The 'Conflict' between Honorspren and Cryptics

[Macen]

So, after reading the latest chapters here. I believe the conflict between the Honorspren and Cryptics is quite obvious (correct me if I'm wrong). That they are in conflict on whether or not they should bond with humans again.

It is stated in chapter 3 of WoR:

 

“So this thing,” Shallan said, nodding to the pattern, which was spinning in circles in the center of the cabin, “is like… a prince, on their side?”

 

“Something like that. There is a complex sort of conflict between them and the honorspren. Spren politics are not something I’ve been able to devote much time to. This spren will be your companion—and will grant you the ability to Soulcast, among other things.”

And this in chapter 6:

 

 

“Before your arrival, I could assume I was an anomaly,” Jasnah said. “I could hope that Surgebindings were not returning in large numbers. I no longer have that hope. The Cryptics sent you to me, of that I have no doubt, because they knew you would need training. That gives me hope that I was at least one of the first.”

Which implied that the cryptics CHOSE Shallan (I believe that Pattern found Shallan at a young age and followed her, observing her - then had the other cryptics follow  her to see if they approved, that is why she saw tons of them the months before she entered shadesmar - but this is neither here nor there.)

This implies that the cryptics are actively trying to bond with KR candidates - at least I think that this is what this implies.



And lastly, we have this from Syl in chapter 9:

 

“There are others like you,” Syl whispered. “I do not know them, but I know that other spren are trying, in their own way, to reclaim what was lost.”

She looked to him, and her face now had its familiar form. The fleeting change had been so subtle, Kaladin wasn’t sure if he’d imagined it.

“I am the only honorspren who has come,” Syl said. “I…” She seemed to be stretching to remember. “I was forbidden. I came anyway. To find you.”

She was forbidden to come, but she came anyways. Also, she is the ONLY honorspren who has come. It must have been a big deal, because she clames she disobeyed the stormfather:

 

 

“Without the bond, I am basically one of them,” she said. “Though they don’t have the capacity to do what we do. And what we do is important. So important that I left everything, defying the Stormfather, to come. You saw him. In the storm.”

(*note* I belive this helps add some weight behind the theory that the Almighty and Stormfather are two seperate entities)

I believe this creates a solid argument, pick it apart if you can!

[18th Shard]

I noticed this too. So is Cultivation in charge of the Cryptics, as the Mother from the Lift interlude, and the Stormfather... um... well... whoever he is, in charge of the honorspren. Hmmm, and Odium is in charge of the stormspren...the desolationspren that makes storm form for the parshendi.

 

“Spren like red lightning,” Syl said softly. “Dangerous spren. Spren I haven’t seen before. I catch them in the distance, on occasion. Stormspren? Something dangerous is coming. About that, the glyphs are right.”

Uh-oh...

 

The war with the Parshendi will move into a new, dangerous phase

[Macen]

I was thinking about posting a theory about that 18th, but I felt it might be cutting into too many others theories. I don't think Stormfather and Nightmother are "Honor and Cultivation". I believe they are like 'king spren' of some sort, but I don't have enough evidence to back this up other than the fact that Syl implies Stormfather is still around.

[18th Shard]

I don't actually think that Stormfather is Honor. He kinda died or something...

[hoser]

I like this!  It makes sense as you present it. 

One caveat is that we know about Shallan in the near-present.  It is not clear to me that Syl is able to communicate w/spren in the cognitive.  Her information could be over a year old.  We don't know what honorspren are doing in the present.  Honorspren could be coming across w/honorspren blessing currently.

It seems to me that the disagreement between honorspren and Cryptics is also ancient and fundamentally based on their natures.  Given that they dominate in different cities and they seem so different, I imagine that their disagreement is more than a few years old. 

So, even if they disagreed about spren crossing over recently, they've disagreed about many things before this. 

It will be very interesting to see Syl and Pattern interact. 

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Speaking of their nature, It also makes sense, being Honor spren, that whatever the KR did in the past to betray the spren would resonate the most with them. They would be far more reluctant to begin bonding humans again than the cryptics would.

[Vortaan]

I find it interesting that Syl says Kaladin saw the Stormfather in the highstorm. We know that's a title that's used for Jezerin, the leader of the Heralds... is he hiding out in the Cognitive realm? Why?

[Chrono]

I thought that Jezrien was the Stormfather as well, but I highly doubt it now. I'm willing to guess that the face that Kaladin saw -- The Stormfather -- was a fragment of Honor left over from his Splintering, similar to how Preservation left the mists even though his mind was kabloomers. From the theory that Darkness is Nalan and Baxil's Mistress is Shalash, the Heralds seem to be rather fixed in the Physical Realm, just like regular humans. We have no idea what Jezrien is up to, but if we can run off of those two as a guide, he's probably still wandering around, doing crazy stuff.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I'm willing to guess that the face that Kaladin saw -- The Stormfather -- was a fragment of Honor left over from his Splintering, similar to how Preservation left the mists even though his mind was kabloomers.

The only thing that makes me hesitant to believe this is that if there were that much of him still present in the storms, his recordings wouldn't be as static as they are in Dalinar's visions. It seems clear from Syl's comments in chapter 9 that the stormfather commanded the honorspren not to bond people. If he has enough of himself present to direct the spren, I would imagine he could be more helpful in Dalinar's visions.

 

Edit: Plus, why would Honor tell the spren not to bond humans and also leave visions directing people to reform and unite the knights radiant.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Awesomeness summoned

[Chrono]

Yeah. I was hesitant about posting that theory, but it was the only one I could think of to explain. The only thing that I'm positive of is that Jezrien is probably not the Stormfather. Sigzil mentions that the Vorin peoples refer to Jezrien as the Stormfather, but that could just be another doctrine kerfuffle that happened as a result of the Hiereocracy. I'm banking on the Stormfather either being a powerful spren or a Splinter of Honor. To be honest, though, I'm waiting for Word of Brandon on this one.

[Vortaan]

I thought that Jezrien was the Stormfather as well, but I highly doubt it now. I'm willing to guess that the face that Kaladin saw -- The Stormfather -- was a fragment of Honor left over from his Splintering, similar to how Preservation left the mists even though his mind was kabloomers. From the theory that Darkness is Nalan and Baxil's Mistress is Shalash, the Heralds seem to be rather fixed in the Physical Realm, just like regular humans. We have no idea what Jezrien is up to, but if we can run off of those two as a guide, he's probably still wandering around, doing crazy stuff.

 

But we know that Splintering doesn't leave a fragment like Preservation. Also, only -most- of Preservation's mind was kabloomers, there was still the remnant that we know as the mist spirit. I also don't know if we can judge all the Heralds equally. Jezerin in particularly was their leader and a king in his former life. Maybe he's set himself up as a king again, somewhere where he can mitigate some of the damage abandoning the Oathpact caused.

[Macen]

I thought that Jezrien was the Stormfather as well, but I highly doubt it now. I'm willing to guess that the face that Kaladin saw -- The Stormfather -- was a fragment of Honor left over from his Splintering, similar to how Preservation left the mists even though his mind was kabloomers. From the theory that Darkness is Nalan and Baxil's Mistress is Shalash, the Heralds seem to be rather fixed in the Physical Realm, just like regular humans. We have no idea what Jezrien is up to, but if we can run off of those two as a guide, he's probably still wandering around, doing crazy stuff.

I doubt this because Syl said the Stormfather forbid bonding, yet Honor says that he wants the KR to be reformed.... 

[Dros]

The Heralds have broken from Honor once already, why think they wouldn't do it again? If Darkness is in fact a Herald, it seems they might think the Nahel Bond brings on the Desolations and are actively trying to stop it. It would follow that they would try to stop the bond from both sides of the equation. 

 

FirstSelector had a very interesting theory about how Jezrien might have been able to pull something like this off:

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5197-jezrien-shards-and-the-identity-of-the-broken-one/

[el_warko]

  We don't know what honorspren are doing in the present. 

 

Weren't there plenty heaps of honorspen about during the battle ot the tower?

[Macen]

The Heralds have broken from Honor once already, why think they wouldn't do it again? If Darkness is in fact a Herald, it seems they might think the Nahel Bond brings on the Desolations and are actively trying to stop it. It would follow that they would try to stop the bond from both sides of the equation. 

 

FirstSelector had a very interesting theory about how Jezrien might have been able to pull something like this off:

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5197-jezrien-shards-and-the-identity-of-the-broken-one/

Dros, I totally agree - that was the comments I've made implying that (and the convo I referenced in the OP). I think this reinforced the theory. It is also commonly believed that when they broke their oathpact it somehow corrupted them (or something has corrupted them) aka why Darkness hunts KR.

[vikorr]

I think that the disagreement would only be part of the 'complex conflict', if at all...and by 'at all', I mean that it would be more symptomatic of the wider conflict, than a root cause (they are two very different spren in philosophy/outlook)

 

Also,

 

Which implied that the cryptics CHOSE Shallan (I believe that Pattern found Shallan at a young age and followed her, observing her - then had the other cryptics follow  her to see if they approved, that is why she saw tons of them the months before she entered shadesmar - but this is neither here nor there.)

 

It appears that Shallan saw them in their own realm, and they were confused about it, saying 'What are you?" (then she replies 'I'm terrified')...why would they need to ask that question if they had chosen her and knew about her?

 

The question 'what are you?' makes more sense if she shouldn't be able to see them in the cognitive realm while she is in the physical. But then again, it appears Elohkar can do the same...

 

...but, it's obvious that she can see, and hear, into the cognitive realm, with them being their normal cognitive shape, and speaking to her from there.

[FirstSelector]

I like this idea a lot, in fact, I would not be surprised to learn that this division stratiates all Nahel spren into two camps.  The honorspren - living embodiments of oaths - would be very upset with the Knights Radiant and humanity in general following the Recreance.  After such an event, perhaps only the most dire of circumstances could convince the honorspren (and other likeminded ones) to cross over.

 

In the other camp, we have Cryptics.  I'm sure they were similarly angry when the Knights Radiant stepped down, but given their nature (liespren) I don't think it is an unreasonable leap to claim that they would come around eventually.  They see the danger from Odium and feel that even in the face of the Recreance it is worthwhile to start having new Surgebinders.

[Aether]

That Stormfather is Jezrien's conscience has been suggested before, and I feel it fits well in with the new information. Consider this quote:

“Praise Yaezir,” [Darkness] said. “Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.”

- From Lift's Interlude of the Words of Radiance.

The way Darkness speaks about Yazir (presumed to be the Azish name of Jezrien) makes it seem like he knows him personally and is aware of his current mental state. If Jezrien really is a drooling fool right now, then maybe this could be because he has given up his consciousness to the Cognitive Realm, to take on the mantle of "Stormfather"? The way he forbids Spren to bond with humans again also fits with Darkness mission of rooting out and killing off all new Surgebinders.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Aether

[Argent]

This is a reasonable theory, I like it. I don't think that's the only, or maybe not even the main difference between the Cryptics and the Honorspren*, but I am sold on the idea that it is one of them. Things fit - Wyndle was sent to Lift, Jasnah is convinced Pattern was sent to Shallan (or both of them were sent to her, or something like that; either way, the Cryptics influenced the physical realm). On the other hand, Syl was forbidden from going to Kaladin, and Nohadon said that not all spren were as discerning as the honorspren - which could easily imply that most spren that bind with humans are not honorspren, as the latter would be much pickier. 

 

 * It kind of bothers me that the Cryptics are capitalized in the book, but honorspren are not...

[Macen]

I'll concede that this is probably not the only conflict (possible/probably not even their original) they have, but I would say it's a major one. We kind of need to know exactly why the stormfather doesn't want them to bond with humans. If Jez is the stormfather that might explain some of it, but it's still so vague.

As of right now this is the only part of their conflict I can reasonably say is almost certain. I'm sure there is a colorful history as to why they don't get along (the simple fact that they are opposites on the surgecharge supports this), but we don't know what any of it is or have anything information to speculate on.

[dionysus]

Wyndle refers to himself as a gardener and mentions that Cryptics came to visit his gardens. I feel he is not a Cryptic but I should probably go read that interlude again. Now that we have seen a Cryptic in action I find it hard to believe they are primarily of Cultivation.

Edited January 22, 2014 by dionysus

[Macen]

Admitting truths that you are hiding from yourself is part of maturing and growing as a person. I would say in a round about way this reeks of cultivation and pruning.

[dionysus]

Admitting truths that you are hiding from yourself is part of maturing and growing as a person. I would say in a round about way this reeks of cultivation and pruning.

 

Pattern takes pleasure in misleading truths. Best way I can describe it. He takes pleasure in being "cryptic". Speaking the truth but in obscure and misleading ways. Admittedly limited screen time, but nothing in his behavior seems to imply he particular wants Shallan to become a better person.

 

I really believe there is a lot going on in Roshar's realmatics that we haven't scratched the surface of. We need to keep our minds open. We actually have WoB that there are spren in Roshar that come directly from Adonalsium. Trying to force everything into Honor, Cultivation, or Odium's camp is probably wrong.

[Macen]

I believe their is a WoB also stating that all of the bonding spren are part of cultivation, honor, or a blend of. But I could be off base on this. Pattern is cryptic, no doubt about that - but he does seem to want Shallan to admit her secrets to him (and herself).

[Argent]

We kind of need to know exactly why the stormfather doesn't want them to bond with humans. If Jez is the stormfather that might explain some of it, but it's still so vague.

 

Lift's Darkness - whom I (and not a few others) believe to be the Herald Nalan - could be on the right track when he claims that Surgebinders make the Desolations come (faster).