189 posts in this topic

On 8/6/2017 at 10:22 PM, Idealistic said:

Marsh has 22 spikes so he has most allomantic powers (some of them twice) and at least some feruchemical, I agree that if he can compound steel he would win, but I think we haven't see him use feruchemical steel, if he could use him he would have kill Elend in a blink.

 

this is because in mistborn era 1 compounding wasn't KNOWN about, in era 2, however, when he is known as "ironeyes" (ya'know, what's believed to be the literal embodiment of DEATH) was shown to just "appear in an eyeblink" and when marasi turned back, he was gone... (He did a batman!) this seems alot like feruchemical steel

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53 minutes ago, Nohadon said:

this is because in mistborn era 1 compounding wasn't KNOWN about, in era 2, however, when he is known as "ironeyes" (ya'know, what's believed to be the literal embodiment of DEATH) was shown to just "appear in an eyeblink" and when marasi turned back, he was gone... (He did a batman!) this seems alot like feruchemical steel

Considering that Marsh was being directly controlled by Ruin most of the time, the argument that compounding wasn't known is a weak one. 

Brandon could have left it out for narrative reasons, but Ruin not understanding the interplay of the powers he was using seems... Heavily flawed. Especially considering TLR used compounding heavily. 

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1 hour ago, Nohadon said:

this is because in mistborn era 1 compounding wasn't KNOWN about, in era 2, however, when he is known as "ironeyes" (ya'know, what's believed to be the literal embodiment of DEATH) was shown to just "appear in an eyeblink" and when marasi turned back, he was gone... (He did a batman!) this seems alot like feruchemical steel

Under Ruin influency he should know about compounding.

Maybe you are right about disappear, but I still think we didn't see use f-steel in WoA or HoA, he could use iron/steel with duralumin, that could send him pretty far, pretty fast.

Edited by Idealistic
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Even if I misremember about Marshs fight scene with Sazed, I think it likely that he has F-steel. Ruin picked him as his main Inquisitor, and had a lot of Feruchemical spikes around. I doubt that he decided not to grant Marsh the power. 

I wish I had my copy of WoR, but it is sadly in Poland, and I am in Sweden... anyway, @Calderis, I apologize for (maybe) accidentally misleading you about the fight with Sazed. Seems like you might need to edit your post again :-)

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@Toaster Retribution no worries. I'd already started leading myself down that path anyway. It's not like this is anything more than fun. 

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With the tide firmly against me I humbly withdraw denth and yield my match to vin.

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there is a small problem, however, we need one more fight for the tournament, as the brackets are unbalanced right now (preferably 3 more fights to get it to 16 but beggars can't be choosers) so I'll create a fight.

Lyaltil from scadrial (Mentioned by someone i have unfortunately forgotten) Vs Zane (A character i was going to enter until i thought of elend)

the winner of this fight will fight the winner of Kelsier Vs Elend

Also know that hemalurgy CAN steal a nahel bond, but the person has to either deal with a very annoying spren, or won't recieve the surges unless compatible. but in the pretence of a death battle tournament, we'll go with the former and say that hemalurigsts like marsh and zane can steal surgebinding

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13 minutes ago, Nohadon said:

there is a small problem, however, we need one more fight for the tournament, as the brackets are unbalanced right now (preferably 3 more fights to get it to 16 but beggars can't be choosers) so I'll create a fight.

Lyaltil from scadrial (Mentioned by someone i have unfortunately forgotten) Vs Zane (A character i was going to enter until i thought of elend)

the winner of this fight will fight the winner of Kelsier Vs Elend

Also know that hemalurgy CAN steal a nahel bond, but the person has to either deal with a very annoying spren, or won't recieve the surges unless compatible. but in the pretence of a death battle tournament, we'll go with the former and say that hemalurigsts like marsh and zane can steal surgebinding

But neither Marsh nor Zane have shown proper knowledge of bindpoints and so on. OK maybe Marsh but I doubt Zane does.

I'll put my money on Zane for that fight since we haven't seen anything from Iyatil at this point.

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51 minutes ago, Nohadon said:

Lyaltil from scadrial (Mentioned by someone i have unfortunately forgotten) Vs Zane (A character i was going to enter until i thought of elend)

Iyatil is definitely a skilled combatant, but I don't think she's up to fighting a Mistborn with enhanced steel control. 

Winner: Zane 

52 minutes ago, Nohadon said:

Also know that hemalurgy CAN steal a nahel bond, but the person has to either deal with a very annoying spren, or won't recieve the surges unless compatible. but in the pretence of a death battle tournament, we'll go with the former and say that hemalurigsts like marsh and zane can steal surgebinding

It may be able to steal the bond but in most cases it just means a dead spren the moment the spike is placed. 

Additionally you'd need knowledge of the correct bind points to steal the bond, and at this point in time, we know of no one with the knowledge to take non-scadrian abilities. 

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Zane would slaughter Iyatil, at least from the info we have right now.

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THE NEXT BRACKETS HAVE BEEN DECIDED

 

Kaladin Vs Arclo              

                                Arclo Vs Raoden

Vasher Vs Raoden
 
Marsh Vs Jasnah 
                              Marsh Vs Vin (Marsh has stolen Jasnah's nahel bond, so either (A) he has soulcasting or (B) the spren dies, giving him a shardblade)
 
Vin Vs Denth 
                                      
Kelsier Vs Elend 
                                     Zane Vs Kelsier
          Lyalitil Vs Zane
         
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Arclo vs Raoden: I am inclined to give this too Raoden. He can teleport to avoid the cremlings, and fire should be effective against them.

Marsh vs Vin: Marsh with a shardblade and maybe steel compounding would stomp Vin.

Zane vs Kelsier: Zane is... well, inzane. Kell is too clever, and too skilled for him. 

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Does Marsh know the bind points for stealing a nahel bond?

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4 hours ago, Nohadon said:

(Marsh has stolen Jasnah's nahel bond, so either (A) he has soulcasting or (B) the spren dies, giving him a shardblade)

how is this possible? Marsh can't steal nahel bonds as far as we know

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15 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Arclo vs Raoden: I am inclined to give this too Raoden. He can teleport to avoid the cremlings, and fire should be effective against them.

Marsh vs Vin: Marsh with a shardblade and maybe steel compounding would stomp Vin.

Zane vs Kelsier: Zane is... well, inzane. Kell is too clever, and too skilled for him. 

Agree with everything, Raoden could burn Arclo's cremlings, Vin has no chance against an almost full compuonder with a shardblade, and Zane needs a spike to do what kelsier can do on his own.

Edited by Idealistic
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I don't think Marsh necessarily has to steal the bond, couldn't he take the shardblade once Jasnah dies anyway? ( not sure if that's how it works for living spren or not.)

I agree with Marsh, Roaden, and Kelsier being the winners for the reasons already stated. Sorry Vin. :( I think if Marsh doesn't have the shardblade, he still wins because of the healing factor and because she only beat him in the first place with the mists.

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Just now, Taliax said:

I don't think Marsh necessarily has to steal the bond, couldn't he take the shardblade once Jasnah dies anyway? ( not sure if that's how it works for living spren or not.)

If Jasnah dies without betray her oaths, she won't drop a shardblade, I think there is a WoB on the matter.

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2 minutes ago, Idealistic said:

If Jasnah dies without betray her oaths, she won't drop a shardblade, I think there is a WoB on the matter.

Oh okay, thanks C: I think Marsh would still win, but I don't think he knows enough to steal a Nahel bond and get a shardblade. I just think F-steel plus F-gold wins it for him.

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Arclo vs. Raoden: the end events of Elantris imply a pretty ridiculous healing ability for Elantrians, so I'll have to agree with what's been said already and give it to Raoden. Even if he can't fully avoid damage, fires going to be a good bet against Arclo and we've seen Elantrians heal from burns, so he doesn't need to be discriminatory. 

Winner: Raoden

Marsh vs Vin: I'm undecided. Without knowing for sure what abilities Marsh has I can't just hand it to him. He probably has F-gold, but I doubt he's a Compounder there. Unless Ruin gave it to him, inquisitors had no need of A-gold. 

The F-Steel question is what decides it. If he doesn't have it, Vin knows how to kill inquisitors, and has taken them out herself before. The only time she was pressed hard she had what, 11 of them on her? Including Marsh? 

If he has F-Steel he wins, if not, Vin all the way. 

Winner: Vin, Marsh, per @Toaster Retribution's confirmation of F-Steel from HoA

Zane Vs. Kelsier: no question Kel. He's devious without being unshakeable. They both use tricks, they're both reckless, but Zane has far worse judgement. 

Winner: Kelsier. 

Edited by Calderis
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Arclo vs Raoden: Raoden has fire, teleports, and heals, whereas Arclo has fryable bugs and stuff.

Marsh vs Vin: Marsh wins. Even though Vin does have some experience fighting Inquisitors, the time where she destroys a bunch of them is because she draws upon the mist. Assuming she doesn't get influence from Preservation's power or anything this time, Marsh has some Feruchemy and also Allomancy so Marsh wins.

Zane vs Kelsier: Zane has a lot of raw power, but Kelsier is devious and has more control and skill. Still, it's not like Zane doesn't have any skill at all, and I think just the power factor alone might be enough to tip it in his favor.

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Arclo vs Raoden: I'm not so quick to give it to Raoden here. For one thing, we have no idea how old Arclo is, and from the spoilers we've seen from Oathbringer ... well, it appears that the Sleepless have more than just one trick up their sleeve. He has no doubt survived much of his long life by avoiding attention where possible, but he's given the throwdown on two Skybreakers at once. That said, here's how I think it plays out. They confront each other, and Raoden goes Aons-berserk on Arclo, who promply splits himself into his hoardlings (we assume to kill Raoden). Before we say that Raoden can't possibly be hurt, remember he had a hard time healing himself once he was injured (by a simple knife, mind you, not some potentially-Invested hoards of cremlings specialized to do Domi-knows-what to people Arclo doesn't like), whereas our Sleepless friend took out two Radiants with one of the most over-powered regen bonuses since Gandalf got sent back from the doors of death with a staff upgrade. They didn't have to draw out any sort of Aon to heal themselves, they literally only had to breath in. So did his hoadlings just overload their healing abilities (which I find unlikely), or ... did they suck out their Investiture?

Ponder on that. We've already established there is an animal on Roshar that eats Potential Investiture (I believe it's not Kinetic when a Radiant is holding it in, right?). Is it so hard to imagine that a Sleepless might have hoardlings in their employ to combat the Radiants? Even if they aren't able to suck out Raoden's innate resurrection investiture (which I know far too little about for my liking, to be honest) then they certainly would go after his Aons. If Raoden can't fry them or teleport away fast enough before the first wave hits him, then he's completely at the mercy of those bugs.

However, we've established that Raoden is fast. Given that, I think he manages to avoid the attacks from the bugs and deals the death blow to Arclo (if such a thing is truly possible, because again, we don't know quite enough about his nature or abilities). Winner: Raoden.

Marsh vs Vin: guys, I don't even have to tell you what happened the last time Vin went against Marsh. She beat him. Soundly. And that was with Marsh fighting against Ati who was forcing him to kill her in the first place. Plus, the last time he was using F-steel it still didn't seem to do him much good. So if we assume that Marsh has the same number of spikes as the last time he faced her down, and assuming they both have equal amounts of metals, I can't see this going very well for him. Except for if he has Soulcasting or a Shardblade. Those would be tricky. But Vin has faced down unique and new threats on the fly before. She is smart. And she is strong. She is a natural Mistborn, and Marsh is a patchwork job. Stealing powers makes you strong, but not skilled. No matter what time frame we put him in, I think Vin is going to beat him in an all-out battle. That said, if he can Leech her reserves and get a lucky strike with the Shardblade (which, if she's burning Pewter, would she be Invested enough to block the blade, or is that not how Shardblades work and am I just a babbling cretin?) then he would be able to take her out. But Vin (assuming we bring her back from the dead) has held the powers of creation and used them to fuel someone else's Allowmancy before. And she's curious. Give her the metal reserves, she's going to burn them and find out what they do. Maybe not fast enough to counter all of Marsh's assaults, but enough to land a decisive, finishing blow and pull out that last eye-spike or the linchpin spike. All in all, Vin is a killing machine. And she has an uncanny knack of winning even when she shouldn't. I just have to give this to her. Winner: Vin.

Zane vs Kelsier: Again, Allowmancy is about the dirty tricks. Zane is strong, but Kelsier isn't kandra-crap insane with a spike through his chest, so he's got that going for him right off the bat. Kelsier isn't cheap in the power department either. He killed a rusting Inquisitor. He's faced legions of Hazekillers. Zane? He's manipulated Vin and shot a few men with come coins. Yes, he did lay waste to Cett's soldiers, but that was with Atium. He won't have the edge this time. Given what I've seen of Kelsier (smart, cool, collected, not entirely crazy, and incredibly devious) and what I've seen of Zane (creepy, conniving, backstabbing, very entirely crazy) it seems obvious to me that Zane doesn't stand a chance. He's a strong Mistborn, but strong doesn't cut it in Allowmancy. Smart does. Winner: Kelsier.

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@Shadowmancer You make a good point about Vin, considering also that hemalurgy's stolen powers are at least slightly weaker than the original. I think the reason I keep thinking Marsh has F-steel is because an Inquisitor qt the beginning of HoA had it, and I expected Marsh to have every power the other Inquisitors did. If he doesn't have that or a shardblade, Vin could win. I think she did actually defeat most of the Inquisitors in HoA before drawing on the mist, because she couldn't do that until Marsh ripped out her earring. The fact that Marsh has a known weakness in the linchpin spike does increase her chances.

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@Calderis @Taliax

Just looked in HoA. Marsh has F-speed. He uses it against Goradel. Flash-Marsh confirmed.

Quote from book

Quote

However, Marsh tapped speed. He suddenly moved several times faster than a normal person, and he easily dodged the slice, instead planting a kick in the soldiers chest.

HoA p. 611

 

Edited by Toaster Retribution
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12 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Calderis @Taliax

Just looked in HoA. Marsh has F-speed. He uses it against Goradel. Flash-Marsh confirmed.

Quote from book

 

Ah.  In this case, I would probably give it to Marsh in a fair fight; if there were shenanigans involved, Vin might still  pull through.  After all, she did beat Zane when he was using atium.  She could potentially wear out his speed through trickery, not sure though.   I'm kind of just throwing out stuff on both sides now.  I'm too indecisive to be much good at this.  Too much like Ham I guess :P

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Calderis @Taliax

Just looked in HoA. Marsh has F-speed. He uses it against Goradel. Flash-Marsh confirmed.

Quote from book

 

Thanks for closing that debate. 

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