Elkohar has an honor blade?

[duladen]

My pennies on the pile..

Why shouldnt an Honourblade be dismissible? It seems like a terribly encumbering and awkward thing to simply pack about.

And i think that the difference between the standard Shardblades Power and Honourblades More Power would be a Nahael bond (sp?). It takes a Spren to unlock the potential of the respective Blade. Or do we know if the Heralds even had spren bonds.

The Radiant Plate behaved differently than the modern Shardplate does because of the bond, am i correct?

 

I agree with this line of thought. It has to do with spren bonds, and I would assumed that there is some sort of extra special bond for someone to become a Herald. Shardblades are all unique, and modern peoples seem somewhat ignorant of their ancient history and these talismans. I think it is very likely that someone has an Honorblade without knowing it. And these points about Elkohar - he was just speaking to the two presumed Heralds and has glyphs on his blade - are very compelling. I like this idea more than Szeth having one.

[hoser]

Not saying, just suggesting. 

I've got one problem: When Elhokar is using his Honorblade, why aren't his eyes brown? (Or dark, just not light-eyed.) This might just be a characteristic of one Herald's Honorblade, but still...you would think that it would do something different.

...

If Radiantblades alter the SDNA or spiritweb such that one's descendents have light eyes, but Honorblades do not affect eye color, then Elhokar could be lighteyed based on his ancesters wielding Radiantblades.  Weilding an Honorblade could just not affect his eye color.  Taln's eyes are dark brown when wielding his presumed Honorblade, whereas the Stonewards (the corresponding order) glowed amber.  Maybe Taln's eyes are naturally dark brown.  

[Cayden]

The Radiant Plate behaved differently than the modern Shardplate does because of the bond, am i correct?

 

Modern plate is all used by non-surgebinders, which is why they presumably have to power it using a lot of gemstones, could well be that originally the glyphs and such acted almost like a solar battery and absorbed the stormlight directly, thus giving the Radiants themselves a suit of armor which fed them with a certain amount of stormlight.

 

It makes sense to me that the more of the words you have said, the better stormlight works for you, the more energy you get out of every bit of stormlight. But even so, the Radiants might struggle a bit to go into battle and then think... "Ooops I forgot my money bag... can someone lend me a ruby please?"

 

No I think Plate worked completely differently before and that it was more like Shardblades, it was summoned rather than placed on and that the Radiants likely charged it up via shadesmar or from Highstorms themselves. Though it might well be that Honor empowered them directly due to their connection with it. Maybe that is part of the reason they abandoned the plate and blades? when Honor died they might have lost the natural empowerment and decided that they had been forsaken by the almighty?

 

So much we dont know yet, but I for one am eager to find out.

[IllNsickly]

And I agree that the Radiant Plate was Summoned and that it was way more efficient as a result of the Ideals being spoken aloud.... In the presence of a bonded Spren. I have a feeling that THAT is the missing qualifier for all of the modern Plate and Blade holders we have seen. Now that Dalinar has given his away and Kaladin has never held them, we simply have towait for someone Bonded to progress far enough in the ideals for their spren to remember provide the Plate and Blade once they are earned.

It just feels right to me that Spren are the key to it all.

Edited for typos

Edited January 1, 2014 by IllNsickly

[Oudeis]

I have some general thoughts on Blades and Plate...

 

I think that the Blades are going to turn out to be like Gold was to anyone who read the first Mistborn book. We're given an in-world explanation that makes some sense, and we just accept it. End of story. But it turns out it wasn't even close to correct.

 

I suspect none of us readers know as much about the Blades as we think we do.There's a ton we don't understand yet.

 

They're the only Investiture that we've seen on Roshar that don't need Stormlight. What does power them, then? If Plate could be directly powered once long ago but can't anymore, why can Blades still do it? Why are there, by Dalinar's reckoning, 80-90 Blades in the world right now, when just two Orders (and we do know that the Radiants who showed up to Feverstone represented literally ALL of the Radiants of those two Orders?) gave away 300. That means, presumably, at least 1500, and for-sure at least 300. What happened to the other 210, or the other 1,410 Blades?

 

There is simply so much that does not add up. I can't offer any better suggestions because my point is, I don't think we know nearly enough come to any conclusions, and I think that over the next nine books we'll learn that all the "conventional wisdom" circling fanon about Shardblades is gonna prove to be all wrong, just like there is no way for anyone whose read just the first Mistborn book to realize what exactly is up with gold, and what it implies for the rest of the allomantic table.

[IllNsickly]

I think the LACK of spren in a few of Dalinars visions is a clue.. Especially with the extreme abundance of them we see now..

Could it be that a large number of the Spren we see now were unbound from the Blades and Plate that are unaccounted for? Plate that was damaged and never regrown and Blades that were either broken or damaged and deteriorated?

[Aether]

I think the LACK of spren in a few of Dalinars visions is a clue.. Especially with the extreme abundance of them we see now..

Could it be that a large number of the Spren we see now were unbound from the Blades and Plate that are unaccounted for? Plate that was damaged and never regrown and Blades that were either broken or damaged and deteriorated?

I think it is quite commonly believe that the lack of abundance of Spren in Dalinar's visions is either because their numbers increased after Honour's shattering, or that they are so common that most people do not really notice them of think much about them at all. I cannot remember Dalinar pointing out any lack of Spren, so I wouldn't read much into it before we get any more information.

 

I do not think it is because of unbound Shardplates and -Blades, though. There weren't nearly enough of them, even during the time of the Radiants, to make any significant difference.

[hoser]

I think the LACK of spren in a few of Dalinars visions is a clue.. Especially with the extreme abundance of them we see now..

Could it be that a large number of the Spren we see now were unbound from the Blades and Plate that are unaccounted for? Plate that was damaged and never regrown and Blades that were either broken or damaged and deteriorated?

The lack of spren in Dalinar's visions is thought by some to be a clue that Honor had not yet been shattered.  The proliferation of spren would then be due to the abundance of investiture.  There is WoB that supports this as he has said that the spren form a release mechanism that prevents Shadesmar from being as dangerous as is near the Elantris world (Sel?).

Additional evidence for this theory over the Blade/Plate theory is that the spren are not seen in the Nohadon vision, when presumably the Radiants and their accoutrements didn't exist yet.  

[IllNsickly]

Your explanations do make more sense. Thank you.

Edited January 5, 2014 by IllNsickly

[Meg]

I'd like to add some thoughts of mine to this thread. I apologize for not quoting.

1) Someone mentioned that the Elhokar's Shardblade might be an Honorblade passed down the royal line. This "royal line" does only exist since Gavilar, Elhokar's father, after he reunited Alethkar's highprinces. And Elhokar's Blade and Plate were given from his mother's side (TWoK Chapter 12) (though we don't know anything about her family).

2) Apparently Honorblades could be summoned and dismissed like (normal) Shardblades (TWoK Prelude).

3) It's theorized that the Blades were kept in the Cognitive Realm when not summoned. They might get their powers there, while "resting". This, too, would/could explain why the Plates of old (which could apparently be summoned and dismissed, too (TWoK Chapter 19)) didn't need to be powered by gemstones.

4) Elantris's world is Sel, yes. :=)

5) That quote about the spren being release valves on Roshar was about diminishing the dangers for traveling from Roshar to the Cognitive Realm (other than on Sel).

 

Quote

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

Quote

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

source

[Aether]

3) It's theorized that the Blades were kept in the Cognitive Realm when not summoned. They might get their powers there, while "resting". This, too, would/could explain why the Plates of old (which could apparently be summoned and dismissed, too (TWoK Chapter 19)) didn't need to be powered by gemstones.

Woah! This is actually a really good idea! There is still a major difference, though. Why would the Blades continue to be able to be summoned and dismissed, and the Plate not, while both stopped glowing?

[The Count]

All we know is that Honourblades disappear when the Herald it is linked to dies. It would be reasonable to assume that it might behave like a normal Shardblade when a non-Herald dies.

I think this is the key here.

Remember, in the past when a herald died they didn't really die, they were sent back to Damnation until the next desolation. presumably the blade disappearing is actually it going there with them (or possibly just going back to wherever shardblades go until summoned).

The sole reason for the Honorblades behaving differently (i.e. disappearing on death) could be due to the fact that the holders did not really die so the spiritual connection to the blades was never severed.

I would suggest that an honorblade in the hands of someone who was not bound to the oathpact would behave exactly like a 'normal' shardblade (at least in terms of summoning / dismissing / death).

whether the holding of an honorblde conveys some other powers on the holder or not is still up in the air.

Edited January 6, 2014 by The Count

[Aether]

Remember, in the past when a herald died they didn't really die, they were sent back to Damnation until the next desolation. presumably the blade disappearing is actually it going there with them (or possibly just going back to wherever shardblades go until summoned).

The sole reason for the Honorblades behaving differently (i.e. disappearing on death) could be due to the fact that the holders did not really die so the spiritual connection to the blades was never severed.

I would suggest that an honorblade in the hands of someone who was not bound to the oathpact would behave exactly like a 'normal' shardblade (at least in terms of summoning / dismissing / death).

I believe I made the same point myself over in the Szeth has an Honourblade Thread. Great minds think alike, I suppose   

 

I think it is important to understand that we often have the tendency of exaggerating the actual evidence. In this case, we register that when a Herald is killed, his Honourblade (which is still technically a shardblade, btw, if not a Shardblade) disappears. First of all, the first premise, his death, is misleading, as they do not actually die. At the very least, this proverbial death is not permanent, and because of this, are we really correct to assume that the his shardblade does not follow the rule of spawning next to the corpse upon its owner's demise? And even if we are, can we expect it to follow this same rule if it is being carried by a non-Herald?

 

I find myself doubting the commonly accepted notions on this subject.

[Daishi5]

I made this point in another thread, but something has bothered me about shardblades.

 

Syl describes her self as an honorspren, who binds things.  As an honorspren, before all her memories came back, all of her pranks were about holding things together.  

 

In comparison shardblade separates everything it touches, when it touches a person it separates the connection between the physical and the cognitive and/or spirtual.   The shardblade doesn't just cut, it passes right through things, and where it passes, there is no longer any connection.  

 

Considering that the Heralds carry blades that do the same thing, I don't think its proof that the blades are somehow bad, but they just don't seem to be related to honor.   

[Moogle]

Considering that the Heralds carry blades that do the same thing, I don't think its proof that the blades are somehow bad, but they just don't seem to be related to honor.   

 

Herald's blades are called Honorblades. I'm not sure it's possible for them to be more connected to Honor. The fact that Shardblades separate things might be irrelevant- it's not like Allomancy is about Preserving things, after all.

[Ironeyes]

I have some general thoughts on Blades and Plate...

 

I think that the Blades are going to turn out to be like Gold was to anyone who read the first Mistborn book. We're given an in-world explanation that makes some sense, and we just accept it. End of story. But it turns out it wasn't even close to correct.

I'm confused. Are you referring to Atium?

[Aether]

I'm confused. Are you referring to Atium?

Doesn't really matter. Neither Allomantic gold nor Allomantic atium were very well understood by the citizens of the Final Empire, which was the point he was going for. Neither were paired correctly, and both were otherwise placed incorrectly into the Allomantic Table.

 

Point is that we do not necessarily know what we think we know about Shardplates and -blades.

[christophalies]

My only biggest issue with this is that I believe Elkohar loans out his blade for duels. If Honorblades are different from shardblades, then loaning it out seems to make it likely to be noticed. If only Elkohar used his blade, it would be possible he didn't notice any difference because he never had a shardblade to compare it to. However, during the duels, you would have someone who had trained with a normal shardblade using an honorblade against another shardbearer in an arena that was carefully watched. (I am assuming that a high ranked lighteyes with no blade could receive training with a real shardblade, because otherwise dueling with shardblades when you have never held one before seems silly.) I would expect either the duelist to notice that the kings blade is different, or the crowd to notice something.

I can see when adolin is let lose to collect blades and plate throug duels, him losing his blade and borrowing elhokar's like was talked about in WoK, and noticing it being different or more powerful than his blade... If this were to be true and all lol.

Edited January 16, 2014 by christophalies

[Oudeis]

I'm going to look up that quote. Does it expressly say the King's own Blade? I remember thinking at the time that it meant the King himself had a few, three maybe four, Blades in an armory, to be kept to loan out for duels or in case someone does something that deserves a reward, so he doesn't have to wait around until he gets a new one

 

 

I can see when adolin is let lose to collect blades and plate throug duels, him losing his blade and borrowing elhokar's like was talked about in WoK, and noticing it being different or more powerful than his blade... If this were to be true and all lol.

 

We're allowed to discuss the chapters released today, yes? Spoilers just in case.

 

"For now, he’d have to settle for Salinor, one of Thanadal’s Shardbearers. The man had only the Blade, though he’d been able to borrow a set of the King’s Plate for a bout with a full Shardbearer."

 

I think this fairly clearly specifies that there are at least multiple Plates to borrow.

 

I'm confused. Are you referring to Atium?

 

Doesn't really matter. Neither Allomantic gold nor Allomantic atium were very well understood by the citizens of the Final Empire, which was the point he was going for. Neither were paired correctly, and both were otherwise placed incorrectly into the Allomantic Table.

 

Point is that we do not necessarily know what we think we know about Shardplates and -blades.

 

Yes, this was exactly my point. People saw Eight Base Metals and Two High Metals, and that raised flags for almost no one. It seemed to make perfect sense. It just wasn't right. I wouldn't be surprised if Blades prove to be the same thing: everyone thinks they know how they work, and everyone will be proven wrong.

 

Same spoiler warning as above:

 

Though my mind was blown when, after an entire book with exactly one off-hand mention, we learn that the jewels in the pommel are actually pivotal.

[Aether]

"For now, he’d have to settle for Salinor, one of Thanadal’s Shardbearers. The man had only the Blade, though he’d been able to borrow a set of the King’s Plate for a bout with a full Shardbearer."

 

I think this fairly clearly specifies that there are at least multiple Plates to borrow.

I am curious as to how this is confirmation that the King owns several. While I think it is fairly likely, I do not see how this confirms it. Where is the plural?

[Mr Horrible]

I am curious as to how this is confirmation that the King owns several. While I think it is fairly likely, I do not see how this confirms it. Where is the plural?

 

If the king only had one set of plate then it would be referred to as "the set".

[Oudeis]

If the king only had one set of plate then it would be referred to as "the set".

 

Exactly. Not to mention, the Plate that Salinor wears is physically described, and is entirely different from Elhokar's Plate.

[Aether]

I concede the point. Up-vote for the catch!

 

Also, the Alethi are all a bunch of show-offs, letting their king have several sets of shards.

[Swimmingly]

The chap implies that HBlades grant Surge binding. I don't think El's been surgebinding.

[DocHoliday]

I am curious as to how this is confirmation that the King owns several. While I think it is fairly likely, I do not see how this confirms it. Where is the plural?

 

 

If the king only had one set of plate then it would be referred to as "the set".

Beat me to it.  i mentioned it in the main thread, but oh well. Props brother.

 

The chap implies that HBlades grant Surge binding. I don't think El's been surgebinding.

We're not certain on that count. Elohkar did have several cracked gems after the hunt. I think however that is besides the point.

If Elohkar has the Honorblade then Szeth can't. 

 

Since we're 90% sure now that this how Szeth had been Surge-binding without a Nahel-bond, it seems highly unlikely Elohkar has Jezrien's Blade.