Radiant Machines

[Wonko the Sane]

Warning: spoilers run amuck

From what I understand, the powers of the Knights Radiant are granted by forming a special link with a spren, referred to by Nohadon as the Nahel Bond, and are fueled by the energy known as Stormlight. One such power is that of Soulcasting.

However, we also know that Soulcasting can be accomplished by the use of certain fabrials. In addition, we know from Navani's Notebook that said fabrials are also formed using a spren and powered by Stormlight. Thus a possibility occurs to me: Could fabrials be nothing more than a method of mechanically simulating the Nahel Bond? And, if so, could we extrapolate the remaining Radiant powers by compiling the various known effects of fabrials?

Edited March 9, 2011 by Wonko the Sane

[CrazyRioter]

"Radiant Machines" sounds like an awesome name for a rock band.

Sorry, back on topic, I've wondered myself it it might be possible to create fabrials to duplicate other Radiant abilities, so I think you might be onto something.

[Zas678]

What you're talking about seems like an expansion of the whole concept of "technology" and "magic" in the Alcatraz books.

The only trouble is, I don't think that Soulcasters are fabrials. And none of the other Radiant powers we've seen seem to resemble any of the others.

EDIT- There you go Chaos. Now you're not the only one who's made a fool of himself

[KChan]

True Soulcasting, as I understand it, has nothing to do with the fabrials and everything to do with forming a bond with spren and utilizing the power of Stormlight. I agree with Zas in that it seems more likely that they're entirely separate things, even if they happen to share some similarities.

[Wonko the Sane]

Hardcover p.978:

"And the ardents," Shallan said. "Those who Soulcast? Do they actually use fabrials, or is it all a hoax?"

"No, Soulcasting fabrials are real. Quite real. So far as I know, everyone who does what I - What we - can do uses a fabrial to accomplish it."

Now, I realize that there are any number of potential failings involved with my theory. For example, Jasnah could be wrong about the fabrials. However, assuming that we take her words as correct, it is pretty much indisputable that there are two ways to Soulcast: The Radiant power, and the fabrial. My theory arises from an analysis of what we know about the mechanics of each. The Nahel Bond requires a spren and is fueled by Stormlight. That is fairly apparent. From the translation of the pages from Navani's Notebook, we learn that fabrials require a spren and are fueled by Stormlight. Based on this data, it is not too great a leap to speculate that these two might be the same thing; that is, that a fabrial is simply a device built in mimicry of the Nahel Bond. If this is the case, that means that each of the various powers of fabrials are either aspects or derivatives of the Radiant powers, and, in reverse, that each of the Radiant powers could be emulated by a fabrial. Following from this is the idea that we could compile all of the fabrials we have seen and, with consideration, make guesses at as-yet unknown Radiant powers.

I do, however, have one misgiving about my theory. I have no direct quote, but I have a vague memory that somewhere in the book it is stated that all existing Soulcasting fabrials are relics from the Heraldic Epochs, the secret of their creation having been lost to time. If this is the case, it is entirely possible that they do not function the same way as modern fabrials. Thus, Navani's Notebook may have no bearing over their mechanics. Still, even without mentioning Soulcasting, The parallels between fabrials and the Nahel Bond are intriguing.

[Puck]

Could fabrials be nothing more than a method of mechanically simulating the Nahel Bond?

This is what I got out of the novel as well. Granted, I have only read it the one time, but I definitely think that this is the relationship of fabrials to magic - it is the technological way of forcing the mystical. I'm totally on board with that mindset.

We even have evidence beyond the Soulcasters (although I do think they are the giveaway/key). Brandon has said

So what do I mean bytwenty or thirty magic systems in KINGS? Hard to say, as I don't want togive spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with acertain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort ofthing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these--though byanother way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten. (emphasis mine)

We've already seen Travel in the [insert name of WoK version of telegraphs]. So we've seen powers that people possess (Surgebinding), powers that people possess and fabrials mimic (Soulcasting), and powers that fabrials have (Travel).

And, if so, could we extrapolate the remaining Radiant powers by compiling the various known effects of fabrials?

This is difficult, as we don't really know of many other fabrials. However, I think it's theoretically a very worthwhile project: if we've seen a fabrial do x, then odds are there's a person who could do x (if merged with the right spren). If we've seen a person do y, then a fabrial that can do y (if combined with the right spren and gemstones) is theoretically possible.

Granted, while such a broad theory is likely to have exceptions, I feel like those exceptions would be pretty useful pointers to some underlying Cosmeric principles. Science: where the exceptions to your original hypothesis end up being the most interesting discoveries

[Wonko the Sane]

Fascinating... I had not heard Travel listed as a Radiant power. The spanreeds could very well be the manifestation of it; I had seen it as a sort of magic link, such that when a quill on one end is moved, the 'reciever' quill makes the same movements. I'm not sure that I would describe that as travel, though it very well could be. I do think that the Radiant use of this power was the teleportation described by Teft.

[KChan]

Let's not forget that true Soulcasting does not need fabrials - at least, not in the typical sense of the objects themselves. Jasnah carried a fake fabrial for ages and didn't even notice. The object itself doesn't do anything; it seems to only matter that the gems are infused, which ones they are, and perhaps where they're placed. This is different from the other fabrials we've seen that actively do something.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Brandon has said that the powers of the ten Orders of Radiants were based on ten natural concepts. Windrunning uses gravity and atmospheric pressure to do things. And, using this theory, the fabrials would seem to do the same thing. The spanreeds actually remind me of quantum entanglement with the way they exactly mirror each other. Does this mean that we could see something like that with Knight powers? I hope so, because quantum entanglement is freaking COOL.

[CrazyRioter]

That thing with the flamespren and how they freeze if you measure them also reminds me of quantum mechanics. I think there's something in quantum mechanics about measuring stuff and how things are only fixed at a subatomic level when you measure them?

Or something, physics is not my strong point, more into biology.

[leinton]

That thing with the flamespren and how they freeze if you measure them also reminds me of quantum mechanics. I think there's something in quantum mechanics about measuring stuff and how things are only fixed at a subatomic level when you measure them?

Or something, physics is not my strong point, more into biology.

I definitely noticed that as well, but I too am not a super physics dude. Anyone who is want to clarify what the two of us non physicists are trying, and possibly failing, to explain?

[Puck]

Also not a physicist, but here's what I remember:

The act of measuring something actually changes its nature. This is demonstrated in the famous Whatever-it's-called Experiment. You have a source of light (top) that's throwing photons at a screen (bottom). The light has to pass through two slits (middle) that make it easy to see the wave pattern at the bottom screen. Comme ca:

They tried measuring the photons both (a) at the bottom screen and (b ) at the middle screen (the one with the slits). What they found is that, if they measure the photons (a) at the bottom screen, they exhibited all the characteristics of a wave. No surprises there. The crazy part was that, if they measured it at (b ) the middle screen, when the photons reached the bottom screen, they exhibited all the characteristics of a particle, and none of a wave. This happened over and over: if you measure in the middle, the photons are particles at the end. If you measure at the end, they're waves.

Translation: the act of measuring - of observing - a photon changed its nature from then on (from a wave to a particle). That's kind of the conundrum that post-modern physics deals with: we can either know speed and direction (waves) of a photon or its location (particles), but not both, because the method of determining one excludes the method of determining the other. (For now. muhahahah!)

All you real physicists, feel free to laugh at my explanation and correct me. I won't take it personally

Edited March 12, 2011 by Puck

[Wonko the Sane]

Threadjackers.

2 thoughts have occured to me: firstly, if I am right, what role do the kinds of fabrial listed in the ars arcanum play? secondly, spanreeds have some sort of bond, and we already have a Radiant order that deals in bonds and oaths.

on a wishful note, my theory, and the existence of the Alerter fabrials, imply the existence of a Radiant order with a Spider Sense.

And of course they would have gravitation so they could walk on walls.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Wonko the Sane

[Zas678]

Peter Parker wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider- He's an alien knight from Roshar!!!

[CrazyRioter]

With mini-soulcaster fabrials to soulcast air into webbing!

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

on a wishful note, my theory, and the existence of the Alerter fabrials, imply the existence of a Radiant order with a Spider Sense.

And of course they would have gravitation so they could walk on walls.

Peter Parker wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider- He's an alien knight from Roshar!!!

With mini-soulcaster fabrials to soulcast air into webbing!

GREATEST.

CROSSOVER.

EVER.

You guys get 5 AWESOME POINTS each.

[Earendil]

Peter Parker wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider- He's an alien knight from Roshar!!!

This actually does a fairly good job of explaining Venom--Venom was an honorspren, but somehow twisted by Odium. Partner up for massive powers, with the teensy tiny downside that you start hating everyone.

[Asha'man Logain]

All you real physicists, feel free to laugh at my explanation and correct me. I won't take it personally

Yes that's basically it. If you do not measure the photons they behave like waves and even though the light emitter only shoots out one particle (photon) at a time it goes through both slits and interferes with itself like a wave. If you measure the photon it stays a particle and only goes through one slit.

Recently with better equiptment they did an experiment where they did the test, and if they went back and maesured it (after the test was complete) it was a particle, if they did not go back and check it it was a wave. They proved that in quantum cases the furture has a causual effect on the past. In other words, what you do in the future can effect what happened in the past. (perhaps like Dalinar telling Nahodan to write the Way of Kings?)

[happyman]

Ouch. Any discussion of the modern understanding of quantum mechanics is going to be wrong unless you are using extremely formal mathematics. Our natural languages just aren't up to the task of treating the concepts in it clearly. The words "particle" and "wave" are ill-defined at a fundamental level.

What we call particles are actually self-sustaining excitations of interacting quantized fields. What we call forces are also excitations of quantized fields, but ones that don't propagate indefinitely. This is why forces are associated with particles in pop-sci books; sometimes you can excite the force-creating fields in a way that is self-propagating, getting something that is also a "particle". No, that doesn't mean much to me, either, but it gets the right answers, which is why we use it. What it does mean in terms of this conversation is that saying that a photon acts like a particle or a wave is quite wrong; what it acts like is a photon, and it always acts like a photon. This behavior does include the (to our minds) odd combination of superposing it's phase on top of itself while propagating undetected (creating interference patterns and other rather odd effects), while interacting with other particles as though at a single point, but the photon itself will gladly do both at the same time.

Bizarre? Oh yeah. But what reality is apparently based on.

[speakswithdreams]

I know this is very late to the party but I was looking to see if anyone else had twigged the correlation between the Flamespren experiments and Quantum physics so im gonna put my 2 pence here even though noone will see it

The spanreeds (as well as some of the fabrials listed in the addendum at the back of part 2) do indeed seem to act like a form of Quantum entanglement. though in a far more Macro way rather than the changing of individual quantum states.

As for the flamespren we seem to be looking at a demonstration of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. When you have an experiment where Quantum propailities are involved (such as the size and shape of our little flamespren) then the act of measuring it collapses the proability waveform essentially removing probabilty from the equation (as it is now not probable but certain) thus changing the initial conditions and rendering the whole experiment invalid.

[Arcanist Lupus]

GREATEST.

CROSSOVER.

EVER.

You guys get 5 AWESOME POINTS each.

I agree with the awesome points, but this isn't the greatest crossover ever. That prize has already been given to Inquisitor Santa.

[happyman]

As someone who actually knows practical quantum mechanics, I hope the principle involved is more allegorical than an attempt to bring in "real" quantum mechanics. Efforts along those lines tend to end poorly in fiction, at least for those of us who actually know our way around the field.

[Arcanist Lupus]

As someone who actually knows practical quantum mechanics, I hope the principle involved is more allegorical than an attempt to bring in "real" quantum mechanics. Efforts along those lines tend to end poorly in fiction, at least for those of us who actually know our way around the field.

If Brandon is using quantum mechanics as a basis for his magic, and he's trying to be scientifically accurate, he'll probably write it so the story works, and then double check it to make sure he's not making any egregious errors. The story comes first.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Sir Read-a-Lot

[Captain Cosmere]

What we call particles are actually self-sustaining excitations of interacting quantized fields. What we call forces are also excitations of quantized fields, but ones that don't propagate indefinitely. This is why forces are associated with particles in pop-sci books; sometimes you can excite the force-creating fields in a way that is self-propagating, getting something that is also a "particle". No, that doesn't mean much to me, either, but it gets the right answers, which is why we use it. What it does mean in terms of this conversation is that saying that a photon acts like a particle or a wave is quite wrong; what it acts like is a photon, and it always acts like a photon. This behavior does include the (to our minds) odd combination of superposing it's phase on top of itself while propagating undetected (creating interference patterns and other rather odd effects), while interacting with other particles as though at a single point, but the photon itself will gladly do both at the same time.

You know I don't speak Spanish. In English, please.

Quantum Mechanics = The Devil.

[happyman]

@Sir Read-a-lot, sure the story (and hence the magic) come first. I'm just saying that I hope he did enough research to know what he doesn't know, so that the relationship with Quantum Mechanics is analogical, instead of trying for anything "realistic." No offense, but most attempts I've seen wheel they try to use Quantum Mechanics in fiction end very poorly.

@Captain cosmere: That's really not fair. What he's describing is fairly complicated. It takes time to understand, no matter what you do. Once again, though, I must say that the common idea of photons is wildly misleading. In this case, it is far better to think simply in terms of waves. The answer you get will make a lot more sense.