Racial "magic" on Roshar

[Oudeis]

We've seen examples of extraordinary abilities on Roshar that don't, that I can see, have any obvious connection to Investiture. They appear to be racial traits. Any thoughts?

Aimians have reverse shadows (though there's talk of Jasnah's shadow doing something similar) and can adjust the pigmentation of their own skin at will.

Alethi men (possibly just light-eyes) experience the Thrill.

Shallan's Memory. (I add this one because though we've no evidence of it being racial, it is another example of seeming "magic" that has nothing to do with what we know of Roshan Investiture)

And Parshen, of course, can metamorphose during Highstorms (though the emphasis on stormlight and spren make it seem that it might, in fact, be a system of Investiture).

[Kurkistan]

Shallan's Memories are somehow "magical", so seems to require Investiture, fyi.

 

Source:

Mysty: Are Shallan's "memories" a form of surgebinding?

 

Brandon: Good question! Shallan has something besides pure physiology aiding her when taking a memory. (some magic is involved, but would not say yes or no to surgebinging in particular)

[Oudeis]

This is what I'm saying. Obviously, anything "magical" in the cosmere is Investiture. These are all examples of things that don't fit what we know of "Investiture" on Roshar, yet seem to be "magical" in nature. So... are these all connected? Are some of them connected? Are some of them Surges or Voidbringing or Old Magic? What's up with these all?

[Kurkistan]

Ah, my mistake then. I had thought that you were trying to distinguish between "magical" and non-magical racial traits.

 

*Mistborn Spoilers*

 

So, for instance, the Kandra being able to change their bodies is a non-magical racial trait, while the benefits of their Blessings is magical.

[Swimmingly]

Ah, my mistake then. I had thought that you were trying to distinguish between "magical" and non-magical racial traits.

 

*Mistborn Spoilers*

 

So, for instance, the Kandra being able to change their bodies is a non-magical racial trait, while the benefits of their Blessings is magical.

It always seemed a little odd to me that shapeshifting was not magical, but the ability to stay awake was in the kandra. Are things requiring Investiture the only things considered "magic" in the Cosmere? How do we know the difference? Feruchemy, for example, never uses an outside source of Investiture (except in compounding). Life sense is passive, and does not consume Invesiture - is this really "magic"? Sentience is a wondrous product of Investiture, so is this "magic"? If everything can be defined Cognitively, then is anything that causes a change to those Cognitive forms "magic" or just the instances where that change is accelerated deliberately? If Lift can metabolize food into Investiture, then does it count as magic when she eats, even if that Stormlight is never used? In the cosmere, where most anything can be traced back to the interactions of the Shards, there is very little that is not directly or indirectly connected to Cognitive Forms or Investiture of some kind.

[Windrunner]

In Lift's case, I don't think it counts unless she actually converts that food or body fat storage into Stormlight. If it is just digested naturally, then there's no magic necessary.

[Oudeis]

Ah, my mistake then. I had thought that you were trying to distinguish between "magical" and non-magical racial traits.

 

*Mistborn Spoilers*

 

So, for instance, the Kandra being able to change their bodies is a non-magical racial trait, while the benefits of their Blessings is magical.

 

Interesting that you bring up the Blessings. At first blush, they might seem mere hemalurgy; the Blessing of Potency simply grants you the strength inside; sentience is almost a side-effect. However, with only two spikes, the Blessing of Awareness should only grant two enhanced senses, yet it seems to enhance them all. Why the discrepancy? Is this a particular trait of the Kandra, that hemalurgy affects them slightly differently? Is it a side-effect of the sentience-granting process? Is it due to the fact that they aren't simply "spiked", but actual hemalurgic creations, an oft-overlooked subset of the hemalurgic system?

 

It always seemed a little odd to me that shapeshifting was not magical, but the ability to stay awake was in the kandra. Are things requiring Investiture the only things considered "magic" in the Cosmere? How do we know the difference? Feruchemy, for example, never uses an outside source of Investiture (except in compounding). Life sense is passive, and does not consume Invesiture - is this really "magic"? Sentience is a wondrous product of Investiture, so is this "magic"? If everything can be defined Cognitively, then is anything that causes a change to those Cognitive forms "magic" or just the instances where that change is accelerated deliberately? If Lift can metabolize food into Investiture, then does it count as magic when she eats, even if that Stormlight is never used? In the cosmere, where most anything can be traced back to the interactions of the Shards, there is very little that is not directly or indirectly connected to Cognitive Forms or Investiture of some kind.

 

This is all very interesting and I hope I remember to read it again and respond sometime tomorrow when I have had a great deal more sleep.

[Satsuoni]

Interesting that you bring up the Blessings. At first blush, they might seem mere hemalurgy; the Blessing of Potency simply grants you the strength inside; sentience is almost a side-effect. However, with only two spikes, the Blessing of Awareness should only grant two enhanced senses, yet it seems to enhance them all. Why the discrepancy? Is this a particular trait of the Kandra, that hemalurgy affects them slightly differently? Is it a side-effect of the sentience-granting process? Is it due to the fact that they aren't simply "spiked", but actual hemalurgic creations, an oft-overlooked subset of the hemalurgic system?

That would be because you misunderstand the effect of the tin spike. Its effect is closer to Allomantic tin than Feruchemical tin - it enhances all senses.

And so, a kandra granted the Blessing of Potency is actually acquiring a bit of innate strength similar to that of burning pewter. The Blessing of Presence grants mental capacity in a similar way, while the Blessing of Awareness is the ability to sense with greater acuity and the rarely used Blessing of Stability grants emotional fortitude.

Though the Mistborn RPG says otherwise (and implies that it works differently for Kandra), I am not sure that is not a balance issue, like instant Duralumin. Ok, so I am not sure The quote seems to imply that Hemalurgic spikes are closer to constant low-level Allomancy, though.

 

[hoser]

I know nothing.  Here are some of my baseless speculations offered in hopes that they might advance the discussion.

 

I think that when a Shard invests on a planet (or in a race), they create a base of investiture for all relevant beings.  This base causes certain effects that don't necessarily require investiture to use.  On Roshar, we see the Vorin talent concept.  This could be a magical effect from either Honor or Cultivation that increases Shallan's artistic abilities, Kaladin, Adolin and Dalinar's fighting abilities and others.  The Thrill could be a similar effect of Odium's investment. 

Other series spoilers:

In Warbreaker, non-drabs have a breath that stays with them without decaying that provides certain benefits (life-sense).  On the mistborn planet (Scadrial?) all humans have a base investiture also (although I don't remember any benefits).  In Elantris, one's base investiture affects one's ability to access the local magic system (only Aonic people can be affected by the Shaod, for example).

 

Then there are the magic systems on top of the base investiture.  I believe the various magical creatures are a Cultivation linked magic system that do (as the OP suggests) utilize investiture which includes Parshmen, Larkin, Aimians, greatshells and maybe even Purelake fish. 

 

Cheers

[Oudeis]

That would be because you misunderstand the effect of the tin spike. Its effect is closer to Allomantic tin than Feruchemical tin - it enhances all senses.

Though the Mistborn RPG says otherwise (and implies that it works differently for Kandra), I am not sure that is not a balance issue, like instant Duralumin. Ok, so I am not sure The quote seems to imply that Hemalurgic spikes are closer to constant low-level Allomancy, though.

 

 

I'm not so sure... the only four "base human traits" we know of that can be stolen are physical strength, senses, emotional stability, and mental clarity. I think we all agree that physical strength functions like low-level allomantic pewter. Yet emotional stability and mental clarity have no allomantic counterparts. Mental clarity seems a bit like feruchemical zinc, though one of the few advantages I think we ever see spelled out is when TenSoon speaks of his good memory, which would be more like feruchemical copper, though that isn't even a little how feruchemical copper actually works. Still, you have a point. We know very little about hemalurgic tin, and I think I was accidentally basing what I did know on the RPG, which is obviously non-canonical. Perhaps a question I'll ask Mr. Sanderson, unless someone out there knows the answer already?

 

I know nothing.  Here are some of my baseless speculations offered in hopes that they might advance the discussion.

 

I think that when a Shard invests on a planet (or in a race), they create a base of investiture for all relevant beings.  This base causes certain effects that don't necessarily require investiture to use.  On Roshar, we see the Vorin talent concept.  This could be a magical effect from either Honor or Cultivation that increases Shallan's artistic abilities, Kaladin, Adolin and Dalinar's fighting abilities and others.  The Thrill could be a similar effect of Odium's investment. 

Other series spoilers:

Then there are the magic systems on top of the base investiture.  I believe the various magical creatures are a Cultivation linked magic system that do (as the OP suggests) utilize investiture which includes Parshmen, Larkin, Aimians, greatshells and maybe even Purelake fish. 

 

Cheers

 

Interesting ideas... I'm not sure I personally believe all of them, but they are all quite viable. It is worth noting that the racial traits are more... spectacular on Roshar than they tend to be on other worlds.

 

A thought on Scadrial...

 

Perhaps the benefit on Scadrial is the ability to protect pierced metal from allomantic Pushes and Pulls? And let me take yet another opportunity to pimp my thoughts in the bronze and copper thread, where I posit that Innate Investiture is what Copper and Bronze Pull and Push on.

[Levian]

It seems like there are a multitude of "racial magic" on Roshar. To add to the list, the Horneater's ability to see Spren, although we don't know if that is unique to Rock, or if they can all see Spren who want to be invisible.

 

Specifically, with the Thrill, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Alethi have been manipulated or somehow modified by Odium to be more predisposed towards war. Jasnah once said something along the line of, intelligence was once more prized than strength, or something which leads me to believe that the Alethi were once like any other race, then Odium changed them. 

 

This would lead to them forgetting important things, about history, bonding with Spren, Surgebinding, Voidbringers and the Desolation, etc etc, and it would also weaken them and the rest of the world by preventing them from working together, for when Desolations happen. 

 

Also, we keep getting hints as to the difference between lighteyes and darkeyes, I'm curious to find out what it turns out to be.

[Swimmingly]

Contact lenses are going to be a big thing in alethia

[Gloom]

In Lift's case, I don't think it counts unless she actually converts that food or body fat storage into Stormlight. If it is just digested naturally, then there's no magic necessary.

Lift can definitely convert food directly into stormlight. After having all the stormlight sucked out of her by the larkin, she ate a roll and seconds later was able to convert that roll into stormlight. I'm sticking with stormlight because of the larkin. I find it hard to believe that a larkin would be able to drink in any type of investiture. It seems like it is specialized specifically towards stormlight.

 

I'll still agree that it doesn't count though, because she received her gift from the Nightwatcher.

[Swimmingly]

It counts. It was done, so it can be replicated, so it is possible on a large scale as part of a magic system.

[Oudeis]

It counts. It was done, so it can be replicated, so it is possible on a large scale as part of a magic system.

 

Is the base question still "does it count as 'magic' whenever Lift eats, even if she doesn't convert it?"? Cuz I'm gonna say no. That would be like Vasher telling a rope "hold this" without deliberately giving it a Command; it's one part of the Awakening and is required for the magic to work, but on its own is simply a phrase with no magic.

 

If I've got a wire lying on my table, it isn't part of an electrical system. i could use it as part of a system to connect a battery to a lightbulb, then electricity would be flowing through it and it would be part of a system, but just a length of metal in insulation has no (significant) flow of electricity through it, so it's not pat of an electric system, even though under different circumstances it would be.

 

To answer a previous point... I don't necessarily think Investiture needs to be "consumed" like the charge of a battery in order to be magic. A Feruchemist is Invested, but their Investiture simply acts as a catalyst, allowing them to transfer traits between their own bodies and bits of metal. It's not being burned off or used up like the metals of Allomancy or the color in Awakening, but it's still Investment.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is... I believe everything that we'd consider "magic" on Earth is Investiture. Anything that wouldn't be physically possible. The existence of spren, formal systems like Hemalurgy or Surgebinding, the Royal Locks. If it is magic, Investiture is being used somehow. I'm just trying to separate the instances we know of into "Formal systems", "Racial traits", and "One-off instances". If anyone can think of additional categories I will gladly listen.

[Gloom]

It counts. It was done, so it can be replicated, so it is possible on a large scale as part of a magic system.

 

It may count as magic, but it doesn't count as a magical racial trait. To say that if something can be replicated means it counts is strange to me because it was done through what I believe was direct shardic intervention. As far as I'm concerned, a Shard can accomplish almost anything. Your argument that if it can be done once it counts means that everything and anything could be considered a racial 'magic' on Roshar.