Theory: Sunmaker Changed Vorin Theology

[Aoibheann]

From looking through TWoK for references to The Sunmaker, I think that this historical figure was corrupted by Odium and rewrote the theology completely. We don't really know what the theology was prior to his interference.

There are three references to "The Sunmaker" in tWoK:

page 353:

"All wars are games. The greatest kind, with the pieces lost real lives, the prizes captured making for real wealth! This is the life for which men exist. To fight, to kill to win." He was quoting the Sunmaker, the last Alethi king to unite the highprinces. Gavilar had once revered his name.

page 462:

Jasnah sniffed. "Your tutors were idiots. Youthful immaturity is one of the cosmere's great catalysts for change, Shallan. Do you realize that the Sunmaker was only seventeen when he began his conquest?"

page 285:

"Don't get ahead of me please, bright one," Kadash assured, turning back toward him. "When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate an control the people."

Given the bits that we know above, I believe Vorin theology is completely skewed by what a blood-thirsty 17-year-old wanted it to be.

page 285:

Kadash pursed his lips. "It is a delicate balance we walk, bright one. Do you know much of the Hierocracy, the War of Loss?"

"The church tried to seize control, " Adolin said, shrugging. "The priests tried to conquer the world - for it's own good, they claimed."

"That was part of it," Kadash said. "The part we spoke of most often. But the problem goes much deeper. The church back then, it clung to knowledge. Men were not in command of their own religious paths; the priests controlled the doctrine, and a few members of the Church were allowed to know theology. They were taught to follow the priests. Not the Almighty or the Heralds, but the priests."

Supposedly no one knew what the theology truly was prior to the Sunmaker, afterwards people know, but it's shaped through the Sunmaker's lens.

I've posted the previous incarnation of this theory over at Stormblessed.com, but I would love to get opinions over here as well.

Thoughts?

[Chaos]

Seems very reasonable and likely to me.

[discipleofhoid]

For the most part seems good to me. The one thing I would object to is no one knowing what Vorinism was like before the Sunmaker. I think there was a small group that kept that knowledge alive. The group that Teft's family was a part of. I base that statement on the this quote:

“Maybe,” Teft said. “My parents believed in all of it. The Immortal Words, the Ideals, the Knights Radiant, the Almighty. Even old Vorinism. In fact, especially old Vorinism.”

[Kurkistan]

For the most part seems good to me. The one thing I would object to is no one knowing what Vorinism was like before the Sunmaker. I think there was a small group that kept that knowledge alive. The group that Teft's family was a part of. I base that statement on the this quote:

Nice evidence there. I like the theory overall, too.

[fiveAM]

For the most part seems good to me. The one thing I would object to is no one knowing what Vorinism was like before the Sunmaker. I think there was a small group that kept that knowledge alive. The group that Teft's family was a part of. I base that statement on the this quote:

They are/were called the Envisagers. It would make sense, a secret society to preserve the old knowledge.

[Aoibheann]

For the most part seems good to me. The one thing I would object to is no one knowing what Vorinism was like before the Sunmaker. I think there was a small group that kept that knowledge alive. The group that Teft's family was a part of. I base that statement on the this quote:

Ooooooo... I think you're right. I hadn't thought about the Envisagers as anti-Sunmaker. It makes lots of sense.

They did have to be secret - and Teft betrayed them... To whom?

[Zenith]

It could be that Teft betrayed them to the Ghostbloods, as a completely random theory. It is shown they have members everywhere, so they could be the ones looking to eliminate old knowledge, like Jasnah's digging up, for instance.

[Observer]

And now, extending the theory of Sunmaker, what if he was working with Odium? Shards seem to work quite nicely with corrupting beliefs and relgions, so I see no reason for Odium to neglect changing Honor's belief systems.

[Zenith]

I wouldn't put it out of the question. We don't know how much Odium has control of in Roshar, and that's sort of the beauty of TWoK. I love how the history has been fragmented, warped, shattered, and all sorts of other odd things have been happened to it; it not only gives us less of an idea of what might happen/what did happen (giving more of those shocked moments we all love), but is an impressive worldbuilding skill. Making such a complex world, Brandon probably had the itching to put in all sorts of awesome lore, but he made even more awesome fragments of stuff.

/Appreciation for TWoK history rant

[Vortaan]

I wonder how long it took the Sunmaker to finish his conquests. If he started when he was seventeen... five years? Ten? Maybe it's not so much the lens of a bloodthirsty seventeen year old but the lens of someone who really only knew how to conquer.

As for Teft's family, I've always figured they were descendants of the soldiers that the KR in Dalinar's vision walked back to. I mean... a huge military force like the KR needs a support structure. What happened to them?

[Observer]

Why'd they leave anyways. I think the answer to that is mor eimportant than we think...

[Zenith]

It's really important, yes. We just don't discuss it as often as other stuff, probably because all we really know is that they left for some reason.

[Observer]

True. I still think they and the Nigthwatcher are far more important than we think

By the way, has anybody tried to identify those spren that appear when a chasmfiend dies? It's mentioned in such a quick way right at the start, it automatically makes me suspicious. Anyone figured out was those are yet?

[Zenith]

I think Chasmfiendspren is what they would be called.

By the way, answer to the age old question:

Are Chasmfiendspren attracted to a chasmfiend's death, or do they cause it? They cause it, of course. The plate and blade are the spren's weapon of choice, and they squirt water into the chasmfiend's innards, causing them to shrivel up much like the wicked witch of the west did, but only on the inside. They also give the blade a deep cleaning with the water while they are in wherever they go, which is why blades are wet when they come out of wherever they're stored.

I think that should answer your question .

[Lightflame]

I think Chasmfiendspren is what they would be called.

By the way, answer to the age old question:

Are Chasmfiendspren attracted to a chasmfiend's death, or do they cause it? They cause it, of course. The plate and blade are the spren's weapon of choice, and they squirt water into the chasmfiend's innards, causing them to shrivel up much like the wicked witch of the west did, but only on the inside. They also give the blade a deep cleaning with the water while they are in wherever they go, which is why blades are wet when they come out of wherever they're stored.

I think that should answer your question .

Therefore, Dalinar and Elhokar are going to kill some Chasmfiends by putting them through car washes.

[Aethling]

Nice idea this theory. What about turning it on its head and saying that instead of corrupting the religion, Sunmaker returned it to its original intent? Imagine a purification of the church back to its founding grounds and getting rid of thousands of years of tacked on rites and self-serving custom? Honestly, that is the way I interpreted the fall of the monolithic church.

After all, Sanderson does have several real-world examples to go by that many readers would grasp on an instinctive level if not outright.

[Straff Venture]

Nice idea this theory. What about turning it on its head and saying that instead of corrupting the religion, Sunmaker returned it to its original intent? Imagine a purification of the church back to its founding grounds and getting rid of thousands of years of tacked on rites and self-serving custom? Honestly, that is the way I interpreted the fall of the monolithic church.

From what I've heard of the Sunmaker so far I can imagine him as the sort of person who would change the religion to suit his needs, regardless of their truth. Still, its very early on for speculation so I can't know for sure.

[Aethling]

Not saying that it isn't possible that he did change it around to suit his needs. I just feel that the purification and return to the original premises makes as much, if not more, sense.

Historically, many of the things he was said to have stopped are some of the same ideas that the Protestants attributed to the Catholic church. That is something that most people in the western world would recognize at least subconsciously. Even non-Christians in the West would have an idea of it because it is a major part of any history class from elementary to college. Still, like you said, it is just way too early to know.

Little was mentioned of the religious fathers in Elantris. Mistborn had multiple religions mentioned. Warbreaker just outlines some basics. It is entirely possible that we might never even hear of Sunmaker again, but it is doubtful, in my opinion.

[Observer]

I think Chasmfiendspren is what they would be called.

By the way, answer to the age old question:

Are Chasmfiendspren attracted to a chasmfiend's death, or do they cause it? They cause it, of course. The plate and blade are the spren's weapon of choice, and they squirt water into the chasmfiend's innards, causing them to shrivel up much like the wicked witch of the west did, but only on the inside. They also give the blade a deep cleaning with the water while they are in wherever they go, which is why blades are wet when they come out of wherever they're stored.

I think that should answer your question .

This. Just, this. When they invent the water gun, it will forever change chasm battles.

[king of nowhere]

I'm wondering if all that crap about gender roles separations comes from the sunmaker or earlier, but I won't be surprised if it was the making of odium. It is just so needlessly complicated that it surprises me vorin societies survived that long.

[Cheese Ninja]

This is actually a pretty neat theory. It seems like it might also tie into who the Lighteyes are descended from and why they ended up as the leaders. Dalinar's vision of the Recreance indicates that eye color didn't seem to matter back then.

[grinachu]

I disagree with this theory, because I think it neglects an important part of Vorin theology.

We have confirmation from Dalinar's Almighty granted visions and from plenty of in-world sources that to seek to know the future is Forbidden in Vorinism. We don't know exactly why, although it seems that Honor and Cultivation both do a little bit of future prediction themselves.

When the Sunmaker unmasked the Hierocracy, he specifically found that all the prophecies that the priests claimed to know were false. If Sunmaker had remade Vorinism under the influence of Odium or what have you, then we wouldn't expect an independent corroboration between the Almighty's injunction against predicting the future and Sunmaker's declaration that the prophecies were false.

I think there's a lot more going on in terms of religious change and Vorinism than we understand. In particular, I think the Heralds have been around and may well have influenced the development of Vorinism independently. Certainly the Jezrien heresy (the one that worships him as the only God) among the Emul, may have been planted by him independently.

[Cheese Ninja]

Where was there anything in Dalinar's visions that indicated that predicting the future was forbidden? I know that when Adolin met with Kabash, Kabash said that Old Vorinism had made up all its prophecies and visions, but we can't be sure that what Kabash said is accurate and true if the Sunmaker really was corrupted. Tanavast himself tried to predict the future and pass his message on Dalinar, and possibly through the death visions. That doesn't fit New Vorinism's stance of "to predict the future is forbidden." I think that New Vorinism is just another example of religion being sculpted by the people in power in order to solidify their command.

[name_here]

Technically, Vorinism holds that only the Almighty can see the future, so Tanavast predicting the future doesn't conflict with that. However, given the timing of events, I doubt Old Vorinism had any accurate predictions of the future. Honor apparently died not too long after the Recreance, and predicting the future for any real length of time is pretty much exclusive to Shards.

[happyman]

Technically, Vorinism holds that only the Almighty can see the future, so Tanavast predicting the future doesn't conflict with that. However, given the timing of events, I doubt Old Vorinism had any accurate predictions of the future. Honor apparently died not too long after the Recreance, and predicting the future for any real length of time is pretty much exclusive to Shards.

Well, if they had accurate long-term prediction, they probably came from Tanavast. Such long-term predictions are exactly the kind of thing I would destroy, if I were Odium. Odium can probably plan better than Ruin could, so unlike in Mistborn, Odium would plant the seeds carefully with a long-term plan in mind. Discrediting Honor, even while keeping his worship "alive", sounds like a good start.