Not Enough Time

[Benjibooboo]

Is anyone else worried that there doesn't seem to be enough time for any realistic improvements to the overall situation?

If the message on Daliners wall is anything to go by we have around 2 months before something bad happens. This for me means that many of the situations we want to unfold May indeed not.

Things like Kaladin being a match for Seth. Seth has had years of training with his abilities, that much is evident in how he fights. In two months, with a million other responsibilities and not much time to practice, Kaladin simply will not have enough time to be anywhere near ready to confront Seth and win. I'm not saying that Seth necessarily has so arrive in that two month period but at the rate time is going by (especially with the flashbacks) it may be that at the end of the book we are at the two month mark and may not see the fight atall.

Maybe it's just me but I think for the sake of a realistic story we need the new found radiants (assuming Dalinar and Kaladin succeed in founding them again) to have a long time to train. In the past radiants had years and years to train and use their skills and 9 out of 10 ppl died even then. How is the world going to fair with a handful of amateur radiants? Not well I think. Thoughts?

[EvilKetchupCow]

9/10 dead was before the KR. So it is still likely with amateur radiants we wouldn't see 9/10 dead in a desolation. But this isn't a desolation, this is the Everstorm. So who knows.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I'm not really worried about there not being enough time for Kaladin to train. There has been more than enough evidence to show he is an extraordinary fighter and is good at adapting to new situations. He faced a shard bearer with just a spear and won. In the most recent excerpt he showed he can be creative with his new abilities. He's also already learned about full lashings and reverse lashings. He just needs to figure out partial lashings and he at least understands all of Szeth's abilities, thus can adapt to them.

Even if he isn't as profient as Szeth, with that much knowledge, his natural fighting skill, and (in my opinion) him being stronger in raw power due to being an actual bonded radiant, I see him having no troubles holding his own.

Edited February 2, 2014 by aWESomeness summoned

[vikorr]

I think you're missing some things. The reason that Szeth was able to kill so many people can be broken down into a number of categories :

-------------------------------------

A. Prevention of movement :

 

Benefit's include keeping victims still & keeping attackers from you.

 

This won't work with Kaladin. This attribute is even / nullified.

--------------------------------------

 

B. Stormlight infused advantage : 

 

Benefits include being faster & stronger than normal, healing

 

Short Term : Most likely Kaladin has the advantage here, as his stormlight works better.

 

Long Term : Kaladin has a definite advantage, being able to hold stormlight for much longer than Szeth

 

------------------------------------

C. Use of Lashing on himself to change orientation :

 

Szeth has an advantage here...but the advantage itself can be broken down into a few different sub categories ;

Ca: it's hard combating what you haven't fought before - this is a definite advantage

Cb: ranged mobility: this advantage is in bypassing defenders (jumping over them, running around them on walls etc), and is most useful for slaughtering large numbers. It terms a one on one fight with Kaladin though - this advantage is mostly not present, as he has to bec close enough to kill.

 

---------------------------------------

 

D. Surprise

 

Already mentioned in Ca, but a way is needed to show there will be surprise on both sides:

 

In terms of Szeth surprising Kaladin - Kaladin in turn also has an advantage of surprise. As soon as Kaladin sees szeth infuse (and realises Szeth is the assassin in white) - Kaladin will infuse everything remaining in the area...Szeth can't help but be surprised by this. 

 

This could become a huge advantage to Kaladin...but only once Szeth's stormlight fails before Kaladins, and only if no more spheres enter the combat picture.

 

-----------------------------------

Honorblade / shardblade - this advantage is all Szeths...and is a distinct advantage unless he runs out of stormlight.

 

.................................

E. Pressure surge

 

This could be all Kaladin's advantage, as we haven't seen Szeth use it, but we've seen Kaladin do so twice (when he fell from the bridge into the chasm, and when he jumped of the bridge across the chasm)

………………………..

 

F. Fighting skill :

 

Szeth is a master of unarmed combat, while Kaladin is a master of the spear, and also very good at unarmed combat (reference the section where as a bridgeman he met his new brightlord, and thought about how he could take down 4 spearmen)

 

Skill : unarmed is probably Szeths advantage, while armed is probably Kaladins advantage

 

As any fight between the two will involve weapons, skill is probably in Kaladins favour...but this would have to be referenced against Szeths advantage in changing direction.

 

So, on the scorecard we have :

 

A.    Nullified / even

B.    Short Term : Believed to be Kaladin’s advantage + Long Term : Kaladin’s advantage

C.   Ca: Szeth’s advantage, Cb not much to Szeth

D.   Kaladin’s surprise advantage

E.    Kaladin’s surprise & advantage

F.    too close to call.

 

The score then is Szeth 1 : Kaladin 3

 

Comments : A not scored for being even/nullified, F not scored for being to close to call. Same for below.

 

But they can also be broken down into physical & surprise advantage and the score would respectively be : Szeth 1+1 : Kaladin 1+2…but with Szeth possessing the far superior weapon.

 

Any way you start breaking down the combat attributes, it’s a rather even short term fight, with a definite long term advantage to Kaladin.

Edited February 2, 2014 by vikorr

[The Count]

A nice analysis Vikorr...

However, while it may come out 3:1 in Kaladins favour, I do not think all your points have ther same weighting.

Szeths possession of the Shardblade is a massive advantage over Kaladins spear.

Kaladin has to land a killing blow on Szeth or Szeth's stormlight will heal him.

Szeth, on the other hand will seriously cripple Kaladin with a single scratch.

Also Szeth can parry Kaladin and chop his spear to pieces.

So the 1 Szeth has really is a significant advantage.

[vikorr]

However, while it may come out 3:1 in Kaladins favour, I do not think all your points have ther same weighting.

 

 

I agree...mine was a long enough post as it, and I didn't want to get too bogged down in the maths, so I left this part out.

 

Szeths possession of the Shardblade is a massive advantage over Kaladins spear. 

Kaladin has to land a killing blow on Szeth or Szeth's stormlight will heal him.

Szeth, on the other hand will seriously cripple Kaladin with a single scratch.

 

 

Yep, although as Szeth shows in his Jah Kaved fight - speed, agility, and the surges can help overcome the shardblade advantage.

 

The shardblade is therefore a short term (but distinct) advantage in terms of weapons and danger...that diminishes (but is still great) once Kaladin's greater stormlight retention kicks in.

 

But it is not the only danger , nor the only tactical advantage - on either side.

 

The point of my post was that it is not all one way traffic, even at present. There are a number of scenario's where Kaladin could win, even as is...and a number where Szeth could win.

Edited February 2, 2014 by vikorr

[Everstorm]

I think Szeth is the least of Kaladin's problems. From whatever we know of his abilities, he seems to be much more proficient at using Stormlight than Szeth. Think Darth Sidious vs Mace Windu. The Force > The Lightsaber . 

 

Dealing with Thunderclasts and Chasmfiends and other things which require Shardblades to slay are probably going to be much much more of a problem if the strongest (combat-wise) Radiant of the age doesn't even have an infused weapon, let alone enough people who could back him up. 

 

The difference (if in fact this story has a happy ending) is probably going to be the Voidbringers/Listeners/Parshendi. If it's just humans vs everyone else, I don't see it ending well. If on the other hand, it is everyone vs Odium...

[vikorr]

Dealing with Thunderclasts and Chasmfiends and other things which require Shardblades to slay are probably going to be much much more of a problem if the strongest (combat-wise) Radiant of the age doesn't even have an infused weapon, let alone enough people who could back him up. 

 

They did survive desolations and Thunderclasts prior to the Knights Radiant (though they struggled).

 

There is this section in the Prelude, that has always intrigued me :

 

The stone ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted-out sections where Surgbinders had fought.

 

[Chlehrma]

Navani's foreshadowing seems to indicate that the countdown was actually for the parshendi assault and not the desolation.

[Crysanja]

i dont think this has anything todo with Szeth.

sure he might be there within this time, but i belive like Dalinar; that he wrote the massage himselfe.

Dalinar, vision-guided would write more about desolation, as about random human actions.

 

so i belive that it will be some event connected to Odium.

since Sly saw thouse "odd" spren, im sure it is some action of them =).

 

 

this should actualy aid Dalinars cause, a real reason to work together and bring the KR back.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 It depends on the attack. Is it just the High Prince of war the target, or is the king and the other high princes? If he has more than one target, then he has to plan it carefully. He could either attack them when they are all in one location or stage a campaign to pick them off over a course of time.

 If they are all gathered, it is likely a party, but there would be huge numbers of people to interfere/

 If he chose to create a campaign, it gives them time to prepare for some of them.

[The Count]

Szeth's instructions from Mr T are to kill Dalinar and be bloody about it.

 

That means a killing spree for guards... I think Kaladin is likely to know he is coming.

 

Maybe that will give Kaladin the edge he needs.

[Havon]

I think if Kaladin can get one of those half shard shields he may be able to nullify szeth's shardblade a bit.

[Moist_von_Lipwig]

As for Szeth v Kaladin, there's also the question of backup to take into account. At the very least we can assume that other bridge 4 members will be there. Now they may not be surge-binders (yet?), but they are still capable warriors trained by Kaladin, who crucially have some prior knowledge of Wind-runner abilities. This should allow them to make Szeth's life a lot harder if they are fighting alongside Kaladin.

 

Then there's also the question of others, particularly Adolin. Dalinar himself mentioned that Adolin was a 'genius with the blade'. Adolin with plate and blade could prove to be an opponent on par with Gavilar or better. And Gavilar almost had Szeth beat. If we have Adolin + kaladin + bridgemen guards I don't think Szeth will be winning this one.

[Moogle]

Then there's also the question of others, particularly Adolin. Dalinar himself mentioned that Adolin was a 'genius with the blade'. Adolin with plate and blade could prove to be an opponent on par with Gavilar or better. And Gavilar almost had Szeth beat. If we have Adolin + kaladin + bridgemen guards I don't think Szeth will be winning this one.

 

I think this is a very good point. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure if it applies anymore. Szeth has killed tons of Shardbearers and has a lot of practice now at doing so. His killing of two of them in a matter of seconds by abusing Lashings is something he's recognized as being incredibly effective. He even found during his duel with Gavilar that flinging things at him with Lashings was effective. I think if Szeth faces Adolin, he's not going to go toe-to-toe dueling with him, he's going to abuse Lashings more than he did with Gavilar and take Adolin out that way.

[Pinpoint]

I don't think that Szeth has access to all the surges. He isn't bonded to a spren and I think that has its draw backs.

 

Also, I think Kaladin is going to figure out that there is a surge binder after Dalinar. Szeth doesn't even know who Kaladin is.

 

Usually, Szeth has the element of suprise. This time Kaladin will be expecting many of Szeths tricks

 

Gavilar, a simple shardbearer, was able to give Szeth some trouble. I think Adolin will at least be a nuisance. 

[Havon]

Oh, and don't forget kaladin has been practicing his surgebinding against bridge 4. So bridge 4 will have experience fighting a surgebinder. It shouldn't be like shooting fish in a barrel for szeth.

[Moogle]

Oh, and don't forget kaladin has been practicing his surgebinding against bridge 4. So bridge 4 will have experience fighting a surgebinder. It shouldn't be like shooting fish in a barrel for szeth.

 

This is a good point, but Bridge Four was completely useless against Kaladin. No matter how much practice they get, they aren't going to be able to beat Kaladin or Szeth, I think. Also, Szeth can use Basic Lashings, which are something Bridge Four hasn't trained against.

[Pinpoint]

Bridge Four haven't trained against those YET.

 

I think that as long as Bridge four at least knows about Surgebinding they will be able to anticipate Szeth at least a little bit. 

[Havon]

Kaladin almost got choked out by 2 1/2 members of bridge 4 lol.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Havon

[weebojello]

A 7 foot muscular member, at that.

 

I think Dalinar's as of yet unseen spren put the notice on the wall. Looking forward to finding out! 

[KiManiak]

Then there's also the question of others, particularly Adolin...Adolin with plate and blade could prove to be an opponent on par with Gavilar or better. And Gavilar almost had Szeth beat. If we have Adolin + kaladin + bridgemen guards I don't think Szeth will be winning this one.

 

I think Adolin using his Shardplate and Blade could indeed be somewhat difficult for Szeth to deal with. 

 

Here’s the thing, though:  Why does anyone think Adolin would have his Plate on when Szeth attacks?   

(Not trying to pick on you, Moist_von_Lipwig, this is just one of the more recent quotes that reflect this opinion)

 

Adolin doesn’t lounge with his Plate on.  He only tends to have it on when leaving the camp (plateau run or hunting with the king) or when he’s preparing to duel someone.

 

Szeth was told to kill Dalinar quickly (before he unites the highprinces) and brutally, but that doesn’t mean that Szeth runs in there before assessing the situation.  The assassination could be brutal and still be contained to Dalinar’s camp, so it’s highly unlikely that Szeth attacks Dalinar during a chasm run (which Dalinar doesn’t really attend that much anymore anyway).

 

If Szeth attacks while Dalinar is in camp, then unless it’s during the time when Adolin is dueling, then I find it highly unlikely that Adolin would have his Shardplate on.

 

I agree that even without the Shardplate, Adolin would rush to his father’s defense (along with Kaladin and his guardsmen, and probably Renarin with/without his new Shardblade and mysterious spren).

 

But it appears an expectation is held that Adolin will be able to fight Szeth as a full Shardbearer, and I don’t think we should take that as a given.  It will likely be Kaladin and his guards, Adolin and Renarin (if either/both are around) and any of our other characters who may be near the Kholin compound when Szeth strikes.

 

But even factoring all of that, Szeth with a Shardblade vs. Adolin with just a Shardblade? 

 

Advantage Szeth, (likely by a lot).

[Pinpoint]

Szeth was told to kill Dalinar quickly (before he unites the highprinces) and brutally, but that doesn’t mean that Szeth runs in there before assessing the situation.  The assassination could be brutal and still be contained to Dalinar’s camp, so it’s highly unlikely that Szeth attacks Dalinar during a chasm run (which Dalinar doesn’t really attend that much anymore anyway).

 

Perfect, now all of  Kholin's soldiers are gone.

 

Maybe Dalinar will try to negotiate with Szeth. That could have an interesting turn. I doubt the negotiation would work though. That would be anti climatic

Edited February 3, 2014 by Pinpoint

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Szeth was told to kill Dalinar quickly (before he unites the highprinces) and brutally, but that doesn’t mean that Szeth runs in there before assessing the situation.  The assassination could be brutal and still be contained to Dalinar’s camp, so it’s highly unlikely that Szeth attacks Dalinar during a chasm run (which Dalinar doesn’t really attend that much anymore anyway).

I was actually thinking the opposite, that a chasm run would be the ideal time for Szeth to strike. At camp, not only does Dalinar have the personal guard but he is in the middle of literally thousands of troops. Szeth could kill him in that situation but would have an extremely difficult time getting away after the task is completed.

 

On a chasm run, though, he just waits until the troops are all engaged with the parshendi then he just has to deal with the guards. After killing Dailanar and his guards he can run in any direction across the plains without hinderance. Dalinar doesn't participate in the attacks anymore but, as seen in the WoR excerpts, he does attend them occasionally.

 

The cover for WoR somewhat backs up the location being on the plains but they aren't exactly canon either so may not be an exact depiction of the scene.

Edited February 3, 2014 by aWESomeness summoned

[Pinpoint]

I was actually thinking the opposite, that a chasm run would be the ideal time for Szeth to strike. At camp, not only does Dalinar have the personal guard but he is in the middle of literally thousands of troops. Szeth could kill him in that situation but would have an extremely difficult time getting away after the task is completed.

Although, he didn't have much trouble infiltrating and writing on Dalinar's wall