Newan

Orem Library Signing on December 6

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I placed this all in the post, but to answer your questions:

 

 

 

The Stormfather IS a cognitive shadow.  As to Cognitive Shadow as Kelsier.... I'm not sure. It's possible that Kelsier just kindof held it, but the mists were acting by themselves, because Kelsier didn't have full control. 

 

Yes, when I said the mistress, I meant Baxil's mistress. He didn't say it directly- the actual question was 

Have we seen all of the Heralds?

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned all of them, and you've seen a number of them, such as Shalash running around (I'm pretty sure he mentioned something that made it clear that it was the Mistress, or the person cutting off the faces)

 

On Odium being able to affect the planets is about , the three important planets- Roshar, Braize, and Ashyn.

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Nice coming back gift, Zas. :)

 

Some cool stuff; a fair amount that's more confirmatory than revelatory. The "walking for space travel" theory has been around for awhile, Baxil's mistress is nice to nail down with WoB...

 

The question about Shai seems to nail down that Forging likely can't mimic things that actually require their own Investiture (so no creating Awakened objects of the like) all on its own.

 

@Dent

 

"The Mistress" is also known as "Baxil's Mistress", and is what some call the woman who smashes up/defaces art in the interlude in WoK.

 

So far as the mass exodus goes, that seems to be pointing to the Iriali and their Long Path (not sure if I'm remembering nouns/spellings right).

Brandon said that the mass exodus was only talked about in WoR, not WoK. I'm thinking it's the Parshendi who fled Odium and settled on Roshar.

 

Thanks for telling me who the Mistress was, though!

Edited by Arthur Dent
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Okay... so... um... wow.  I guess I don't have to finish me re-write for one of my theories (I think... Cognitive shadows are confusing now).

 

But anywasy some really fascinating stuff here, like the Expanse of Vapors being Sca-- WAIT A MINUTE!?!?!?!? ELANTRIS 10TH ANNIVERSARY EDITION?!?!?!

 

*Weiry runs away screaming like a maniac and probably runs into a tree or something*

 

Edit: Insert Kyoshi Island Foaming Mouth Guy gif:

avatar-foamingmouthguy.gif

Edited by Ookla the Ensconced
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Oh, delicious, delicious information! We need those things at least once every month or two... 

 

Most of the best bits are probably the confirmations of a few popular theories:

  • Worldhopping (or at least one way to worldhop) is done by using the "empty space has no distance in Shadesmar" loophole of the Cognitive Realm. I feel this was heavily hinted at before, but not explicitly stated. It's still not that infamous "Elantris hint" but I'll take it.
  • The Stormfather is a cognitive shadow (of Honor). 
  • Either the Parshendi or the Iriali are not originally from Roshar. 

The things about Odium's influence are interesting. The part about the voidspren having a "hole" in them similar to the kandra's or koloss' could potentially lead to some interesting places in the future - if Odium can fully take control over his Splinters, and the Stormfather (as Honor's cognitive shadow) can kind of influence Honor's, then Cultivation should also be able to take over her own spren, unless she is somehow crippled as a Shard; moreover, this creates a precedent for Shards being able to directly control the actions of Splinters or maybe even control the flow of their Investiture. Which doesn't mean much for Sel, but I am now curious whether Endowment could - if he wanted to - nudge the Returned this way or that.

 

Re: Elantris 10Y Anniversary, we've known about this for years. You have failed the community, now please trade your soul for more Q&A.

Edited by Argent
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As a point of fact I did know that Brandon had mentioned the /possibility/ of doing one, as in he wanted to do one, but he said that all quite some time ago. (and it was almost always mentioned in conjunction with the release of Elantris 2, which we know isn't happening... probably)  I had started to lose hope that it was going to happen.

 

This is the first I've heard that it is /actually/ happening.  I had had my hopes when we found out he had Isaac do a Sel world map but there was nothing confirmed.

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How frequently does Brandon make it to the East Coast for signings/talks? I would love to go to a signing of his, but haven't been able to because I only began reading his books this summer! 

 

Also, thanks for all the great information everyone! I love the worldhopping and Shadesmar stuff! And a 10Y anniversary Elantris edition! Woot! (x16!)

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Something I find interesting that no one has mentioned yet is that both Mraize and Iyatil are worldhoppers. And given that Iyatil is not originally from Roshar, if she's a worldhopper she has access to a not-Stormlight-based magic system and is proficient enough to worldhop. This then raises the question of Mraize's origin. Does he have non-Roshar magic in his sDNA too? If so, why call Iyatil his babsk (a Roshar specific word)? Is babsk the closest Roshar word to the definition of their relationship? Wasn't him using the term babsk what led us to believe he was from Thaylenah?

 

And why did nobody ask if Jasnah visited another planet while being in Shadesmar?!!?

 

Also I'm happy to have confirmation that the Shadesmar version of space is nothingness. 

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Wasn't him using the term babsk what led us to believe he was from Thaylenah?

 

Actually it was Peter saying "I thought it was obvious in the text that he was from Thaylenah" that made us think he was from Thaylenah.  I think most of us, at least I did, thought he was an off-worlder before that.

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Actually it was Peter saying "I thought it was obvious in the text that he was from Thaylenah" that made us think he was from Thaylenah.  I think most of us, at least I did, thought he was an off-worlder before that.

 

See, when I read that post from Peter I got more of a sarcastic or joking vibe, given the discussion prior to his post. If true, then Mraize has access to Rosharan magic (one of the many), or worldhoppers can taxi others with them (answering yet another question I have).

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Questions about Koloss blooded are answered in the Mistborn Adventure Game Alloy of Law Allomancer Jak story.

 

And I wasn't being sarcastic or joking when I said I thought it was obvious from the text that Mraize was a Thaylen from Thaylenah.

Edited by PeterAhlstrom
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Something I find interesting that no one has mentioned yet is that both Mraize and Iyatil are worldhoppers. And given that Iyatil is not originally from Roshar, if she's a worldhopper she has access to a not-Stormlight-based magic system and is proficient enough to worldhop.

 

You don't need to use a magic system to worldhop:

mycoltbug

Is there a magic system that best allows people to world hop between worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it isn't needed. Some do help more with understanding how to traverse the Cognitive Realm.

(source)

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You don't need to use a magic system to worldhop:

 

That's not what that WoB says... It asks "Is there a magic system that is *best* for worldhopping" which there is, but it's not the only one that can be used.  Granted I do believe that you can worldhop with out a system but that WoB doesn't have an impact on the matter.

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Questions about Koloss blooded are answered in the Mistborn Adventure Game Alloy of Law Allomancer Jak story.

 

And I wasn't being sarcastic or joking when I said I thought it was obvious from the text that Mraize was a Thaylen from Thaylenah.

 

Awesome! Thanks!

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That's not what that WoB says... It asks "Is there a magic system that is *best* for worldhopping" which there is, but it's not the only one that can be used.  Granted I do believe that you can worldhop with out a system but that WoB doesn't have an impact on the matter.

 

Now, I am going on very little sleep here, so it's entirely possible I'm insane, but the question itself assumes multiple magic systems can be used to worldhop. Brandon replies "it isn't needed" - which is an odd response if "it" is referring to the best magic system for worldhopping when the question itself already assumes there's multiple magic systems that let you worldhop. Look at the next sentence - he says "Some do help more". I take this to mean the "it" in the previous sentence was meant to refer to magic systems in general, not the singular best system for worldhopping.

 

The two interpretations I see here are:

1)

mycoltbug

Is there a magic system that best allows people to world hop between worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but [the best magic system for worldhopping] isn't needed. Some [magics] do help more with understanding how to traverse the Cognitive Realm.

 

2)

mycoltbug

Is there a magic system that best allows people to world hop between worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but [magic] isn't needed. Some [magics] do help more with understanding how to traverse the Cognitive Realm.

 

#1 just doesn't seem to make sense to me. The second sentence has a reference to something in the first sentence via the "some", so it seems like my #2 is what Brandon meant. (Unless he misread the question?)

 

Also, the second sentence basically confirms that you can traverse the Cognitive Realm without using any particular magic systems. That kinda fits in with Shallan's experiences. She doesn't seem to need to breathe in Stormlight to glance about in the Cognitive. Though I'm still sort of confused about how all that works... same with Cognitive Shadows.

 

I've spent more time thinking on Cognitive Shadows, and I'm still confused. All my objections to the Stormfather being a Cognitive Shadow stand - he refers to himself as a spren (talking about how "his kind" were murdered by Kaladin's kind), he's nothing like how Tanavast is, he apparently watched himself die (???), he refers to the Almighty as if it were someone else (the Almighty forced me to give you these memories!). This is all at odds with how Brandon described Cognitive Shadows as those who "refuse to go to the light", so to speak. Are they actual souls or... what? The Stormfather specifically says he is not Tanavast's soul.

 

The very word - Cognitive Shadow - seems to imply they're not souls, but then there's the WoBs on Kelsier not going to the light and urgh.

Edited by Ookla the Infinite
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Here's the three WoBs I can find that relate to the issue of worldhopping without a magic system:

 

source

KCHAN
Can anyone with access to Shadesmar learn how to worldhop?
BRANDON SANDERSON
In theory. Getting to Sel is really tough...

 

source

KHYRINDOR
Can someone accidentally Worldhop?
BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Yes.

(He thought for a moment first and then said that. I think its more complicated.)

 

source

LEIFTINSPACE
I've picked up in bits in pieces that it's possible, for some people at least, to use the Shardpools to worldhop...
BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

LEIFTINSPACE

Can non-invested people do that, or do you have to have some form of investiture?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Hesitantly] Every individual is invested to some extent...

LEIFTINSPACE

Do you have to have any special investiture above and beyond the normal spark of life?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I'm gonna go ahead and RAFO that.

 

I suppose it is an easy argument to make that non-magic users could worldhop, especially with the use of shardpools, but every worldhopper we've recognized so far, other than Mraize and Iyatil, has access to a magic system. I feel the lack of evidence in and of itself condemns the argument (for now, anyways).

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That Taravangian thing...

 

I got the impression from his Interlude that he was incorrectly interpreting his boon and curse.
 

“Capacity,” he whispered, turning a page. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.”

My interpretation: Intelligence being the capacity to stop what was coming, compassion being the capacity to save humankind.  Curse is that they can only exist in inversely proportional amounts at the same time.

 

Aluminum sheath for Nightblood... that would be interesting, but maybe an alloy or something?  Since Aluminum as a metal doesn't seem quite strong enough for all the hitting and stabbing that is done with that sheath.  Or the sheath might have multiple layers to it, one of them being aluminum.
 

Q: Have we seen mass exodus’s before?

 

A: Yes, there are some in the cosmere. There’s a mass exodus that is mentioned in one of the interludes in Way of Kings.

Could it be that the Scouring of Aimia isn't simply the killing of the Aimians, but rather most of them deciding to leave Roshar entirely?  Reminds me of the person after me in line's question about the Aimians back at the Dayton signing.  Something about them being refugees.

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I thought that his sheath might be aluminum because it blocks his Investiture-sucking.

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Could it be that the Scouring of Aimia isn't simply the killing of the Aimians, but rather most of them deciding to leave Roshar entirely?  Reminds me of the person after me in line's question about the Aimians back at the Dayton signing.  Something about them being refugees.

Ooh, what interlude was that?

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Whooooooooooaaaaaaa. I can't believe Brandon revealed so much!!!!!

The Stormfather's existence as a cognitive shadow makes so much sense. When he told Dalinar that he would not be a simple sword, he meant it! Maybe the Stormfather isn't actually capable of becoming a Blade, because he's not actually a spren!

Also, it makes it even easier to think about why the Cognitive Realm is so dangerous on Sel. There may be TWO cognitive shadows wandering around attacking everything They can reach...

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I suppose it is an easy argument to make that non-magic users could worldhop, especially with the use of shardpools, but every worldhopper we've recognized so far, other than Mraize and Iyatil, has access to a magic system. I feel the lack of evidence in and of itself condemns the argument (for now, anyways).

 

The kandra worldhopper doesn't have access to a magic system (and can't, really, unless you're proposing Harmony spiked a few people to help out his kandra followers, or is acting as a universal taxi service or something), nor are there any signs that Mraize and Iyatil do, nor are there any signs that Nazh does (as he's from Threnody which has no Shard and sort of can't have started with any magic). Hoid himself only had access to Lightweaving at the start (which, uh, doesn't exactly allow one into the Cognitive), but managed to "jumpstart" himself into being able to go anywhere somehow. Demoux only has/had access to atium, and we know by WoB that atium is not related to worldhopping on Scadrial. I'll also note our worldhopping Terriswoman only theoretically has access to Feruchemy, and we've not seen a metal that would let a Feruchemist enter the Cognitive (though I'd not be surprised if a God-Alloy metal stored your Physical presence and shunted you off into the Cognitive... but why would she have atium or lerasium?).

 

I find it to be a difficult argument to make that worldhopping requires a magic system, and after a nice long sleep and re-reading the WoB, I still think my arguments make sense for the WoB.

 

Plus, there's always the Shardpool argument. Rock can swim in the emerald pools no problem. I imagine if he had the intent to do so, he could use that Shardpool to end up in the Cognitive. Doesn't explain Demoux or Nazh, though...

Edited by Ookla the Infinite
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The kandra worldhopper doesn't have access to a magic system (and can't, really, unless you're proposing Harmony spiked a few people to help out his kandra followers, or is acting as a universal taxi service or something), nor are there any signs that Mraize and Iyatil do, nor are there any signs that Nazh does (as he's from Threnody which has no Shard and sort of can't have started with any magic). Hoid himself only had access to Lightweaving at the start (which, uh, doesn't exactly allow one into the Cognitive), but managed to "jumpstart" himself into being able to go anywhere somehow. Demoux only has/had access to atium, and we know by WoB that atium is not related to worldhopping on Scadrial. I'll also note our worldhopping Terriswoman only theoretically has access to Feruchemy, and we've not seen a metal that would let a Feruchemist enter the Cognitive (though I'd not be surprised if a God-Alloy metal stored your Physical presence and shunted you off into the Cognitive... but why would she have atium or lerasium?).

 

I find it to be a difficult argument to make that worldhopping requires a magic system, and after a nice long sleep and re-reading the WoB, I still think my arguments make sense for the WoB.

 

Plus, there's always the Shardpool argument. Rock can swim in the emerald pools no problem. I imagine if he had the intent to do so, he could use that Shardpool to end up in the Cognitive. Doesn't explain Demoux or Nazh, though...

 

The only problems I have with your examples, and this is just a personal point of view given lack of information, is that most, if not all of them, have connections to a magic system. The kandra, for example, might not be able to use magic, but was created through Hemalurgy. Moreover, we only know of four Blessings, which make use of tin, iron, copper, and zinc. We know, though, that there are 12 other important metals on Scadrial, plus alloys of the god metals. Who is to say there is not a Blessing of Travel that is granted by one of the other metals?

 

source

INSURRECTIONISTFUNGUS

Are there more kinds of kandra blessings than just the four we've seen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Potentially, yes.

 

If that's not enough to convince you that it is possible, this WoB does show that kandra can become Allomancers without the use of Hemalurgy:

 

source

QUESTION  

If a Kandra eats a bead of Larasium, can he burn it? Alternatively can he gain allomancy via hemalurgy?

BRANDON SANDERSON  

Yes on both counts.

 

So I simply cannot rule out the fact that the kandra worldhopper is utilizing some relationship with a magic system to hop.

 

Nazh is an interesting point. As you note, he being from Threnody means he has no direct access to magic (I have actually not read SfSitFoH, so I'm merely taking your word for the lack of magic). But, as we know, there are other ways to gain access. For instance, though very unlikely, Hoid might have given Nazh the Lerasium bead. I am again falling back on the simple lack of knowledge we have, for until we know Nazh better, who knows what capabilities he has.

 

You used Hoid's original lack of Shadesmar acces as part of your argument, but I never stated one needed access to Shadesmar to worldhop. In fact, it is entirely possible you don't, because I don't see a means of Awakening or Biochromatic Breath enabling one to enter Shadesmar, yet we know Vasher hopped. My personal opinion is that Shadesmar is used for all worldhopping, but each magic system has a different mechanism or means of getting there.

 

source

QUESTION

You've said that Shadesmar is the cognitive relam connecting all the worlds in the cosmere, and that Hoid is very good at using Shadesmar. Should we take this to mean Shadesmar is how he travels between the worlds? Do the other worlds have different ways of accessing Shadesmar than the way(s) the people of Roshar use?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

Emphasis Added

 

To round out my post, though, let me continue working through your examples with Demoux. For the sake of completeness, below is the WoB that Moogle mentions, stating Atium is not related to Scadrian worldhopping.

 

source

CHRIS KING (MIYABI)

Is burning atium related to Scadrian worldhopping?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a good question, the answer is no.

 

This WoB is very interesting, for it seems to rule out Demoux being able to hop if magic is necessary. I want to start with a bit of baseless conjecture though. Perhaps the burning of Atium itself is not what allows worldhopping, but rather the mere act of burning any metal. Such a scenario would allow Brandon to answer no, but not be lying. Perhaps it is the mere act of using Allomancy, given the right conditions/environment, that allows one to worldhop. Enough with baseless conjecture though, let's have some slightly less-baseless conjecture:

 

source

WETLANDERNW

In whose voice is the "Ars Arcanum" written? Hoid's?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I've avoided answering that question. It's either Hoid or a member of the 17th Shard. That's as much answer as I'm giving anyone right now.

Emphasis Added

 

source

QUESTION

The Ars Arcanum, is there an in-cosmere author of that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it is in cosmere

QUESTION

Because it seems like it'd be written by someone like Hoid.

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's not him. I don't know if I've released who it is; but it's probably not who people are thinking but it is in-world.

Emphasis Added

 

source

QUESTION

Is Thinker from the Purelake scene Demoux [from the Mistborn Trilogy]?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Demoux is indeed in that scene.

And for those who didn’t hear, about the other one, there is a scene in the Way of Kings. People have been trying to figure out… there are some members of… there are some people there that I have hinted are from other books, and they have now figured out two of the three. I don’t think you’ve figured out the third one, and you won’t because…

MI'CHELLE

Has their book been written yet? Has their book been published?

BRANDON SANDERSON

. Their book has not been published yet. I won’t say if it’s been written yet. Is anyone confused at what’s going on there? There is a connection between the books.

FOOTNOTE

What Brandon nearly says about "members" seems to imply that those in the Purelake scene are indeed members of the Seventeenth Shard.

 

I am pretty sure we have all come to agree that the three folks in the interlude described above are Seventeenth Shard members. We also know that the Ars Arcanums (Arcani?) are written by a Seventeenth Shard member, as we know it isn't Hoid. Seeing as Demoux is a member of Seventeenth Shard, it is possible that his worldhopping has to do with the organization (as AonDor also does not allow direct access to Shadesmar as we currently know it). The point, though, is that all the members we know of have access to a magic system (with the possible exception of Nazh, if he is the Ars Arcanum writer). Because of this, I can't see Demoux as definitive proof of someone not using their access to a magic system to worldhop.

 

As for the pesky Terriswoman, you noted she could have access to Feruchemy, thereby negating her as proof of worldhopping without access to a magic system for now. We do know that full Feruchemists exist after Sazed's ascension, so it is very possible she is one:

 

source

WETLANDERNW

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one feruchemical power, when all previous feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? (from travyl) Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn? (my addition)

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemistry genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law. (His response to this was really fun—he found it a very perceptive question, and enjoyed talking about it. I wish I'd had my recorder handy so I could give you the full transcript instead of the boiled-down version.)

 

But even if she is not a full Feruchemist, or even a Ferring, she can still make use of a Feruchemically charged metal, providing her pseudo-access:

 

source

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

There is a way to get a non-powered person to access a metalmind. (Presumably now, with the Mistborn RPG, we know that this may have something to do with Identity.)

 

So I know this post has been long, and all I've really said is "none of your examples are valid," mostly because of lack of information. But until said information is given to us through WoB or his books, I have yet to see any reason to think one would not need access to a magic system.

 

As for Rock and the Shardpool argument, I currently hold the opinion that the pools are necessary to worldhop if one cannot directly enter Shadesmar, but that any magic system holds the key to opening the "portal" within the pools. The shardpool in Elantris is the only first-hand example we have of anyone accessing the Cognitive or Spiritual Realms through the pools, and the only people who did were Elantrians. Granted, they were Reod Elantrians, by they were Elantrians nonetheless. Unless Rock has access to a magic system (which is very possible given the large amount of them on Roshar), I do not think he could worldhop.

 

Tl:dr

I do not think any of Moogle's examples are valid, for various reasons. My personal opinion is that Shardpools are used to access Shadesmar to worldhop, if the worldhopper does not have direct access through Soulcasting or the like, and the only way to access the "portal" within the pools is to use a magic system in some way. More details and information are needed to further refine or disprove it.

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You get an upvote for me for grabbing all the WoBs. It's always nice when people do that.
 

The only problems I have with your examples, and this is just a personal point of view given lack of information, is that most, if not all of them, have connections to a magic system. The kandra, for example, might not be able to use magic, but was created through Hemalurgy. Moreover, we only know of four Blessings, which make use of tin, iron, copper, and zinc. We know, though, that there are 12 other important metals on Scadrial, plus alloys of the god metals. Who is to say there is not a Blessing of Travel that is granted by one of the other metals?

 
Sazed is not the sort to make new spikes. He's re-using ones from inquisitors, but I know of nothing that says he's willing to make new ones. I don't think a Blessing of Travel has been made, though it's an interesting idea. It's possible Sazed directly altered the kandra to have new abilities, much like Rashek originally altered humans into kandra, but... at that point you can propose pretty much any theory and just say "Sazed did it!".
 
As to lerasium, sure we can't rule it out, I guess... but that's a far cry from it being likely.
 

Nazh is an interesting point. As you note, he being from Threnody means he has no direct access to magic (I have actually not read SfSitFoH, so I'm merely taking your word for the lack of magic). But, as we know, there are other ways to gain access. For instance, though very unlikely, Hoid might have given Nazh the Lerasium bead. I am again falling back on the simple lack of knowledge we have, for until we know Nazh better, who knows what capabilities he has.

 
Nazh is working for (presumably) the AA author, and thus the 17th Shard. Hoid is opposed to the 17th Shard, so I find this possibility unlikely. Nazh was capable of retrieving Shallan's things from the bottom of the ocean, an action which implies a deep knowledge of Shadesmar. I consider him strong evidence for the idea that you don't need magic to enter/leave the Cognitive. Saying he managed to get access to a magic system after leaving Threnody is very unlikely, even if it's theoretically possible.
 

To round out my post, though, let me continue working through your examples with Demoux. For the sake of completeness, below is the WoB that Moogle mentions, stating Atium is not related to Scadrian worldhopping.
 
source



CHRIS KING (MIYABI)
Is burning atium related to Scadrian worldhopping?

BRANDON SANDERSON
That's a good question, the answer is no.


 
This WoB is very interesting, for it seems to rule out Demoux being able to hop if magic is necessary. I want to start with a bit of baseless conjecture though. Perhaps the burning of Atium itself is not what allows worldhopping, but rather the mere act of burning any metal. Such a scenario would allow Brandon to answer no, but not be lying. Perhaps it is the mere act of using Allomancy, given the right conditions/environment, that allows one to worldhop. Enough with baseless conjecture though, let's have some slightly less-baseless conjecture:

 
If it was the act of burning any metal, then the answer would still be "yes" in that WoB. Burning atium would still be related.
 
I feel like your attempt to explain Demoux is stretching things a lot.
 

I am pretty sure we have all come to agree that the three folks in the interlude described above are Seventeenth Shard members. We also know that the Ars Arcanums (Arcani?) are written by a Seventeenth Shard member, as we know it isn't Hoid. Seeing as Demoux is a member of Seventeenth Shard, it is possible that his worldhopping has to do with the organization (as AonDor also does not allow direct access to Shadesmar as we currently know it). The point, though, is that all the members we know of have access to a magic system (with the possible exception of Nazh, if he is the Ars Arcanum writer). Because of this, I can't see Demoux as definitive proof of someone not using their access to a magic system to worldhop.

 
Sure, it's possible Nazh and Demoux are being taxi'd around by someone else, but what about Mraize and Iyatil? I think Nazh retrieving Shallan's things shows the taxi option is unlikely.
 

So I know this post has been long, and all I've really said is "none of your examples are valid," mostly because of lack of information. But until said information is given to us through WoB or his books, I have yet to see any reason to think one would not need access to a magic system.
 
As for Rock and the Shardpool argument, I currently hold the opinion that the pools are necessary to worldhop if one cannot directly enter Shadesmar, but that any magic system holds the key to opening the "portal" within the pools. The shardpool in Elantris is the only first-hand example we have of anyone accessing the Cognitive or Spiritual Realms through the pools, and the only people who did were Elantrians. Granted, they were Reod Elantrians, by they were Elantrians nonetheless. Unless Rock has access to a magic system (which is very possible given the large amount of them on Roshar), I do not think he could worldhop.

 
Even if I accept the idea that every worldhopper we've seen has a magic system, I'm still not really seeing a mechanism proposed here. "Any magic system holds the key to opening a portal within the pools"? Okay... how? If the pool is just reacting to the presence of increased Investiture, well, every human already has Investiture in them that could serve to open a portal. We know burning atium isn't at all related to worldhopping, so it can't be that using your magic powers would be the thing that opens up the Shardpool...

 

(Mildly offtopic, but I think the easiest explanation is that Shardpools "mix" the Three Realms, much like highstorms seem to do, much like Radiants do. You just take a dip, and you could end up in the Cognitive or the Spiritual or the Physical, depending on what you intend. Although, I'm not sure if you can enter the Spiritual?)

To summarize my position, then:
 
I feel every example you've given is stretching things, or relying on things with a miniscule chance of happening. (Nazh has lerasium because Hoid gave it to him, there's a new spike Sazed created so kandra can worldhop, etc.). Maybe we don't have direct confirmation on these things... but it's still likely that the kandra worldhopper doesn't in fact have any special new spikes. It's still likely she hasn't taken any lerasium. I think the position that you require magic to worldhop is not well supported.
 
Nazh, from a planet where there is no magic system for him to manipulate because there's no Shard, nonetheless manages a near-miraculous feat of retrieving things from the bottom of the ocean. This, however, is easy to explain: he can enter and leave the Cognitive, and in the Cognitive, he was able to track the ship by looking for its bead. Hoid used this method to get into the Well.
 
Mraize and his babsk have also shown no signs of having a magic system (and when Iyatil was trying to kill Amaram, that would have been the time to use one if she had one), but nonetheless have managed to worldhop.
 
I still feel the WoB I posted earlier basically says that magic isn't required to worldhop, just that it allows you to get into the Cognitive easier, and allows you to navigate it more easily.

 

mycoltbug
Is there a magic system that best allows people to world hop between worlds?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, but it isn't needed. Some do help more with understanding how to traverse the Cognitive Realm.
(source)

Edited by Ookla the Infinite
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Even if I accept the idea that every worldhopper we've seen has a magic system, I'm still not really seeing a mechanism proposed here. "Any magic system holds the key to opening a portal within the pools"? Okay... how? If the pool is just reacting to the presence of increased Investiture, well, every human already has Investiture in them that could serve to open a portal. We know burning atium isn't at all related to worldhopping, so it can't be that using your magic powers would be the thing that opens up the Shardpool...

 

(Mildly offtopic, but I think the easiest explanation is that Shardpools "mix" the Three Realms, much like highstorms seem to do, much like Radiants do. You just take a dip, and you could end up in the Cognitive or the Spiritual or the Physical, depending on what you intend. Although, I'm not sure if you can enter the Spiritual?)

To summarize my position, then:

 

I feel every example you've given is stretching things, or relying on things with a miniscule chance of happening. (Nazh has lerasium because Hoid gave it to him, there's a new spike Sazed created so kandra can worldhop, etc.). Maybe we don't have direct confirmation on these things... but it's still likely that the kandra worldhopper doesn't in fact have any special new spikes. It's still likely she hasn't taken any lerasium. I think the position that you require magic to worldhop is not well supported.

 

Nazh, from a planet where there is no magic system for him to manipulate because there's no Shard, nonetheless manages a near-miraculous feat of retrieving things from the bottom of the ocean. This, however, is easy to explain: he can enter and leave the Cognitive, and in the Cognitive, he was able to track the ship by looking for its bead. Hoid used this method to get into the Well.

 

Mraize and his babsk have also shown no signs of having a magic system (and when Iyatil was trying to kill Amaram, that would have been the time to use one if she had one), but nonetheless have managed to worldhop.

 

I still feel the WoB I posted earlier basically says that magic isn't required to worldhop, just that it allows you to get into the Cognitive easier, and allows you to navigate it more easily.

 

 

I agree with you on this: I was stretching. The point I was trying to make, though, is that there are still possibilities, and we lack enough information to definitively say one does not need magic to worldhop. I think we will have to agree to disagree at this point, but I will flesh out my opinion for the sake of a fun, intriguing discussion:

 

I am of the opinion that the "key" to the pools' "lock" is a specific investiture amount. There is a threshold, and so long as an individual is above said threshold they can open the "portal" to Shadesmar (and potentially the Spiritual Realm, I do agree with you there). We see in Elantris that one does not need to actively make use of a magic system, necessarily, to open the portal, though this may be a Dor or AonDor specific mechanism. I feel Elantris did make clear, as you noted, that intent is important. The Reod Elantrians who used the pool to "pass on" presumably went to the Spiritual Realm, with the intent to be free from their suffering. Upon passing the investiture check, the pool opened and allowed passage due to their intent. It is also possible, though, that the pool did not perform its usual function because the Elantrians were Reod Elantrians, with a "flickering" investiture amount:

 

From earlier in this thread...

M: Okay. Most of my questions are actually about the Reod Elantrians. 

B: Okay.

M: So, could they be felt by Lifesense?

B: They would, um...they are in the middle of a transformation. I would say that yes they could be, but you're going to get like a stutter is what I'd guess you would get, it's like you would get a...a flashing.

M: Because they're kind of alive, and kind of not alive.

B: Yeah. And so, yeah, you'd just get a flashing sort of....something. 

M: Okay. What would a Shardblade do to them?

B: Um, a Shardblade would...oh boy. A Shardblade...a Shardblade would still be dangerous to them, um, the trick is, um, the Shardblade's gonna treat them half alive, half dead. So, it probably would be kind of a flicker, so it depends on when you hit them. It might cut the arm off. 

M: It might cut the arm off...

B: And it might just leave it dead. 

 

If my mechanism is correct, this could cause the pool to do some weird things, but I have no idea what, because it did not simply shut the pool down; it still worked.

 

I suppose it is possible to gain an increase in investiture without gaining access to a magic system, but I don't know how. Every means I can think of for gaining investiture involve gaining access to a magic system as well. I suppose my reasoning for why investiture is needed is the fact that everything "magical" in the Cosmere involves investiture. If it weren't for investiture, the Cosmere would just be our universe. I find it an odd concept that worldhopping is something farmer Joe can do if he happens to bathe in the wrong body of water and has a desire to visit new and exotic places.

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I am of the opinion that the "key" to the pools' "lock" is a specific investiture amount. There is a threshold, and so long as an individual is above said threshold they can open the "portal" to Shadesmar (and potentially the Spiritual Realm, I do agree with you there). We see in Elantris that one does not need to actively make use of a magic system, necessarily, to open the portal, though this may be a Dor or AonDor specific mechanism. I feel Elantris did make clear, as you noted, that intent is important. The Reod Elantrians who used the pool to "pass on" presumably went to the Spiritual Realm, with the intent to be free from their suffering. Upon passing the investiture check, the pool opened and allowed passage due to their intent. It is also possible, though, that the pool did not perform its usual function because the Elantrians were Reod Elantrians, with a "flickering" investiture amount:

 

I'm not entirely sure I'd say the zombie Elantrians are Invested above and beyond a regular human. They don't glow or anything. They're half-alive and half-dead, and they don't seem to have the Dor washing through them at all with the exception of Raoden who lit up intermittently, and he was special. From the WoB linked, I also note that it would be easier to Push and Pull on metals in a zombie Elantrian, which strongly suggests they have even less Investiture than a regular person.

 

I'm also not sure on the Spiritual Realm bit. I was under the impression they actually, well, died and just dissolved. I'm not sure at all, though, because we know so little on the Spiritual Realm.

 

As to the threshold: okay, there's other thresholds in the Cosmere, but why would, say, Cultivation's Shardpool open up nicely for someone who just has an extra added bit of Preservation because they're a Misting? Why would a non-native Shardpool care about what some other guy's Shard has given him? I feel that bit is encapsulated nicely in the fact that most regular humans just plain out die in the emerald pools, while the Horneaters are a-okay, but I definitely don't want to turn this into that particular discussion again.

 

I suppose it is possible to gain an increase in investiture without gaining access to a magic system, but I don't know how. Every means I can think of for gaining investiture involve gaining access to a magic system as well. I suppose my reasoning for why investiture is needed is the fact that everything "magical" in the Cosmere involves investiture. If it weren't for investiture, the Cosmere would just be our universe. I find it an odd concept that worldhopping is something farmer Joe can do if he happens to bathe in the wrong body of water and has a desire to visit new and exotic places.

 

I guess we differ on this point, then. To me, everything in the cosmere is already super magical, it just might not be apparent at first glance. Interacting with a Shardpool to go to a strange new place is the same to me as the merchant from WoK buying a detector fabrial. The just has cosmere has a few extra additions over ours. I think the prime example would be lifesense, since apparently in the cosmere that's not just an example of a cognitive bias like it is in ours and every human has it to a small degree. (More speculation: "lifesense" is just every human seeing slightly into the Spiritual?)

 

Also, everyone is Invested by the WoB from the Idaho signing:

Q: I’ve picked up in bits in pieces that it’s possible, for some people at least, to use the Shardpools to Worldhop…

A: Yes

Q: Can non-invested people do that, or do you have to have some form of investiture?

A: (Hesitantly) Every individual is invested to some extent…

Q: Do you have to have any special investiture above and beyond the normal spark of life?

A: I’m gonna go ahead and RAFO that.

(source)

 

Which is just another small point that the cosmere isn't at all like our regular universe. Also, I thought the WoB was pretty related, though it doesn't really resolve anything. I get the impression Brandon is hemming and hawing on the answer there because the type of Investiture matters and not the amount, but that is rampant speculation on my part. I think a Misting trying to use the emerald pools would end up dying, for example, much like Vin had issues with the Well while she had her earring in.

Edited by Ookla the Infinite
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Psst. maybe it would be prudent to move this discussion to its own thread?  This isn't exactly the place for that kind of discussion.

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