Shardblades with stormlight [Major spoilers for Mistborn, some spoilers for Way of Kings]

[Oudeis]

Not positive this is technically cosmere-wide enough to warrant being posted here, rather than in Stormlight Archives, but the Archives forum is turning radioactive with people posting Word of Radiance spoilers, so I'm going to be keeping my distance until the book comes out in May.

 

So, follow my train of thought. It's not a terribly complicated question...

 

On Scadrial, Vin can burn steel, no problem. However, when she burns the mist, she can steelpush like nobody's business.

 

Now Roshar. Apart from The Thrill and Shallan's Memories, both of which I'm putting to the side right now, we've never seen any form of Investiture that doesn't need Stormlight except for Shardblades.

 

Just today, I saw a new question Mr. Sanderson has apparently answered.

 

Wetlander: Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor? (Brandon spoke over the word Honor in starting his response)

A: The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. (also affirmed the well as being similar).

 

So. The highstorms are something like mist. Shardblades seem to have inherent investiture, just like allomancy.

 

So I wonder. What would happen if you could infuse a Shardblade? Is that possible? What would happen?

 

edit: Because it was wordy so I got rid of some unneccesary stuff.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Darnam

[Kurkistan]

If you replace "Shardblades seem to have inherent investiture, just like allomancy." with "just like Awakened objects" or "just like Hemalurgic spikes", I think we're in business.

 

That said, I doubt you could infuse one, as they are "full" of Investiture. Source.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Argent]

Aye. Blades are already Invested objects. But Kurk apparently has much less life than I do and regularly beats me to topics which I can respond to helpfully...

[Kurkistan]

Aye. Blades are already Invested objects. But Kurk apparently has much less life than I do and regularly beats me to topics which I can respond to helpfully...

 

Yes. 

[Oudeis]

If you replace "Shardblades seem to have inherent investiture, just like allomancy." with "just like Awakened objects" or "just like Hemalurgic spikes", I think we're in business.

 

I picked these two because they have circumstances that are somewhat unique. There may be other examples throughout the cosmere, but none that I've seen so far.

 

Shardblades are unique in their world, because they seem to break the rule of their world. Literally every other form of Investiture we've seen requires Stormlight (apart from Shallan's Memories and The Thrill, neither of which we really know much about). Blades don't.

 

We know that metals fuel allomancy, but unlike any other form of Investiture I can think of, we've seen it receive a power boost from the mists.

 

Also, per the OP quote, Brandon has admitted there are similarities between highstorms and Scadrian mist.

 

I understand that a Shardblade is naturally 'full' of Investiture, and I wasn't trying to suggest that I thought it could be done as simply as Navani would design a fabrial. I was thinking more along the lines of what happened to Vin. I don't have the quote handy, but WoB has said that she had more power pumped into her than she could hold, and it gave her temporary INSANE powers, and burned her through. I was thinking it might be something similar to that. Mayhaps one day we will see someone in a highstorm wield a Shardblade, and somehow infuse it, causing it to do something absolutely extraordinary with big consequences from channeling more juice than it could safely handle.

[Argent]

Eh... I see the direction of your thoughts much better now, but they still feel weird to me. I am sorry, I can't explain it. What I could support is seeing a Surgebinder go out during a highstorm and pull a Vin. When Szeth inhales too much Stormlight, he talks - or thinks, rather - about feeling like it would burst through him, but never does he mention that he can't take more. The feeling he describes sounds different from, say, the feeling you get when you eat too much. In this rather mundane case, you feel like you just can't take another bite. With Szeth I feel like he could easily inhale even more Stormlight, but he prudently decides not to, since meeting an exploding end is not high on his Christmas list. 

 

Thinking about it this way, it feels more natural for people to be able to choose to burn away their Physical form by taking in too much Investiture. That still leaves their Cognitive and Spiritual aspects to wield the power - this is a recipe for gods, I think. With objects it's probably different. Objects, for the most part, don't have strong presence in all three realms. Physical, obviously yes. Cognitive, probably also yes (as you can access Shadesmar and change how objects "view" themselves, thereby turning them into other objects; this is the good ol' Soulcasting). The Spiritual Realm, however... Shai claims that all things exist in all three realms, but I don't know if even an Invested object will have a strong Spiritual presence. 

 

This being said, I think I may have argued myself into a corner... I'll revisit this with a fresher mind.

[Kadrok]

I like your thinking Argent. Upvote. However, if I may...

Thinking about it this way, it feels more natural for people to be able to choose to burn away their Physical form by taking in too much Investiture. That still leaves their Cognitive and Spiritual aspects to wield the power - this is a recipe for gods, I think.

Can I suggest "disperse" instead of "burn away"? After all, Leras and Ati both left bodies, as did Vin as I recall... so the bodies exist somewhere, or are in some state, when you're using the power (I imagine Rashek and the well are an exception given he never really held the shard on his own, he was more "lent" the power, and further Rashek was able to edit his body while using the power. I digress).

 

BRAINWAVE! Perhaps the bodies of Shardholders (not to be confused with Shardbearers) exist in a state similar to Heralds and Shardblades while they're using the power... something physical stored in Shadesmar (or where ever...)

[The Count]

 The Spiritual Realm, however... Shai claims that all things exist in all three realms, but I don't know if even an Invested object will have a strong Spiritual presence. 

 

This being said, I think I may have argued myself into a corner... I'll revisit this with a fresher mind.

 

But surely the investiture itself provides the spiritual presence?

 

A mundane object, I agree would probably have a minimal spiritual presence.

 

But investiture, by its nature is mostly spiritual, isn't it?

 

Therefore the act of investing an object gives it a very strong spiritual component.

 

For me, the interesting thing about Shardblades is that they seem to have a reduced Physical presence compared to regular swords. They seem ony to be kept in the physical world by force of will.

 

I suppose a realmatic answer would say, that the cognitive force of the user imposes a physical presence on an otherwise mostly spiritual object.

[Argent]

I am not sure if we know that Investiture is mostly a Spiritual entity. It sounds like it could be, but there is so little know about it or the Spiritual Realm, that we should be very careful with those leaps of logic. 

 

Still, that's kind of why I said that I'd argued myself into a corner

[Kurkistan]

I've had similar doubts about the composition of Investiture, but I think it's almost certainly primarily Spiritual. Feruchemical nicrosil (Investiture) as a Spiritual metal, the Spiritual realm as providing energy, and a dozen other little hints all seem to push us in that direction.

 

Beyond that, there's a not-foolproof proof for Investiture as primarily Spiritual:

 

1. We know that Stormlight is Investiture.

2. We know that that highstorms are closely related to the mists from Scadrial.

3. We can surmise that the mists, as the "body of preservation" and the power left over when Leras sacrificed his mind to imprison Ruin, is Spiritual.

 

Given our acceptance of 3, it follows relatively easily that Investiture is Spiritual.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Oudeis]

Beyond that, there's a not-foolproof proof for Investiture as primarily Spiritual:

 

1. We know that Stormlight is Investiture.

 

3. We can surmise that the mists, as the "body of preservation" and the power left over when Leras sacrificed his mind to imprison Ruin, is Spiritual.

 

I actually disagree. For the first part, I simply think the phrase "Investiture" is broader than you think, and can mean more than you think it does. But I could easily be wrong on that point.

 

As for the last part, I'm almost positive that the mist is one aspect of his physical body. I'm sure Kelsier said something similar when Vin was taking in the mist. I feel like a lot of people see "three states of matter" and "three realms" and just assume that each state has to correlate to one realm. Honestly, I think anything that IS clearly physical means "physical realm". Mist can be touched. I do realize it has a few peculiarities, because it IS influenced by Preservation's spiritual aspect, but it itself is physical. The mist, the Well, and the lerasium, all aspect of his body, like blood, bone and muscle.

 

For contrast, take Syl. She has no weight and cannot be felt. She follows the wind if she feels like it. It's all she can do to carry a single leaf, and "binding" to things is even in her wheelhouse. She chooses (largely) who can and cannot see her. She clearly barely exists in the physical realm, and we've got WoB that spren are cognitive aspects. I think the mist is too obviously physical to be a spiritual aspect.

[Argent]

Except it doesn't. Because you are essentially saying "I assume that my assumption that the mists are Spiritual is correct, therefore the mists are Spiritual." Yes, they probably are. Yes, Investiture also probably is. But I'll need more in terms of evidence - or logical proofs - to move past the "probably."

[Kurkistan]

I picked these two because they have circumstances that are somewhat unique. There may be other examples throughout the cosmere, but none that I've seen so far.

 

Shardblades are unique in their world, because they seem to break the rule of their world. Literally every other form of Investiture we've seen requires Stormlight (apart from Shallan's Memories and The Thrill, neither of which we really know much about). Blades don't.

 

We know that metals fuel allomancy, but unlike any other form of Investiture I can think of, we've seen it receive a power boost from the mists.

 

Also, per the OP quote, Brandon has admitted there are similarities between highstorms and Scadrian mist.

 

I understand that a Shardblade is naturally 'full' of Investiture, and I wasn't trying to suggest that I thought it could be done as simply as Navani would design a fabrial. I was thinking more along the lines of what happened to Vin. I don't have the quote handy, but WoB has said that she had more power pumped into her than she could hold, and it gave her temporary INSANE powers, and burned her through. I was thinking it might be something similar to that. Mayhaps one day we will see someone in a highstorm wield a Shardblade, and somehow infuse it, causing it to do something absolutely extraordinary with big consequences from channeling more juice than it could safely handle.

 

Ah. I see now why you picked Alllomancy. So it's all about exceeding the normal bounds.

 

Still, I don't think so. Shardblades don't seem to be "input compatible", to make up a phrase. Whereas Allomancy is all about getting some power from elsewhere (Preservation, as the case may be), and Vin's super-burning was simply a matter of degree, Shardblades are entirely self-contained.

 

It may simply not be possible to pump more energy into them, both because of their "fullness" and because they might simply lack "in-ports" for that energy to be sent through.

 

I actually disagree. For the first part, I simply think the phrase "Investiture" is broader than you think, and can mean more than you think it does. But I could easily be wrong on that point.

 

A distinct possibility. But Brandon just flat out said "stormlight is Investiture", so I'm starting to think it could just be that simple.

 

As for the last part, I'm almost positive that the mist is one aspect of his physical body. I'm sure Kelsier said something similar when Vin was taking in the mist. I feel like a lot of people see "three states of matter" and "three realms" and just assume that each state has to correlate to one realm. Honestly, I think anything that IS clearly physical means "physical realm". Mist can be touched. I do realize it has a few peculiarities, because it IS influenced by Preservation's spiritual aspect, but it itself is physical. The mist, the Well, and the lerasium, all aspect of his body, like blood, bone and muscle.

 

I had not been associating the "three states of matter" with the realms, but I suppose your assumption that I was was a fair mistake. But no, something being clearly physical does not mean that it's essential properties are in the Physical Realm. Everything has a Physical aspect, so we may need to get all Aristotelian on it and ask what's essential about it. And it's the Spiritual for Atium, at the very least.

 

Source:

Viper: So what's at the core of an atom of Atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

BS: Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something]

is what makes it magical. (note: he might've said slightly more about this but I didn't write it down and I don't remember. Sorry for not bringing a tape recorder :(/> )

Viper: Ok. The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in way of kings ... is that the same as the way Atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

BS: It's similar. The pits are an area where there's like a leak from the spiritual realm into the physical. That's what happens there

 

This leads me to conclude that the various other forms of Shards' bodies on Scadrial are also made "magical" by their Spiritual components.

 

So far as "essentialness" goes, consider this: A rock is just as physically present as a person. Yet we'd certainly say that a person's Cognitive and Spiritual Aspects are more pronounced in proportion to his/her physicality than the rock's are.

-Though this kind of difference in degree might not extend to differences in kind, so "essentialsness" might not be a good metric.

 

For contrast, take Syl. She has no weight and cannot be felt. She follows the wind if she feels like it. It's all she can do to carry a single leaf, and "binding" to things is even in her wheelhouse. She chooses (largely) who can and cannot see her. She clearly barely exists in the physical realm, and we've got WoB that spren are cognitive aspects. I think the mist is too obviously physical to be a spiritual aspect.

 

We don't have that WoB, actually, particularly since they (or at least the kind we see running around) are not Cognitive aspects.

 

Besides that, I would argue that the mists, of all things, are even more ethereal than Syl. You might be able to use Syl to make an argument for the solidity of the Well or Lerasium giving more credence to them being Physical in nature, but not the mists.

----

 

Except it doesn't. Because you are essentially saying "I assume that my assumption that the mists are Spiritual is correct, therefore the mists are Spiritual." Yes, they probably are. Yes, Investiture also probably is. But I'll need more in terms of evidence - or logical proofs - to move past the "probably."

 

That's a tad harsh, Argent.

 

If anything, I was saying "I assume that the mists are Spiritual, therefore Investiture is Spiritual." A far more far-reaching conclusion.

 

At no point did I try to use my assumption that the mists were Spiritual to "prove" their Spirituality.

 

I also acknowledged the assumption-based nature of 3, though perhaps I should have taken pains to emphasize that going from the connection between the highstorms and the mists to stormlight and the mists was not 100% solid either.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Shardlet]

I don't think investiture is the right term for the mists and the stormlight.  At least specifically.  Investiture could be a general catch-all perhaps in a genus-species way.  But, Brandon told wetlander that he has not yet discussed the terminology to qualify the mists and highstorms.

[Meg]

Thinking about it this way, it feels more natural for people to be able to choose to burn away their Physical form by taking in too much Investiture. That still leaves their Cognitive and Spiritual aspects to wield the power - this is a recipe for gods, I think.

 

 

Might I ask:

 

1. "their physical form": "Form" within the meaning of ...? Aspect? Shape? Idea? Version? Body (flesh, blood, bones ...)? I think, you meant the latter.

 

2. Why should one -- a 'Shardholder' -- try to get rid of their physical bodies? If this was the perfect recipe for becoming a god, why didn't all those 'Shardholders' act this way? Thinking of Tanavast, Skai and Aona it doesn't seem to be the right way. 

 

I think that holding cosmerian ( ) power needs fully capable people and those exist of all three "aspects" and would be imbalanced and thus not able to hold that power (like, when Leras and Ati both were dead).

[Oudeis]

 A distinct possibility. But Brandon just flat out said "stormlight is Investiture", so I'm starting to think it could just be that simple.

 

I think you may be missing my point. I agree, Brandon said, "stormlight is investiture" and so it is. What I'm saying is, I don't think you can say that all fingers are thumbs just because all thumbs are fingers. Yes, stormlight is investiture. Does that mean that Investiture can only mean "things of the spiritual realm"? Maybe on Scadrial, steel is investiture, and it's certainly got a strong physical aspect. Maybe a Dakhor bone on Sel is investiture. What about a memory in a coppermind? It surely is investiture, but it's a memory, there's a strong case to be made that it must have a big cognitive component.

[Kurkistan]

@Shardlet

Perhaps. That whole answer about mists and highstorms is a bit less than clear, given that Brandon seems to have misunderstood the question to some degree.

I may have gotten a tad defensive here, I will admit. I think the evidence strongly points towards Investiture as Spiritual, but none of the little bits pointing towards it being so are quite enough.

[Argent]

I apologize, of course. But my point was moot anyway. The question (and answer) about the Pits of Hathsin convinced me that the Shards / the Shards's bodies / the Shards' power / any raw Investiture are Spiritual entities above all else. If atium is Ruin's body, and we know that a Shard's body and their power are synonymous, then the fact that atium "oozes" from the Spiritual into the Physical Realm is pretty much definite proof that the power of the Shards comes from the Spiritual Realm. And since Investiture is essentially Shardic power, it must also come from there. 

 

EDIT: @Meg, yes, I meant "body". Those forms will be the end of you, eh? But I am not sure that not discarding your body, as a Shard(holder), is even an option. I doubt any living thing is capable of containing the power of an entire Shard.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Argent

[Kurkistan]

@Darnam (sorry, you Ninja'd me before)

 

A fair criticism. To me, stormlight looks pretty pure, not differentiated like Atium or an Aon or Forgery or the like, leading to the (unspoken) assumption that it was a "higher order" of Investiture. Though steel is certainly not Investiture on Scadrial, since the metals merely serve as keys for Allomancy, not its source of power.

 

Memories make a good point, as would most of the rest of the Feruchemical attributes if you cared to bring them in. Then again, somehow Feruchemy can store food of all things, leading me to think that there's a way to transform those attributes into a more generalized form (read: Investiture). I'm fairly confident I could provide a semi-coherent theory of everything being stored in a fundamentally Spiritual fashion, but I think we'd all prefer not to get into it.

 

@Argent

 

No problem, I just like the criticisms of my horrible leaps of logic to have been applied to to the real ones.

 

Honestly, I should have just lead with the Atium quote... Or better yet trawled through the MEC and picked out all my quotes from there rather than settling on the first one I could remember. Or just left well enough alone.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Oudeis]

To me, stormlight looks pretty pure, not differentiated like Atium or an Aon or Forgery or the like, leading to the (unspoken) assumption that it was a "higher order" of Investiture.

 

First, upvote to you for being a rational, intelligent and polite debate partner. Talking with you is a pleasure and an education.

 

Second, I can see why you'd say that. "Raw Investiture" is clearly energy, what Mr. Sanderson has called the Power of Creation, and so it seems like what you experience when you're in the presence of stormlight might be raw investiture itself. I propose, however, an alternate theory.

 

Atium is, from a molecular standpoint, simply metal, nothing special about it, wrapped up in a lot of spiritual power. I think stormlight is just simple light, at its smallest level nothing more interesting than photons traveling in either waves or lines at the speed of eponymy, yet wrapped in the power of the spiritual realm. Is it possible that bonding spiritual...ness to energy makes you somehow 'closer' to raw investiture than to mass? I suppose. Making things uneven is something Mr. Sanderson would do, and the "magic" of Roshar does seem vastly stronger than it does on other worlds, so you have a case. I'm going to choose to remain skeptical, but there are many things in the cosmere I choose to believe that I can't prove more than "likely", so you will get no judgement from me.

 

One thing that, and I don't have any quotes at hand, but I'm sure I've heard Mr. Sanderson imply often enough, that actually bothers me a little. The spiritual realm seems so... boring. The physical realm is where, for better or worse, most people are stuck. It is the stage for whatever happens, it is the place where you can be stabbed to death. The cognitive realm is awesome, it lets you worldhop and it's where walls wish to be beautiful, and it seems to be where all the really interesting, intricate laws of magic come from. The Spiritual Realm is... just power. Nothing but an endless supply of clean energy. Boring. I mean sure, your spiritweb seems to have some effect on how you manifest this power. But for the most part, my impression of that place is that it's simply the Dor, an endless well of raw power constantly trying to force its way into our world, willing to perform whatever task humans set it to if it means the ability to expend itself. I sorta hope we learn at some point that it's more interesting than that.

[Kurkistan]

First, upvote to you for being a rational, intelligent and polite debate partner. Talking with you is a pleasure and an education.

 

Thank you. I apologize for whenever I come across as a bit curt. As it turns out, spending a fair portion of my time posting WoB's in reply to others' questions has Cultivated a tone of surety on my part which is not appropriate for speculative discussions.

 

Second, I can see why you'd say that. "Raw Investiture" is clearly energy, what Mr. Sanderson has called the Power of Creation, and so it seems like what you experience when you're in the presence of stormlight might be raw investiture itself. I propose, however, an alternate theory.

 

Atium is, from a molecular standpoint, simply metal, nothing special about it, wrapped up in a lot of spiritual power. I think stormlight is just simple light, at its smallest level nothing more interesting than photons traveling in either waves or lines at the speed of eponymy, yet wrapped in the power of the spiritual realm. Is it possible that bonding spiritual...ness to energy makes you somehow 'closer' to raw investiture than to mass? I suppose. Making things uneven is something Mr. Sanderson would do, and the "magic" of Roshar does seem vastly stronger than it does on other worlds, so you have a case. I'm going to choose to remain skeptical, but there are many things in the cosmere I choose to believe that I can't prove more than "likely", so you will get no judgement from me.

 

Interesting... Maybe... Myself, I'm half convinced that stormlight isn't even light in the proper sense, and that it'll turn out that only Cognitively-active beings can perceive it. But that's one of my more (or is it less?) half-baked theories.

 

One thing that, and I don't have any quotes at hand, but I'm sure I've heard Mr. Sanderson imply often enough, that actually bothers me a little. The spiritual realm seems so... boring. The physical realm is where, for better or worse, most people are stuck. It is the stage for whatever happens, it is the place where you can be stabbed to death. The cognitive realm is awesome, it lets you worldhop and it's where walls wish to be beautiful, and it seems to be where all the really interesting, intricate laws of magic come from. The Spiritual Realm is... just power. Nothing but an endless supply of clean energy. Boring. I mean sure, your spiritweb seems to have some effect on how you manifest this power. But for the most part, my impression of that place is that it's simply the Dor, an endless well of raw power constantly trying to force its way into our world, willing to perform whatever task humans set it to if it means the ability to expend itself. I sorta hope we learn at some point that it's more interesting than that.

 

If you want some more activity from the Spiritual, I've got a few threads for you:

 

Forms: Simplified. One of mine, since I'm a narcissistic soul. I theorize that a lot of the more high-level magical effects and interactions are governed by high-level abstractions that have taken on independent existence. And they live in the Spiritual, so a bit more stuff going on there.

 

Discussions of the Spiritweb. This is another Form thread, but it got derailed into Wonderland so fast that you wouldn't even believe me until you saw it. Just ignore the OP and read the rather fascinating theory that Aaradel spins out over several pages. It details the Spiritual as a network of connections.

-On the general topic of "connections", a lot is going on on that front. That's how the Parshendi sing together, and how spren and seons bond to people.

 

Realmatics in general. Most people try to give the Spiritual realm something to do in there Realmatic theories. Myself, I claim it as the origin of motive force: desires, directives, physical laws, etc. Brandon said I was thinking along the right lines.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gloom]

I see things a little between the lines so to speak. I believe that humans are incapable of recognizing the spiritual except when it is used or seen in conjunction with the physical. I believe that what may, or may not, actually be happening in the spiritual is beyond human perception and even beyond to the perception of some Shards (assuming precognition is a function of the spiritual). I believe that the spiritual is separate from the cognitive realm, and the Cognitive realm is separate from the Spiritual realm. Both realms bleed over into the Physical realm.

 

What do I believe this means? You won't have any complex cognitive activity as we, humans, would recognize it existing in the Spiritual realm. It is the power of transition, of changing states. No one sees Stormlight until it attaches itself to the physical. No one sees the mists unless there is a physical component for the power to attach itself to, water vapor. I believe that Syl is primarily of the spiritual, and her bond with the physical (Kaladin) is what allows him and others to see her. I believe her link to Kaladin is what allows her access to the Cognitive realm

 

I believe the Cognitive realm functions in much the same way but with fewer limitations. Spren from the cognitive can't be seen unless they are bound to the the physical (a host). The difference is that the Cognitive is pure thought. It lacks the power to do anything. It just is. Because of this, it can host the Physical without resulting in it's destruction. Spren in the Cognitive lack the ability to do more than communicate (think) until they bond with a host. Once the bond is created, the host becomes a link to the spiritual. Through this link they can access the power of the Spiritual and empower their host.

 

Now, when both forces interact with the Physical, you can do some really neat things. Even when the physical is brought into the Cognitive, it can by extension, bring the Spiritual. Without the physical, these two forces cease to interact. This could also explain why the host body of a Shardholder is important. That body is the Physical component that allows a Shard to interact with both the Spiritual and the Cognitive. I believe that in the case of invested objects, that the Spiritual really is reduced to the role of fuel, but in a sentient being, it can be much more versatile.

 

I could be completely wrong, but this is how I have come to understand the rules of the Cosmere.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Gloom

[The Count]

This seems to run in line with apet theory I am working on...

 

Basically I am thinking that what we call 'magic' in the cosmere is a 'flow of investiture from one realm to another'...

 

Analogous to Force being a 'mass undergoing acceleration'...

 

I will post a proper theory on thisonce I work out the kinks

[Kurkistan]

@Gloom

 

I can't say I like that theory. Complete non-interaction between the Cognitive and Spiritual is a bit much.

 

I theorize that the two interact quite closely (so I'm incredibly biased), and I think that such a model is more sensible for the Cosmere. I don't see why we ought to abandon the power such interaction gives us in favor of a theory that makes everything hinge on Physical stuff.

 

Here's some analysis I have on why 1-way interactions can result in contrivance, though it's on a slightly different point.

 

--

 

Also, we have some firm hints from Brandon that the two floaty Realms interact directly:

 

Source: "Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm."

 

This suggests to me that the perception and the true ideal interact with one another directly (trickle down and bubble up, perhaps) rather than being mediated by the Physical.

 

--

 

On spren in particular: I think we've pretty much nailed spren down as Cognitive being that chill about in the Cognitive Realm, so it's odd of you to say that Syl needs a bond with Kaladin in order to get Cognitive access. Brandon said:

 

Q. Okay, so Syl, she’s been around for at least a few thousand years, right?
Brandon: Yes.

Q. How does she forget her memories? Is it in connection to humans that makes it so she remembers things?
Brandon: Yes.
Q. And she’s what, a Bonding Spren?
Brandon: You will find out. She [says she’s] an Honorspren, but you will find out.
Zas: Is that bond the Nahel bond?
Brandon: [Nervous grin on Brandon’s face] [laughter] There is a certain amount of... It is a symbiotic bond that is gained by Syl. And things gained by the person bonding. And the stronger presence in the physical realm, and the ability to think better in the physical realm is a part of that bond. She is mostly getting [something] of the physical realm. Without the bond, it is very hard for her to think in this world.
Q. Because she’s windspren.
Brandon: That’s part of it. That’s part of something else.

 

"[T]hink better in the physical realm" suggests that she can think fine and dandy elsewhere.

 

--

 

Then we have this answer from Brandon:

Odiums_Shard: So, firstly, is the Cognitive realm the only way to access the Spiritual Realm from the Physical Realm, and vice versa?

Brandon: No.

 

Now obviously the Cognitive realm never being a way to access the Spiritual would also justify a "No" response to this question, but you'd think Brandon might throw us a bone and answer the question in a bit more detail if that was the case, instead of being all Aes Sedai about it.

 

--

 

That's not all that points me towards the two being able to interact with one another, but it's a good start and I'm running a bit late.

 

@MadRand

 

I await your theory. (though, fair warning, I'll likely be mean to it ).

[Gloom]

I won't say that the quotes above support my theory, but I don't think they debunk the theory either.

 

Syl is getting her ability to think better in the physical realm through Kaladin and the bond. I'm just theorizing that she isn't getting her abilities directly from the physical. The more she is in the physical, the more access she has through Kaladin to the Cognitive. That is what the Cognitive is, the realm of thought.

 

I'm also not trying to say that their isn't thought in the spiritual. I'm trying to say that it is so foreign, so far beyond the physical that humans have no real means to interpret that data. Those beings that reside in the Spiritual may be able to communicate easily amongst themselves, but our ability to communicate with beings of the spiritual realm requires a connection to the physical and through that connection, a connection to the Cognitive.

 

Basically, I believe the Cognitive requires the Physical. It is a representation of thought in the Physical. The Spiritual is independent of the Physical. It would continue to exist regardless of what state the Physical is in. If all intelligent life ceased to exist, I believe the Cognitive realm would be reduced to the size of a pin point. It would still exist, but it would be vastly reduced in capacity. I believe the Spiritual would be effected by the annihilation of intelligent life to a much lesser degree. It may in fact expand as a result of the influx of spiritual energy.