Theory: Shards Can't Alter Their Magic Systems

[Moogle]

This is in response to this quote:

 

I don't doubt that they can effect the system itself, we obviously see Leras and Sazed monkey around with Allomancy. I just wonder if maybe that's all they can do, change a few of the base rules.

 

I have a differing opinion from spending a half hour going crazy over what Sazed and Leras did with Allomancy.

 

Sazed and Leras didn't change any of the rules, so far as I can tell. I theorize that what they can modify is how the power is accessed, and even then they can only modify it in small ways. The two differences I know of in Mistborn are Snapping and the swap of atium/malatium and bendalloy/cadmium.

 

Sazed changed Snapping a little, but I don't know how. I would predict it's just much less traumatic, and not actually fundamentally different.

 

The other big change was swapping cadmium and bendalloy for atium and malatium... which didn't actually change the rules, as there were still two External Temporal metals before and after the change. The 'rule' of 4x4 (or 16) was still in effect.

 

Also, for swapping metals on the Allomantic Table, the old metals don't stop working. The system remains the same, the metals do the same things. My current theory is that the Allomantic Table only signifies what metals a new Misting will be capable of using, which is to say there were no cadmium Mistings pre-Sazed, and there are no atium Mistings post-Sazed. Allomancy isn't different, but how you access it is... and only for Mistings.

 

I don't think you can actually change the rules. Your magic system is determined entirely by your Intent when you Invest a planet, and you can make minor modifications (swapping out metals so long as they are the same 'type') to how people access it, but Shards can't alter any of the fundamentals. Those are set in stone.

 

Because of this, I would go so far as to predict that due to how something like Surgebinding is set up, it is literally impossible for any Shard to swap out a Surge with something else. There are ten fundamental forces in the Cosmere, and no others. Whereas Leras had 48 metals and only 16 had to be on his table, there are no fundamental forces that could replace any of the ones currently there. Leras was lucky that his system was as 'modifiable' as it was.

 

Furthermore, because of how the alloys of atium are all temporal, I would also predict that Sazed could only swap out temporal metals for atium and atium alloys. Lerasium can be burned by anyone, so it can't really go on the chart.

 

This seems like it applies to Elantrian magic.The same Aons will always be around (truth, light, spirit, etc.), but they will all be tied to a location, and Dominion or Devotion couldn't change that fact (though they could change the location). Getting AonDor to work would require setting up a landmark, using that landmark as a 'base' shape, and then figuring out all the Aons by trial-and-error (or with the help of a Shard) based on that shape. They might look different than the Aons of Elantris, but they'll still function the same.

 

Anyone have any conflicting evidence?

Edited November 28, 2013 by Moogle

[Aether]

Actually, all of the new Alloy of Law-era metals  - Bendalloy, Cadmium, Nicrosil and Chromium - existed pre Harmony's ascension, but the technology wasn't advanced enough to produce them (at least partly because of the Lord Ruler), and they thus remained largely unknown. Atium and Duralumin Malatium isn't really even part of the Allomantic metals, but in a group called "the God metals" which, along with Lerasium, are direct pieces of the power Ruin and Preservation.

 

Presumably, there are still Atium-mistings (Seers) around post-Harmony Ascension, but without any Atium around, there is no way for them to know what they are.

 

EDIT: Somehow mixed Duralumin with Malatium.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Satsuoni]

Actually, all of the new Alloy of Law-era metals  - Bendalloy, Cadmium, Nicrosil and Chromium - existed pre Harmony's ascension, but the technology wasn't advanced enough to produce them (at least partly because of the Lord Ruler), and they thus remained largely unknown. Atium and Duralumin isn't really even part of the Allomantic metals, but in a group called "the God metals" which, along with Lerasium, are direct pieces of the power Ruin and Preservation.

 

Presumably, there are still Atium-mistings (Seers) around post-Harmony Ascension, but without any Atium around, there is no way for them to know what they are.

Did you mean Malatium? Duralumin is a common enough metal.

 

Well, Brandon did say (repeatedly), that magic system depends on planet, Shard and sDNA, so presumably it *might* be possible to create a new system (also metal-based for Scadrial) that would work for something that is not human at all...

But, for given species on given planet, I think the rules do indeed stay more or less the same.

[Moogle]

Actually, all of the new Alloy of Law-era metals  - Bendalloy, Cadmium, Nicrosil and Chromium - existed pre Harmony's ascension, but the technology wasn't advanced enough to produce them (at least partly because of the Lord Ruler), and they thus remained largely unknown. Atium and Duralumin isn't really even part of the Allomantic metals, but in a group called "the God metals" which, along with Lerasium, are direct pieces of the power Ruin and Preservation.

 

The metals existed, but my theory is that there were no cadmium or bendalloy Mistings pre-Sazed (because Leras took the metals off the chart of 16 metals), though there were nicrosil and chromium Mistings (who didn't know they were). Essentially, I think that only Mistborn could burn cadmium/bendalloy before Sazed. This comes from a variety of sources. Here's one:

 

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers.

 

(source)

 

As to your other objection:

Presumably, there are still Atium-mistings (Seers) around post-Harmony Ascension, but without any Atium around, there is no way for them to know what they are.

 

My theory is that there aren't, because cadmium and bendalloy Mistings replaced atium and malatium Mistings.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

Actually, all of the new Alloy of Law-era metals  - Bendalloy, Cadmium, Nicrosil and Chromium - existed pre Harmony's ascension, but the technology wasn't advanced enough to produce them (at least partly because of the Lord Ruler), and they thus remained largely unknown. Atium and Duralumin isn't really even part of the Allomantic metals, but in a group called "the God metals" which, along with Lerasium, are direct pieces of the power Ruin and Preservation.

 

Presumably, there are still Atium-mistings (Seers) around post-Harmony Ascension, but without any Atium around, there is no way for them to know what they are.

 

We do know that Preservation intentionally mist-snapped Atium/Malatium mistings instead of Bendalloy/Cadmium. It remains an open question, so far as I can recall, whether that extends to such mistings only arising "naturally" (like with Yomen) because Preservation messed with stuff.

 

Source:

Question: Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy. :smileytongue:

 

Brandon: Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool--and that using it up could help defeat Ruin.  But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers.  So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers.  But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

 

P.S. Here's some more relevant quotes, for fun's sake.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Ookla the Inveterate

[Oudeis]

First, I'm not certain that I agree that changing which Mistings "snap" isn't changing the fundamentals. That seems rather fundamental to me.

 

Second, lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. You've shown that Shards don't change their own magic system a lot, you haven't shown that they can't.

 

That said, I happen to agree with you. I don't think I'm as convinced as you that it's a hard-and-fast rule, but I think you're right. I think magic systems are what they are, and the control any given Shard has over that system is rather limited. I just don't think either of us can technically prove it. With as little direct knowledge of Shards as we have, it is very hard to prove anything.

[Moogle]

 

I don't think I'm as convinced as you that it's a hard-and-fast rule, but I think you're right.

 

I'm not actually all that confident. It's very hard to come across as uncertain when proposing a new theory. You've got to list all the evidence for it, and it tends to make you seem confident.

 

My theory makes some very basic predictions, and I expect Brandon will be asked a question regarding one of them at some point. We'll see how it goes.

 

First, I'm not certain that I agree that changing which Mistings "snap" isn't changing the fundamentals. That seems rather fundamental to me.

 

Maybe. At the very least, the powers themselves are not being changed, it's how you get them that is. It's a very important distinction, I think. The shard's Intent is what determines how you get to use the magic system in question, not what you can do with it. I think this lends credence to the idea that Shards might have limited control over changing how their powers are accessed (perhaps they re-interpret their Intent?) and none whatsoever over the actual powers.

 

As you say, though, the lack of evidence is difficult to work around. I'll go post some questions in that huge thread.

[Aether]

First, I'm not certain that I agree that changing which Mistings "snap" isn't changing the fundamentals. That seems rather fundamental to me.

It should also be said that Harmony changed how snapping worked, but he couldn't get rid of it entirely. It does seem to support the hypothesis that they can make some changes, but not fundamental ones.

[Arook]

It should also be said that Harmony changed how snapping worked, but he couldn't get rid of it entirely. It does seem to support the hypothesis that they can make some changes, but not fundamental ones.

I disagree so we know of 3 magic systems on scadrial only 2 of those naturally appeared actual mist born appear to have engineered by preservation to assist in stopping ruin. Hemelurgy existed but it few if any knew it existed and is only of ruin. Feruchemy appears to be a natural part of a small group of people and would make sense that it would naturally occur because both preservation and ruin created man kind here and it is part of both. Prier to the lord rulers use of the well we know of no natural mistborn or mistings 

 

Add to the fact that harmony claims that all Lerasium we have seen comes form before the lord ruler started handing it out. That points me to the fact maybe preservation created a new system to accomplish his goal.

 

I would go more with a shard can't change the focus of the magics.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Arook

[WeiryWriter]

Hemelurgy existed but it few if any knew it existed and is only of ruin.

 

Prier to the lord rulers use of the well we know of no natural mistborn or mistings

 

Actually, mistings (but not mistborn) did exists prior to the Lord Ruler's Ascension, they were just exceedingly rare.  Alendi, for example, was a Seeker.  That, and the fact he also had a spike for Allomantic bronze, is why he could "hear" the Well.

 

Also it could be argued that Hemalurgy was in pretty wide use during the Classical period.  Metal piercings were a significant part of the culture because they served as a way to communicate with the gods. (That is why Alendi had his spikes, Ruin had manipulated the prophesies to insure the Hero was under his influence.)

[Arook]

Actually, mistings (but not mistborn) did exists prior to the Lord Ruler's Ascension, they were just exceedingly rare.  Alendi, for example, was a Seeker.  That, and the fact he also had a spike for Allomantic bronze, is why he could "hear" the Well.

 

Also it could be argued that Hemalurgy was in pretty wide use during the Classical period.  Metal piercings were a significant part of the culture because they served as a way to communicate with the gods. (That is why Alendi had his spikes, Ruin had manipulated the prophesies to insure the Hero was under his influence.)

I did not know that thank you

[Morsk]

I support this because I think if Sazed could change Hemalurgy it's the first thing he'd do. He likes using existing spikes to talk to his faithful, and to have kandra running around doing his bidding, but he could at least change the magic system so new spikes can't be created. Or (say) make all spiking require atium, and keep atium as a kandra secret. Or whatever; he's a god; he'll think of something. Since I don't think any of those things will happen, it suggests Sazed can't do much to change them.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Morsk

[Aether]

I don't think he did anything to Hemalurgy, nor that he would have wanted to change it. Only a selected few knew of it prior to Sazed's ascension, and they didn't know the specifics they would have had to known to make it work (where to place the spikes, etc.).

 

Nowadays,most likely no one except the Kandra is around that knows about it, neither is Ruin around to manipulate people into using it, so Harmony would have little inclination to do anything about it, even if he could.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Ookla the Omniscient

[Swimmingly]

I hypothesize that Sazed simply made the trauma of birth enough to Snap someone. WoB, I believe, is that he made snapping easier. What is a traumatic moment in a person's life? Birth! While this theory is entirely unsupported, I think it would be a good way to remove the "terrible mental trauma from the system

[Aether]

Brilliant! But it sort of makes it dangerous to give toddlers shots of whiskey with metal flakes in them. Imagine a drunk baby flinging metal objects around the room!

Edited December 2, 2013 by Aether

[Swimmingly]

Brilliant! But it sort of makes it dangerous to give toddlers shots of whiskey with metal flakes in them. Imagine a drunk baby flinging metal objects around the room!  Or manipulating their caretakers to give them that bloody chocolate by Soothing and Rioting

I don't think the whiskey is strictly necessary. Maybe applesauce. Imagine it: Misting Baby Formula from Li'l Allomancers Inc.

[Moogle]

I hypothesize that Sazed simply made the trauma of birth enough to Snap someone. WoB, I believe, is that he made snapping easier. What is a traumatic moment in a person's life? Birth! While this theory is entirely unsupported, I think it would be a good way to remove the "terrible mental trauma from the system

 

I like this theory. It was how Vin Snapped. She just had a very long and hard birth. I don't recall the WoB saying he just made it easier though. All I recall is Brandon being vague and saying that he changed it.

[Windrunner]

KCHAN

How does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain.

Source

[Aether]

I don't think the whiskey is strictly necessary. Maybe applesauce. Imagine it: Misting Baby Formula from Li'l Allomancers Inc.

I know. Wax even have a monologue on how most people miss out on the opportunity. But alas, 'twas but a vain attempt at being funny. You succeeded where I failed, my friend!

[Vortaan]

Weighing in finally on the topic an offhand comment of mine prompted.. swapping out metals and changing Snapping seem like rather large adjustments to the system to me. No, I don't think Shards can change the framework, but throwing different paint on the walls certainly changes the room, at least from the inside. Clumsy analogy, but that's pretty much how I see it.

 

Second note: we don't know that Sazed didn't change Hemalurgy at all. We have zero knowledge of how Hemalurgy works after he became Harmony. Maybe taking powers is less harmful now. Maybe it's not. We just don't have any knowledge about it.

 

Third note: I wonder if anyone ever Snapped because they were getting spiked? What would that do to the spike? Like let's say you are making a kandra Blessing and someone Snaps during it... does the spike steal the greater power, or the bit of Preservation?

[Shardlet]

Third note: I wonder if anyone ever Snapped because they were getting spiked? What would that do to the spike? Like let's say you are making a kandra Blessing and someone Snaps during it... does the spike steal the greater power, or the bit of Preservation?

 

It would steal the power the spiker intended to steal.  Intent is critical in hemalurgy.

 

 

Q: If you shot Miles with pewter bullets through the heart, would the bullets become hemalurgically charged and remove Miles’s bloodmaking ability?

 

A: Umm, you would have to get them in exactly the right place.

 

Q: Oh, so it’s more than just the heart, it’s got to be the right place in the heart?

 

A: Well, you have to, it’s like acupuncture.  A hemalurgic spike has to be specifically placed.

 

Q: Well, I don’t mean for placement. I just mean for making Miles a donor.

 

A: You could hemalurgically steal Miles’s power.

 

Q: With pewter bullets?

 

A: I don’t know that bullets would work.  But they might.  How about this, it is theoretically possible to do what you just described.  If you knew what you were doing,  because intention is part of a lot of the magic system.  Intention is involved.  It’s tricky because Ruin did it to people who didn’t know what they were doing, but…

Q: But, Ruin intended to do it, though.

 

A: But, Ruin intended to do it and knows how to manipulate it so that intentions would happen.  Intention is very important, if you read through the magics, to a lot of them.

 

Q: It is part of the cognitive aspect.

 

A: Yes.

 

Source

[Kurkistan]

Intent's interaction with Hemalurgy may start and end at "I intend to perform Hemalurgy", though. I don't think that Hemalurgic experimentation with the metals would have worked out as well as it did (since apparently there was at least some experimentation, with Atium spikes) if you needed to know/intend what powers you were going to steal in the first place.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Ookla the Inveterate

[Vortaan]

Intent's interaction with Hemalurgy may start and end at "I intend to perform Hemalurgy", though. I don't think that Hemalurgic experimentation with the metals would have worked out as well as it did (since apparently there was at least some experimentation, with Atium spikes) if you needed to know/intend what powers you were going to steal in the first place.

 

No, I'd buy that, because they could have stolen the power they wanted but never found a good bind point for it beyond the Inquisitor ones.

[Oudeis]

Like let's say you are making a kandra Blessing and someone Snaps during it... does the spike steal the greater power, or the bit of Preservation?

 

Different metal spikes steal different things. The Kandra Blessing spikes specifically steal human attributes, not allomantic or feruchemical powers. If you stab someone with an Iron spike, it will steal their physical strength; if the process causes them to Snap into a pewter misting, your iron spike can't steal that, because it takes a steel spike to steal an Allomantic physical ability. I suppose if you stab someone in the right theftpoint with a steel spike, you can gamble that the stabbing will cause them to Snap, and then steal the newly-awakened pewter, but I think Snapping requires that you survive a near-death experience, not simply die. That's character knowledge in the book, not proven metaphysics, so it's less-than-perfect canon.

[Satsuoni]

Also, unless Vin's sister also Snapped during her childbirth, one does not need to be Snapped to be a valid Hemalurgic donor for Allomancy spikes. The fact that Hemalurgy can be used from conception onwards seems to confirm that.