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Theory: Gemhearts are the body of Cultivation


sandro

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So, in another thread we are comparing the highstorms(body of honor) to the mists(body of preservation).  I wonder if we could draw a similar parallel between atium(body of ruin) and gemhearts(body of cultivation).  

 

We know that atium is caused by the physical body of the shard leaking into the physical realm and manifesting in solid form. Also, they fuel allomancy.  

 

We've been told that the chasmfiends have a symbiotic relationship with some spren that allows them to grow to their enormous size.  Perhaps that spren is feeding leaked cultivation essense into the gemheart and causing it to manifest and grow.  We know that soulcasting consumes the stormlight, but perhaps there is a special power available that would consume the gem inself.  Much like atium is only consumed if a specific power is used.

Edited by sandro
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This is possible. However, each shard's body comes in several forms. We have the mists, the Well and lerasium, then the smoke, Ruin's shardpool and atium. Within Roshar my opinion is that the gemhearts are more analogous to the metals on Scadrial, whose specific atomic composition allowed them to create an access pathway to Preservation's power. On Roshar, the specific gem seems to be important when used in fabrials. If Cultivation (or Honor) was to have a body represented as a gem then such a gemstone would, based on how atium works in hemalurgy, work in any fabrials. Unfortunately, our knowledge of how fabrials interact with their specific gemstone is limited.

 

It does seem that surgebinding is much closer to feruchemy than to allomancy at this point, since gemstones are not used up. (they do shatter with excessive use). However, of the powers we have seen, only soulcasting/fabrials care about the type of gemstone used.

 

My (partial) disagreement comes from how we have seen no solid body form for either Cultivation or Honor, so gemhearts/stones cannot really be tied to either shard.

Edited by Araris Valerian
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Welcome! Starting a thread with your first post seems brilliant.  Have an upvote. This seems like an interesting idea.

gemhearts(body of cultivation

 

We know that atium is caused by the physical body of the shard leaking into the physical realm and manifesting in solid form. Also, they fuel allomancy.  

 

We've been told that the chasmfiends have a symbiotic relationship with some spren that allows them to grow to their enormous size.  Perhaps that spren is feeding leaked cultivation essense into the gemheart and causing it to manifest and grow.  We know that soulcasting consumes the stormlight, but perhaps there is a special power available that would consume the gem inself.  Much like atium is only consumed if a specific power is used.

One minor issue about forum etiquette.  People in this forum may not have read Mistborn yet, so IIRC it is customary to include references to other works in spoiler tags (I know this doesn't always happen, but I think it is polite).

 

I have trouble with this theory because when I compare gems to the examples of the solid bodies of Shards that I can think of.  Solid bodies of Shards:

  1. rare
  2. unique (planet-specific)
  3. do amazing things

Mistborn spoiler

  1. Atium is unique to Scadrial, allows future sight and is extremely rare.
  2. Lerasium is unique to Scadrial, gives one (and one's descendents) the ability to become an extremely strong mistborn and we know of about 12 beads of it.

 

So while gems are used to do amazing things, they seem more comparable other allomantic metals (what Araris said) than the body of a Shard to me.  They seem to be normal gems and are common enough to be used as currency, lighting and in reasonably common fabrials. Gems are used in the magic of Roshar, but the Shardic investiture seems to be more in the spren and the stormlight as I see it. 

Edited by hoser
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Here, have a quote (Mistborn spoilers).

 

Source:

Viper

Ok. The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way Atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

 

Brandon Sanderson

It's similar. The pits are an area where there's like a leak from the spiritual realm into the physical. That's what happens there.

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I actually wanted to post this myself :)

 

I don't think gemhearts are just gems, and probably there are no "ordinary" gems on Roshar. If you would bring gems to Roshar, they might not hold stormlight.

 

Gemhearts do one extraordinary thing: they store stormlight.

 

And of all the shards, gemhearts coming from Cultivation fits best. Although, on other worlds, the shard's body did not have anything in common with the shard's intent.

 

Still, you have an upvote for beating me in posting this :)

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I actually wanted to post this myself :)

 

I don't think gemhearts are just gems, and probably there are no "ordinary" gems on Roshar. If you would bring gems to Roshar, they might not hold stormlight.

 

Gemhearts do one extraordinary thing: they store stormlight.

 

And of all the shards, gemhearts coming from Cultivation fits best. Although, on other worlds, the shard's body did not have anything in common with the shard's intent.

 

Still, you have an upvote for beating me in posting this :)

 

I'm not so sure on gemstones in general being special.

 

Source:

ArsenoPyrite:
I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gem? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements--in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron). Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!
 
Brandon:
I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.
 
So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the mistborn world, Emerald and Heliodor can be very similar--but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.
 
So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic--it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

 

 

So "physical items... provide a key by which magical interaction occurs".

 

Do we know if gems come from anywhere other than gemhearts?

 

Almost certainly. There are simply too many in circulation for any other explanation. See also the Shin and their Shin-ness about harming the rock to mine gems, if I recall correctly.

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Further to what Mirianmi said, I got the impression that gemhearts are more than just basic gems.  Is there such a thing as a gemheart ruby and a gemheart emerald?  I don't think I've ever seen them referred to as such.  I think a gemheart is a distinct kind of gem.

 

Edit: I stand corrected.  Guess it's time for another read-through.

Edited by sandro
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Is it necessarily gems, or is it stone in general? I know there isn't much evidence other than the Shin's dissaproval of 'stonewalkers' and thinking stone is holy. Actually, thinking about it, that could add to the gemhearts theory. They respect stone because it "grows" gems. Hmmm.

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First, a bit of housekeeping. I am moving this topic to the Cosmere theories board, as it references Ruin and Preservation in the opening post.

 

Moving on, I agree with Araris Valerian and hoser completely. The gemstones we've seen are no more fantastic than Scadrial's metals (and yes, I do believe that you could use any of the Polestones from any planet to hold Stormlight, or burn metals from any world in Allomancy).

 

I do have an alternate idea though, that I may refine into a full theory.. Brandon's made allusion to the fact that metals that are burned returned to Scadrial in some way, they aren't gone forever. I believe a similar process is happening with color on Nalthis. The Tears are a supernatural way to return the color that is "used up," for lack of a better term, to Nalthis. I think this is simply the same process happening on Roshar. Gems are the Physical aspect of the investiture, just like metal or color. The gems are used up and broken (although smaller parts can be used and broken up further and so on) and then return in the form of gemhearts.

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I am surprised no one in this thread has suggested the Highstorms as a possible body of one of the Shards. It is attributed to Jezrien a.k.a. Stormfather in Vorin mythology, sure, but it's true origin (or rather Origin) might still be "Shardic".

 

 

It would fit the description of a Shardic body though:

  • it has a physical representation (the Stormwinds) in the Physical Realm (or at the very least have physical consequences)
  • it provides a leak from the Spiritual Realm and/or Cognitive real from which one can draw power - or in this case store it in Spheres to use at a later time - much like Mistborn/Seers could burn Atium and Vin draw upon the mists.

 

 

EDIT: I somehow completely missed that the very first post referred to the Highstorms as a possible candidate for the body of Honour. And just to follow up on that, I am not sure we need the Gemhearts to be the actual body of any one of the Shards. They are the consequence of leaks of spiritual powers, but not necessarily directly from the body of a Shard. It might just be the creatures of Roshar's way of harnessing the power of the Highstorms / harnessing the body of a Shard.

Edited by Aether
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My suspicion, admittedly not rock-hard, is that Surgebinding is Honor's form of Investiture, and that the Old Magic is Cultivation's. As gems are an integral part of surgebinding, I'd suspect the gemhearts to be more associated with Honor than with Cultivation. And I agree with the statement above, that gemhearts are to lerasium as gems are to typical metals of Scadrial. I do not agree that any gem will hold Stormlight or that any metal could be burned; I think Shards fully Invest in a planet and make something Spiritually different about their planet, that is expressed in the special metal of Scadrial and the special gems of Roshar.

 

Although, something I haven't thought of before. Ruin and Preservation's magics both used the same metals, and they both had metal bodies. Might that extend? Does the Old Magic also use gems somehow? Could different Gemhearts be the bodies of Honor and Cultivation?

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In my mind, at this point there's no doubt that Surgebinding is a balance magic between Honor and Cultivation. Swearing oaths that can slowly help you grow into a better person? Spren that are made of both their power? The only potential hiccup I see thus far is that we really don't know which Shard it is that Stormlight comes from.

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In my mind, at this point there's no doubt that Surgebinding is a balance magic between Honor and Cultivation. Swearing oaths that can slowly help you grow into a better person? Spren that are made of both their power? The only potential hiccup I see thus far is that we really don't know which Shard it is that Stormlight comes from.

 

That's very possible, even likely. I guess I have just one question.

 

What is the Old Magic? I suppose if it isn't her system of Investiture, it's simply Cultivation's direct intervention in the world, as we've seen Harmony (and, it could be argued, Endowment) do. It feels like a simple and unsatisfying answer, but that doesn't mean it's unlikely.

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I do have an alternate idea though, that I may refine into a full theory.. Brandon's made allusion to the fact that metals that are burned returned to Scadrial in some way, they aren't gone forever. I believe a similar process is happening with color on Nalthis. The Tears are a supernatural way to return the color that is "used up," for lack of a better term, to Nalthis. I think this is simply the same process happening on Roshar. Gems are the Physical aspect of the investiture, just like metal or color. The gems are used up and broken (although smaller parts can be used and broken up further and so on) and then return in the form of gemhearts.

This is brilliant! I'm adopting this position until such time as future evidence contradicts it...

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In my mind, at this point there's no doubt that Surgebinding is a balance magic between Honor and Cultivation. Swearing oaths that can slowly help you grow into a better person? Spren that are made of both their power? The only potential hiccup I see thus far is that we really don't know which Shard it is that Stormlight comes from.

 

Actually the question that enters my mind is what is Honor's specific magic? We've got Voidbinding, Surgebinding, and the Old Magic... and no hint of an Honor-based system. Any thoughts?

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We don't know.  But one thing is for sure, they are not only functionally immortal, they are somewhere between functionally immortal and absolutely immortal.  Also, no apparent indication of a power does not equal absence of a power. Especially considering how very scant the screen time has been for the Heralds so far and the distinct lack of any apparent need to use an ability.

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... Hrm. Alright, I'll bite. What can Heralds do? Keep in mind that we've seen at least one who didn't seem to have any special powers (Baxil's Mistress)

We don't know.  But one thing is for sure, they are not only functionally immortal, they are somewhere between functionally immortal and absolutely immortal.  Also, no apparent indication of a power does not equal absence of a power. Especially considering how very scant the screen time has been for the Heralds so far and the distinct lack of any apparent need to use an ability.

Being between functionally immortal and absolutely immortal would be a good enough power for most people, to be honest. Who can become a better storehouse of information through time, an Archivist Ferring or someone with an unlimited lifespan? Is it better to be a Bloodmaker Ferring, or someone who comes back when they die? Who is better able to control other people, an Allomantic brass Savant/Feruchemical duralumin Twinborn spiked with Allomantic zinc, or someone who has at centuries to study the human condition, to set up inscrutable plans which only blossom generations later. Immortality is the gift that keeps on giving if you play it smart and plan out your time.

 

Of course you could equally spend your centuries drinking, and playing WoW (or the Cosmere equivalent) and do no growing what-so-ever, but I think I'd prefer to spend my time becoming more awesome.

 

I may have to pack two Atium spikes for my trip to Roshar...

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Who can become a better storehouse of information through time, an Archivist Ferring or someone with an unlimited lifespan? 

 To be honest, I agree with most of your post, but I've completely forgotten entire courses worth of stuff I learned only a few years ago.  Living forever just means you forget more stuff :)  

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One word: Heralds

 

That is where my mind went... I'm not sold that surgebinding is of both Shards, but if it is, the Old Magic seems to be a matter of direct-intervention on the part of Cultivation. If Honor has ever directly intervened, it would be the Heralds, yes? I can see a scenario where Honor and Cultivation, a romantic couple, would craft one system of magic between them. Only when Odium showed up did they find cause to act seperately, and direct intervention (old magic/heralds) could be the result. Like how Ati made all that atium which ostensibly is not as "powerful" as lerasium, but he made just a few beads, Cultivation could have a great number of people with tiny gifts (offset by curses) while Honor made just ten individuals with power beyond imagining.

 

I'm still not sold on the idea, but I certainly see it as more than plausible.

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