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Are there other end-negative Investitures?


TheOneKEA

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In this post Brandon said that Hemalurgy is an oddity in the Cosmere. He has also said that Hemalurgy is an example of end-negative Investiture.

This makes me wonder the following: Is Hemalurgy an oddity because it is end-negative, or is it an oddit because it is the only end-negative Investiture in the Cosmere? If it's not the latter, where else could we see end-negative Investiture, and have we already seen it and not recognized it?

EDIT: I just remembered that we have seen the Dakhor magic on Sel, and it looks end-negative because it involves lots of killing for a smaller return that the sum of the inputs, so it might be the only other end-negative Investiture that we've seen so far.

Edited by TheOneKEA
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I believe it is an oddity for more reasons than that. For one, it's the only effective way we've seen to alter someone's sDNA. Forging might be able to do that too, but only if the stamp stays close to MaiPon or whatever the place is called. Also, forging is limited to only changing sDNA in a way that it's feasable to rewrite someone's history enough to do so.

 

As for other end negative magics...I can't really think of anything that could qualify.

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As I understand them:

End positive: results in increased energy/mass in physical realm. Energy comes from Shard to.do Work.

End neutral: results in no change. Feruchemy...Conservation of Energy...Energy to do Work is stored for later use.

End negative: results in less energy/mass in Physical realm. Energy to do work is taken from Physical Realm and not returned to Physical realm via Work done. Dakhor transportation takes a life and a body out of the Physical Realm completely to transport others somewhere else.

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As I understand them:

End positive: results in increased energy/mass in physical realm. Energy comes from Shard to.do Work.

End neutral: results in no change. Feruchemy...Conservation of Energy...Energy to do Work is stored for later use.

End negative: results in less energy/mass in Physical realm. Energy to do work is taken from Physical Realm and not returned to Physical realm via Work done. Dakhor transportation takes a life and a body out of the Physical Realm completely to transport others somewhere else.

 

That's not how the metrics are measured.  Otherwise emotional allomancy would be end-negative (mess with emotions for no lasting increase in energy, destroy a vial full of brass)/.

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Assuming the brass is metabolized by the body and returned to the ecosystem (or whatever the never explained process is of the metal leaving the body), no brass is lost. Energy is acquired from outside the Physical realm by the action of "burning" the brass and used to do the Work of changing the emotions of others. End positive.

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Assuming the brass is metabolized by the body and returned to the ecosystem (or whatever the never explained process is of the metal leaving the body),

It's permanently destroyed.  In the (extremely) long term, it's possible for allomancy to entirely deplete Scandriel's supply of  metals.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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  • 4 weeks later...

It's permanently destroyed.  In the (extremely) long term, it's possible for allomancy to entirely deplete Scandriel's supply of  metals.

But is the mass of the metal actually annihilated, or does it merely undergo some sort of reaction, at the end of which you are left with a completely different material? Either version could account for the loss of metals.

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It's permanently destroyed.  In the (extremely) long term, it's possible for allomancy to entirely deplete Scandriel's supply of  metals.

 

This, IIRC, is not accurate, Phantom.  The Phoenix Comicon report shows that metals change form when burned and are eventually returned to Scadrial in a similiar manner that atium is, though likely a different mechanism (i.e., not geodes).  It is conceivable to substantially burn it all in the short-term.  But eventually, it seems that it comes back.

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That's not how the metrics are measured.  Otherwise emotional allomancy would be end-negative (mess with emotions for no lasting increase in energy, destroy a vial full of brass)/.

Though I don't believe phantoms statement, that metals are annihilated, is correct, I do agree that Leuthie's metric measurement system is flawed. I'll throw out my own theory...maybe the metric isn't measured in relation to the physical realm but to the magic wielder themselves, as follows:

 

End positive: Magical Energy/attribute is added to magicker.

End neutral: Magical Energy/attribute is set aside from magicker's personal energy for later use.

end negative: Magical Energy/attributes is removed from magicker.

 

edit:

on further thought this doesn't seem to hold water. When looking at awakening it appears to be neutral at first until you consider the endowment and receipt of new breaths. It would be classified as all three.

 

edit 2: 

The more I think about it, the more I can't come to any conclusion on how this should be measured. I cannot think of a measure that is consistent with all magic systems.

Edited by Khmauv
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I usually go by the total change of Shard-separated Investiture integrated over ability duration ( not the best formulation , but close enough)

For Allomancy, this is positive, ability is powered by Shard. For Feruchemy, the amount is preserved, though usage rate can vary. In Hemalurgy, total Investiture in system decreases. Awakening is end- neutral in this regard, and Nightblood seemingly negative, unless he gets stronger by eating those breaths or something. Surgebinding would be positive.

I am not sure, mind, just IMO for the moment.

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I guess my explanation was poor.

End-positive: Energy is gained and used. Most magic systems take Energy from Shards and use it to Create. Once used, the Energy is returned to the Shard. The time it takes for that Energy to return is irrelevant. Even if it take a thousand years for a Burned metal to return, it isn't lost.

End-neutral: Energy is simply transferred, temporally (as with Feruchemy, store now use later) or other (assuming there is some other end-neutral system with purpose of moving Energy around without loss).

End-negative: Energy is lost and not used. Hemalurgy takes from one and gives to another. In the transfer, the receiver gets less than was taken. What was lost is never retrieved without use of a different system.

Biochromatic Breath is interesting. Ultimately, its end-positive. Energy is never lost.

Breath isn't Energy, nor is it lost (normally). Breath is a piece of the Soul (Cognitive and/or Spiritual) that can be transferred to others. That transfer can be considered end-neutral since nothing is gaoned or lost, just moved from one place to another. This can also remove any end-negative discussion about Nightblood, since he's destoying souls, not removing Energy. The perks one gains from having more Breaths all deal with awareness. They don't require Energy; better described as having more Soul.

The closest thing to Energy in the process is color. To Awaken, color must be drained from nearby. No color to drain, not Awakey. This draining was seen, but its nature was never explained in Warbreaker. I would speculate that lost color gets input in some other form, elsewhere. WoB has mentioned fields of flowers from which lots of dyes are made...

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I would speculate that lost color gets input in some other form, elsewhere. WoB has mentioned fields of flowers from which lots of dyes are made...

This reminds me of something I've wondered about before. Did Brandon ever say what the focus of Investiture was on Nalthis? Is it Breath, or is it color/pigmentation? Or both? (Edit: It's neither. The Investiture focuses on the Command, idiot skaa!)

 

 

Biochromatic Breath is interesting. Ultimately, its end-positive.

 

I'd like to think of giving and taking BioChromatic Breath as one kind of Investiture transaction, while the actual Awakening via giving of Command as another. It's two systems in one, is what I'm saying. I think Awakening is definitely end-positive, but I'm not quite sure about BioChromatic Breath. I think it's more of an end-neutral system.

 

Of course, if we consider BioChroma and Awakening as a single system, then yes, it's ultimately end-positive.

I think any system that uses fuel that is separate from sentient creatures like humans and spren can be considered end-positive. That means Awakening (fuel: color), Allomancy (fuel: metal, which is also incidentally the focus of Investiture), AonDor (fuel: the Dor), and Surgebinding (fuel: Stormlight) are all end-positive. Under this definition, Szeth's Surgebinding is still end-positive even though he wastes a lot of Stormlight when they leak away unused. Aluminum Allomancy is also end-positive under this definition even though it destroys the metal reserves of an Allomancer.

Distinguishing between end-neutral and end-negative is a lot trickier since they both involve something being taken from a person instead of from nature. Things like Feruchemy and the Honorspren-Surgebinder bond are easy to mark as end-neutral because all the persons involved in the Investiture transaction can gain something just as they lose something. BioChromatic Breath (especially Divine Breath) seems a bit more debatable. In one definition, becoming a Drab (or dying, as in the case of the Returned) by giving away your last Breath to someone seems like an end-negative thing. In another definition, the amount of Breaths in the system are still balanced, so it's end-neutral. I think I'm going to go with the "BioChroma is end-neutral" camp, simply because BioChroma doesn't lower the amount of Investiture the same way Hemalurgy does, even if it takes away something from a person.

Which leads us to the Dakhor Teleportation of Death. Killing people to gain power is morally bad, but that's not really the measure of whether the magic system is end-negative or not. If the amount of Investiture inside the victims upon before death is the same as the amount of Investiture required by the spell, then it's end-neutral. If part of the victims' Investiture is wasted (like in Hemalurgy), then it's end-negative.

Edited by skaa
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It's actually the Commands.

 

Which, given that it is possible to use non-verbal commands, suggests that it is the cognitive component which is most important.  In other words, the focus is the knowledge of what the object should do.  There is already evidence for this in Warbreaker.

As for Awakening, I really, really want to go with it being end-neutral, because the defining feature of Breath on Nalthis is how it is transferred.  This is the interesting limitation on the magic system, just like the need to store attributes is the interesting limit on Feruchemy.  It may make physical things more efficient, but I don't know if it actually increases the amount of investiture in the world.  I would say no.  (This is not the same as, say, increasing the amount of energy in the world, which it seems to do.)

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The harmonics and the hues. I believe sound and color combined is the Focus on Nalthis. The Command itself is a sound, and acts as a focus for the Intent the awakener endows the object. Pigment then gets drained similar to how metal is vaporized on Scadrial. Could the sound waves and color interact to create Biochromatic aura?

As for end-energy, I would support an end-positive mechanism for awakening. Awakened objects move, and the energy has to come from somewhere.

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Transferring Breath isn't Awakening. It's simply a part of the nature of Breath. You could pull it out and call it its own magic system. That system would be end-neutral, but its also very limited. Having Breath gives you more abilities, all related to awareness and, if I'm remembering right, all passive...but that's it. Anything you do actively with Breath requires Commands and Color. Energy is pulled from outside, used, and returned to the system.

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Which, given that it is possible to use non-verbal commands, suggests that it is the cognitive component which is most important.  In other words, the focus is the knowledge of what the object should do.  There is already evidence for this in Warbreaker.

 

The harmonics and the hues. I believe sound and color combined is the Focus on Nalthis. The Command itself is a sound, and acts as a focus for the Intent the awakener endows the object. Pigment then gets drained similar to how metal is vaporized on Scadrial. Could the sound waves and color interact to create Biochromatic aura?

 

The focus is not the sound, as happyman infers Commands are a Cognitive focus.

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Can someone point me to where the info that non-verbal Commands are possible comes from? Vasher stipulates in the text that Commands must be spoken clearly, and in the Awakener's native tongue, but I accept that in-world info on Awakening is very incomplete.

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I don't really understand why getting enough breaths allows you to break some of the rules of Awakening. It is true that the Godking can Awaken without sound, but he can also use grey objects to Awaken and create prismatics from white objects. Something odd is happening there, and I'm assuming it has to do with color-control. We can definitely agree that sound is not a required focus, but I still think it helps shape the color into Biochroma which can be managed without sound if you have sufficient color-control.

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I don't really understand why getting enough breaths allows you to break some of the rules of Awakening. It is true that the Godking can Awaken without sound, but he can also use grey objects to Awaken and create prismatics from white objects.

 

This kind of reminds me of Harry Potter magic. In that magic system, non-verbal spells are a thing, but they are considered advanced and requires a high level of skill. The better you could visualize the spell in your head, the less you need to rely on the verbal aspect of it.

 

I think a similar thing is happening in Awakening. The focus of Investiture is the Cognitive aspect of the Command, but most people's minds are not capable of grokking Commands without speaking the words. Verbalizing helps them see their Commands more clearly in their heads.

 

Getting more Breaths heightens awareness, right? I think the Tenth Heightening (~50,000 Breaths) allows the Awakener to be so aware of his own thought processes that he instinctively forms Commands at will without having to say anything at all.

Edited by skaa
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