connection of those words to the Knights. Edited February 25, 2014 by skaa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayden Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I dont think Shallan has yet, I think its part mindset and partly to do with a dire situation, At least until things have been set up formally, Dalinar has heard some of the words in his head during a battle scene, im 99% sure that I remember him hearing them and wondering whose voice that was. Will need to go through and check, if this is the case then it gives an interesting facet to the ideals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don_karma_II Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Lift says she "used words" to "capture" Wyndle. Wyndle was probably trailing Lift for a while before the "capture", so the bond could've already been strong enough for Lift to instinctively recite the First Ideal. Or... someone could've told her that "Life before death, etc." were the words used to capture "Voidbringers" like the one following her around, or something. She wouldn't necessarily have to know the connection of those words to the Knights.So it is possible that Lift has said more than two ideals. Maybe it's her third. Mind you for Kaladin first ideal kinda did nothing but the second ideal gave Him better storm light retention. So when she says 'captured with words' it can mean She felt the difference when she said the words and hence could've been her second ideal which captured her 'voidbringer' for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 When Kaladin spoke the words there was a blast of light and thunder, when you speak it verbally is it more powerful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 When Kaladin spoke the words there was a blast of light and thunder, when you speak it verbally is it more powerful? My favorite theory about that is that he was using the Pressure Surge instinctively to make a mini-explosion. I don't think it has anything to do with speaking the words verbally; it was just that the Stormlight he had became more efficient for him suddenly and so he had to get rid of it somehow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taveren Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 that does sound like it would be an ideal we don't know how these ideals work yet to draw conclusions on whether they all have dramatic effects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavien Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I dont think Shallan has yet, I think its part mindset and partly to do with a dire situation, Based off the two we have seen, another way to put it is "your mindset when making a choice in a dire situation." Both Kaladin and Lift have very specific reasons for making the choices they did, even though one of the results of that choice is similar (putting themselves at risk to save another). Kaladin had also been protecting those who couldn't protect themselves for a while, it wasn't until it was internalized/verbalized that it had an effect. The "why" seems more important than the "what." Though to be fair, he hadn't risked his life to the same extent until the Tower. If we hadn't seen Kaladin use a Full Lashing at the rain barrel or Lift make seeds grow to open a window I would almost think that saying the Ideal is what picks your second Surge: the reason for your choice picks the next step on your path. I still think there is some truth to this just not to what Surges you have access to, maybe that is how "evil" Surgebinders are made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 When Kaladin spoke the words there was a blast of light and thunder, when you speak it verbally is it more powerful? I always thought so. There's a voice that urges him to not just think them, but to speak them aloud. It was quite emphatic actually. There's something there about that, but haven't figured out what that is. Maybe it's akin to writing down measurements of spren, in which such an action holds the spren to those measurements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralus Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 Thought it was interesting that when Kaladin spoke THE WORDS, it said "the second ideal of The Knights Radiant" and during the Lift interlude it referred to the Edgedancers specifically. Obviously Brandon already had all the orders planned out, so maybe it was just eliminating confusion for dramatic effect? It worked, for sure. I still can't read that scene without getting emotional :-P 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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