Personal Identity and Clothing

[Kurkistan]

So, in the philosophy of identity, there's a bit of a discussion as the extent to which "things" are part of us. How much is your homeland or house or favorite book a part of who "you" are? To what extent can you claim them as an extension of your self, a part of your identity as a person?

Now, as I've said before, philosophy actually matters in the cosmere! There's actually an interesting discussion to be had as to whether objects gain some "sympathy" with their owners (oh, that is interesting...), but that's not what I'm looking at today.

No, instead, I will look at clothes!!!

You see, it turns out that (I think) your clothing is a proper part of your identity in the cosmere, at least to some extent. At least some magics operate on a level at which affecting "you" means also affecting your clothing.

Examples:

1. Jasnah's combat-soulcasting. When she soulcasts the thugs, she wipes them out completely, clothes and all. She doesn't turn a man into a statue with clothes on it, but everything from hair to boots into crystal.

This implies a deeper level of connection between clothes and identity because we already have fair reason to believe that soulcasting works on the level of "objects" by default: A goblet, an entire stone, etc. Shallan's blood when she was poisoned is an oddity here, but we might be able to explain that away as either Blood being an essence or Jasnah making a special effort there.

2. Lift's "Slick". This one is the one that caught my attention, actually. Lift, it seems, includes her clothing in the effect whenever she goes "Slick". I scoured the interlude to make sure that it wasn't just her bare skin, but at one point she slides full-body across the floor, so that suggests (unless she was secretly nude the whole scene) that her clothing is included.

And she's not exactly a master of skill and subtlety, so I doubt that she included her clothes "on purpose" by some extra effort. In fact, I'd wager (just because) that Edgedancers can only actually "Slick" themselves, not necessarily their surroundings, which would lock in clothing as part of the self.

---

This isn't 100% at the moment. For all I know, Lift makes a special effort to include her clothing and/or soulcasting is entirely based on the soulcaster's perceptions of what an "object" is. I'm inclined to believe, though, that instead people's Cognitive aspects possess a (very very weak) perception of their clothes as a part of them, and that at least some magic systems are sensitive to this perception.

This might mean that clothing is included in Basic Lashings, for instance.

Thoughts?

Edited December 3, 2013 by Ookla the Inveterate

[Windrunner]

The basic lashings do indeed affect clothes.

Szeth set the spear’s butt against the stone floor, then looked upward. The guard above stopped shouting, eyes opening wide as the tails of his shirt began to slip downward, the earth below reasserting its dominance. The Light steaming off his body dwindled.

Come to think of it, it would be rather inconvenient if Szeth's shirt slipped over his head every time he lashed himself to the ceiling.

 

Not to tease, but I did pick up a copy of the Dangerous Women anthology that I found at Barnes & Noble and there is something in there that supports your theory here. I'll be sure to post the relevant quote tomorrow, but I probably should hold off for now...

 

I'd totally espouse this theory. Although, it is intriguing about how an object is or isn't considered to be part of someone. What about objects that they identify strongly with? For instance, if Kaladin is holding a spear and is lashed to the ceiling, will the spear be a part of that or not?

[hoser]

What an amazing observation.  An interesting case is in Elantris described below.  May I offer some potential grist for the theoretical mill?

Elantris spoiler:

Raoden, when affected by the Reod, cannot target himself or Galladon.  He can, however, attach illusions to their clothing that link to the muscles of his face.  Here I am relying on the theorizing abilities of others, as this makes no sense to me. 

 

Warbreaker spoiler

Another situation is in Warbreaker, where certain spells can effect corpses, but not live bodies.  IIRC, the interference effect of the live body starts outside the body.

 

[Satsuoni]

IIRC, the thugs were armed and were transformed with knifes (cannot look it up right now), so I think that a weapon being used should be affected by the lashing until released, but I am not sure. I'd give it about 75%

[Oudeis]

You mean the one time she slid across the floor away from Darkness? I read that a few times because it was very unclear to me... he did expressly say "whole body" but there were other parts that made it sound like she was basically kneeling down... I shall perhaps read it a third time. It is frustrating that the one part that would specifically answer this question was (to me at least) one of the least visual moments.

[bartbug]

Windrunner, you teaser, you! I'm so jealous that you already have a copy! One problem with amazon is that.

On the topic at hand, I think that the best work for examining this would be the Emperor's Soul, because it is naturally all about what makes up the identity of a person. I remember a problem of Ashravan's favorite color being green, but Shai did not know why that was. If something as simple as a favorite color could contribute to your cognitive sense of a soul, then clothes would definitely be important.

[Windrunner]

IIRC, the thugs were armed and were transformed with knifes (cannot look it up right now), so I think that a weapon being used should be affected by the lashing until released, but I am not sure. I'd give it about 75%

They may have been, I don't remember. But the guards that Szeth had lashed lost their weapons because they weren't directly lashed. My question was more along the lines of, "Since Kaladin is so comfortable with the spear, would it be considered a part of him, whereas it might not be for someone else who is less skilled and attached to their weapon?"

[Kurkistan]

@Windy

 

Thanks, and thanks for the quote.

 

As to how far this goes: Excellent question. It may depend on the person or the situation, I think. Are your socks more a part of you than your shoes? Your gloves or your shirt? Your rings or other jewlery?

 

It may end up being personal/cultural, though I think a fair metric might be "whatever you'd reasonably expect to someone to carry over into Shadesmar".

 

Oh, that reminds me: Raoden teleports in Elantris and doesn't show up in Teod naked.

 

On DW:  ()

-Is it worth buying, or should I hold off for a library book? I'm all tunnel-visioned and such, so don't know if I should get it for the other authors' stories.

 

@hoser

 

Grist away.

 

My thoughts:

 

Elantris: If I recall correctly, Raoden specifically couldn't draw effective Aons on himself, rather than not being able to "affect" himself. So it might be a limitation of AonDor. Or Elantrians are super-special.

 

Myself, I think that it's likely that clothes are just less (read: not at all) Invested or part of people than their skin is. Recall that clothing doesn't interfere with Allomantic steel/Allomantic iron. It's tangential stuff, probably (actually, almost certainly since Miles isn't bald by now from face-splosions) more so than even hair or nails. It may be that a lot of magics just disregard the "personhood" of clothing, and that only relatively subtle ones aimed specifically at "object" and "people" care to notice.

 

Warbreaker: Same, I would say. I would also draw on our ongoing discussion of fundamental vs. surface effects. It's also my impression that Awakening just stops right at the skin, without any "aura" of invulnerability: Tonk Fah's cloak and people's clothing is drained of color and/or awakened, after all.

 

@Sats

 

*Pulls out eBook*

 

The one Jasnah turned to fire had a knife which wasn't mentioned dropping or anything, but no details on the others.

 

Another interesting fact on that section: I made a mistake. The fire-man and the crystal-man both seemed to turn completely (clothes and all, with clothes mentioned specifically for the crystal-man), but the two Jasnah distance-soulcast into smoke didn't include their clothing, it it specifically mentioned as "their empty clothing dropping to the ground."

 

The difference between the two cases, besides the Essence involved, seems to simply be one of whether Jasnah was touching the man when she did it. That suggest something fundamentally different going on with the two kinds of soulcasting, beyond the one being done at range.

 

@Darnam

 

Yeah, it's a bit un-visual. Fairly clear, though, I think, especially in light of Lift's certainty that she can Slick away if anyone tries to grab her—which suggests that simply grabbing at here sleeve wouldn't do the trick.

 

@Bart

 

Actually, I think that the Emperor's favorite color is a bit more fundamental than his clothing, but that's a discussion for another day. 

 

@All

 

Stop replying so quickly!!! 

[Iredomi]

Windy are you by any chance referring to the use of hoods in Silence?

[Shardlet]

One thing that should be considered is whose perception matters.  What I mean by that is, when Jasnah scorched/changed the thugs, were their clothes and equipment affected because of Jasnah's perceptions or the thugs' perceptions?  Are clothes, etc. included in the effect because the surgebinder or whomever naturally assumes that they would be?  And such being the case, if a magic required direct contact to operate, would skin-to-skin contact be necessary or could one merely contact someones clothes be sufficient? 

[Windrunner]

On DW:  ( )

-Is it worth buying, or should I hold off for a library book? I'm all tunnel-visioned and such, so don't know if I should get it for the other authors' stories.

I've not dived all the way into the anthology as of yet, so I can't give a fair review. I've read or partially read about 5 of the ~25 stories. SFS was really really great, about 45 pages long. Lots of new terms and whatnot. Actually, nearly as many as TES, but that's more a wiki concern. I personally think some of the stuff we see in the backstory there, while being unimportant for now, are deceptive in how crucial they may be to the overall cosmere story.

The other four stories I read were a mixed bag. I loved the "Raisa Stepanova" story (I apologize if I butchered the spelling there, Russian is not my forte) about a female aviator on the eastern front of WWII. "I Know How To Pick 'Em" was... disturbing in my opinion. I didn't like it at all, but perhaps that's because it's so radically different from what I typically like to read. The Wildcards story was intriguing, I kind of want to check out one of the novels. The ASoIaF story is the longest in the anthology, which is cool. I read a part of it, but I've never read any of the main novels, so it didn't interest me too much.

I'd recommend an ebook or perhaps online shopping around for a better price, unless you're a big fan of multiple authors in there. I bought it for $32, which might have been overpaying a tad, but I have poor impulse control and really wanted to read that story for wikiing.

 

Windy are you by any chance referring to the use of hoods in Silence?

No, I am not.

[Kurkistan]

@Windy
 
Thanks for the info, I have a decision to make...
 

One thing that should be considered is whose perception matters.  What I mean by that is, when Jasnah scorched/changed the thugs, were their clothes and equipment affected because of Jasnah's perceptions or the thugs' perceptions?  Are clothes, etc. included in the effect because the surgebinder or whomever naturally assumes that they would be?  And such being the case, if a magic required direct contact to operate, would skin-to-skin contact be necessary or could one merely contact someones clothes be sufficient?

 
I think everyone's perception almost certainly matters to some extent. The Cognitive incorporates both self-perception and that of others, after all. I think that a nudist-in-hiding on Roshar would probably still get his clothing Lashed to the ceiling too, for instance. I'd put the weight of consideration on mass perception/the wearer, though.

 

I don't think that Jasnah's perception, at least, is the primary governing factor for her circumstance. She combat-cast 4 people in a row, yet two of them went with their clothing and two didn't, while I doubt her perceptions of them were significantly different.

 

So far as contact goes, here are some quotes on the two who got the full monty. The question remains whether simply touching the clothing is what makes it so that the clothing is also transformed, along with whether touching someone's clothing is enough to allow the magic to happen—I think it would be, btw. I don't recall Szeth being careful to touch people's bare skin to Lash them, after all.
 

...A thick-chested man with a dark beard came up to Jasnah, weapon raised. She calmly reached her hand out—fingers splayed—and pressed it against his chest as he swung a knife. Shallan’s breath caught in her throat.

Jasnah’s hand sank into the man’s skin, and he froze. A second later he burned.

No, he became fire. Transformed into flames in an eyeblink. Rising around Jasnah’s hand, they formed the outline of a man with head thrown back and mouth open.

 

[...]

 

The other three men began to curse, scrambling away, tripping over one another in their panic. One fell. Jasnah turned casually, brushing his shoulder with her fingers as he struggled to his knees. He became crystal, a figure of pure, flawless quartz—his clothing transformed along with him.

 

The implication for the first man is that he was bare-chested, though we're not sure his clothing went because it's not mentioned and it could have potentially went up in the fire. His knife isn't mentioned at all though, so I think the implication is everything is turned into fire.

 

The second is also unclear. He might have been wearing a sleeveless shirt, so skin-to-skin, or could have been wearing sleeves and maybe that's why his clothing was also transformed.

 

The "touch point" for the lightning that turned the two into smoke is not mentioned at all.

 

---

 

Myself, I think it likely that the two different kinds of soulcasting (touch vs. range) were all that determined if the clothing was affected, and that a Soulcaster would be able to touch-affect someone just by touching them through their clothing.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Ookla the Inveterate

[Iredomi]

Having gotten the hardcover because i am also pretty impulsive i would definitely recommend you get it as an electronic copy as i would assume it would be cheaper. The novella is pretty amazing though and is definitely some of sandersons best writing to date.

[Satsuoni]

It seems also to depend on the amount of Stormlight left:

 

(paraphrase):

The guard above stopped shouting, eyes opening wide as the tails of his shirt began to slip downward, the earth below reasserting its dominance.

[Oudeis]

In a short time, I am going to my local Barnes and Noble, where I will be allowed one free hour (as I am every day) to read any book I wish. I will presumably be able to finish Shadows for Silence in that time. Do we know, will there be a forum to discuss that book going up any time soon?

[11thorderknight]

In almost all fantasy books, the authors "fudge" the rules of their own magic systems in order to make certain scenes "easier" to write, or to maintain the "feel" they are going for. For instance, when people teleport, their stuff goes with them, because authors don't want their characters running around naked all the time. When a wizard shapechanges into a dragon, his robe and staff disappear (because dragons don't wear robes), but when he turns the hero into a frog, his clothes might stay, and he might be naked when he gets rescued from the spell by the princess (because awkward romance scene). 

 

Brandon doesn't do that, or at least, if he wants a certain effect from his magic, he thinks it out in advance and builds it into his magic system. The Cosmere's three Realms, in particular the Cognitive, is a huge part of that. And really, the concept of the Cognitive realm is inspired by some real-world ancient philosophy, namely Plato's forms (i.e. there exists an ideal Chair, and all real-world chairs are a reflection/representation of this single Chair). So, I do agree that in the Cosmere, a lot of magic does treat a person's clothes/equipment as a part of them. Note, however, that different applications of magic might differ on this, depending on what they do. The Basic Lashing, for instance, apparently includes clothes, while Regrowth doesn't (people's torn shirts don't get mended).

 

As for Jasnah's soulcasting - well, there's a couple possible solutions. The first is that, quite simply, she meant to soulcast the weapons/clothes of the first two thugs, and didn't bother with the clothes of the last two. The second is that she may have run out of stormlight in her distance-casting, and therefore the clothes weren't included. The third is some convoluted reason why soulcasting at a distance doesn't include clothes but soulcasting by touch does. The fourth is that Brandon thought that people turning into smoke and leaving empty clothes dropping to the ground was a cool image, and just fudged things. Personally, I vote for 1 or 2, though I'm not ruling out 4.

[Windrunner]

So now that it's officially out...

Minor Shadows for Silence Spoilers

When a person turns into a shade, their clothes seem to change with them. In fact, they trail wisps that Silence thinks of as the remnants of their clothing.

[askthepaperclip]

Elantris: If I recall correctly, Raoden specifically couldn't draw effective Aons on himself, rather than not being able to "affect" himself. So it might be a limitation of AonDor. Or Elantrians are super-special.

Just finished a reread of Elantris yesterday, and it seemed pretty clear that the reason they couldn't target themselves with AonDor was because of their "stasis" state due to the Reod. Although as I'm writing this I am now wondering why they were able to use transportation Aons on themselves but not illusion Aons...

[Oudeis]

Although as I'm writing this I am now wondering why they were able to use transportation Aons on themselves but not illusion Aons...

 

Surely they didn't start teleporting with Tia until after the Shaod was fixed...

[Kurkistan]

@Iredomi

 

Thanks for the rec.

 

@Knight

 

I think that's about right so far as Realmatics building in "fudge" goes. Though I think that Brandon's inspiration from Plato was a tad less direct than you imply, and moreover that "Forms" are more so seated in the Spiritual than the Cognitive:

 

Source:

Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm.

 

 

I hadn't considered simply running out of stormlight being the answer for the smoke-thugs. Good thought. I don't think she'd have any reason to intentionally include weapons/clothes for the first two, though: dead is dead.

 

@Paperclip

 

Thanks for the info. As to teleportation: Well you're the most recent reader, but didn't they only use transportation aons after Elantris was restored?

 

@Windy

 

Just got the eBook, so I'll wait a bit before clicking on the spoiler.

[Oudeis]

If Jasnah could have killed all of them at range, why did she let those two get close enough to risk being stabbed? To satisfy her own sense of justice, knowing she only killed a group guilty of directly threatening her with blades, not merely one she strongly suspected would have, given the chance?

[marianmi]

The basic lashings do indeed affect clothes.

Come to think of it, it would be rather inconvenient if Szeth's shirt slipped over his head every time he lashed himself to the ceiling.

 

Not to tease, but I did pick up a copy of the Dangerous Women anthology that I found at Barnes & Noble and there is something in there that supports your theory here. I'll be sure to post the relevant quote tomorrow, but I probably should hold off for now...

 

I'd totally espouse this theory. Although, it is intriguing about how an object is or isn't considered to be part of someone. What about objects that they identify strongly with? For instance, if Kaladin is holding a spear and is lashed to the ceiling, will the spear be a part of that or not?

 

 

I thought it was part of the intention. If the surgebinder's intention is to include the spear, then the spear is a part.

 

Jasnah's intention was to transform the entire guy + clothing into crystal, and so it happened. If the intention was just for the 'body' of the guy (and not 'the guy as I see him in front of me'), then the clothes would not have turned. This is similar to the "visualisation" part in Awakening - you need a "mental image" of the thing you soulcast / surgebind etc...

 

Similar to Lift - here you also have the possibility that only the surface she is sliding onto is affected.

[Oudeis]

So then what does that look like in Shadesmar? I was under the impression that each "cognitive aspect" was one glass bead. Does this mean there's one glass bead which is just the naked man, but also a glass bead with is "the man plus equipment"? Does changing one automatically change the other, or is "his equipment" next to his bead and she just gave them both Stormlight? Is this glass bead somehow just a part of the massive bead of "the city of kharbranth"?

[marianmi]

I don't think we have enough information on Shadesmar.

 

I was just pointing out that intention plays a big role in magic in general (WoB), and also that in Awakening you have to "visualize". Since Shadesmar spans Nhaltis as well, there might be similarities in how in works there and Roshar.

[Kurkistan]

@marianmi
 
Perhaps. My reading is that the simplest way to model all of this is that people's "intentions" are usually just "affect object/person X" and then things get cached out by the Realms. My theory is that this defaults to including clothing, with the possibility that clothing must be included in some circumstances.
 
I find this the natural reading, as Szeth doesn't have any particular reason to be sure that the clothing of the soldiers he Lashes is also affected: in fact, he might well wish not to affect the clothing, if he had a choice, since affecting more stuff doubtlessly takes more stormlight.
 
As for Lift, my impression from the text was that she Slicked herself, not her surroundings.

 

@Darnam

 

Eh. Beads. I'll leave that alone for now, as I think Cognitive aspects are a bit fuzzier than all of that.
 

So now that it's officially out...

Minor Shadows for Silence Spoilers

When a person turns into a shade, their clothes seem to change with them. In fact, they trail wisps that Silence thinks of as the remnants of their clothing.

 
*Buys and reads story*
 

An excellent point that I think basically locks some version of "Cognitive aspects can/do include clothing" in.
 
Some relevant direct quotes:
 

[The shades] trailed waves of whiteness about an arm’s length behind them. Silence had always imagined that as tattered remains of their clothing.

 

And then much later...

 

BIGGER SPOILER

 

It was a newer shade, its form still strong despite the writhing blackness of its clothing. A tall woman, hard of features, with curling hair.

 

Unless Silence is shading the narrative quite strongly here, her grandmother's shade's  "shroud" is indeed classifiable as clothing.