07.07.2014 - manaheim - Redemption's Edge - Ch1 Total Rewirte 2 - (L)

[manaheim]

Thanks for reading!

[jagabond]

Hey, chapter 1! 

 

Overall I liked it, but I really think you'd benefit from starting with the action, with the couple arguing and the guy being taken away. It's visually interesting and it lets you show off Candace's skill, fear, and curiosity. It's well-balanced, but I feel like it would be more accessible if her many observations were wrapped around the action.

 

"Being attractive left her in the peculiar class of women who were assumed untouchable by most men."

 

This, I think, could be worded a little better... We have Seth's interest in her to tell us she's attractive. Later in the chapter, the woman she helps comments on her looks as well. Those might be enough. I dunno, something about the untouchable comment seems to run counter to her constant fear of being noticed. Maybe the wording just doesn't sit right with me.

 

Which, finally, is my main concern. I was expecting a little more display of why Candace is bad (being called a "bad girl" is a touch cheesy). We have, at the end of chapter 1, a tattoo, an eye for curious detail (want to see more of this, clever characters are always fun), and a vague mentioning of a rap sheet, with a few hints of what she did. But I feel like a strong intro chapter would include an example of both sides of her behavior, not just the sympathetic ones. Especially given that ending!

 

The only other noticeable thing I'd say is watch out for your dialogue takes and action. Sometimes you just have to let the dialogue flow, maybe cut back a little bit on Candace reacting to everything that's said.

 

I'm glad I read it. You're really good at keeping a flow of information. I can never just give character thoughts like this, I show way too much. There's a lot of good telling in here, which is good, given how long we'll probably Candace's head.

Edited July 7, 2014 by jagabond

[andyk]

Overall I liked it. It flowed nicely, there's conflict and tension pretty much throughout to keep me engaged, and Candace is fairly interesting. Like jagabond, I think that you could do with showing her bad girl side more - because it's entirely something referred to in vague terms, rather than shown or given detail, it's not entirely convincing.

 

Also, having read the chapters of this you sent round before, this is too long for my tastes for something that's essentially all prologue. Almost everything that's happened in this chapter is about to become irrelevant for a while at least, and it takes a long time to get to the big story shift.

 

One more specific thing:

'there was something undefinable... about the way they moved' - would be better if you could define it, after all she's a seasoned pro, she knows what she's looking at and for.

[Endurant Archivist]

Great job with creating a situation that kept me interested. The police officers had a good dialog between themselves and were believable as people when they interrupted the argument between the couple then taking the guy back for processing.

 

Candace was a strong character, with serious thoughts, emotions and spunk. It felt very drawn out, the time I spend in her head, looking for an exit, wanting to leave. Also, I'm not sure what would be so bad that two normal officers would realize who she is if she just got up and left. On a note about the cafe, I'm not sure if anyone actually just sits in the cafe to drink their coffee. If I get coffee, I leave. Or I'm with someone and I sit down. Or I have my computer or story work. Could she be doing something that she has spread around the table? 

 

Seth's flirtation wasn't bad, though towards the end, when she was leaving, it seemed like he was straying from what someone would actually say. "My fallen angel" Seemed...strange

 

Could you include more about her heist earlier? I didn't know what she was like a cat trapped in a corner till near the end. And maybe explain what happened (like what went wrong) that forces her to stay hidden.

 

The tattoo was an interesting element, I'm eager to find out more about it. Good eye on Seth's part to see it. I might have mentioned the mirror earlier, so that the reader knows it's there and it's not suddenly existing when Seth notices the tattoo through it.

 

Looking forward to finding out what happens after the crash.

[Mandamon]

I think the others have defined the main points I still had problems with. A lack of convincing background on the "bad girl" front is the biggest one.  As I recall, the comment originally followed through on the next several chapters as well, though you may have changed that.

 

I do like the additions of the domestic dispute and the second cop.  It makes the situation a little more believable.  However, I thought Seth should be attracting more attention if everyone just applauded him.  Someone else might even ask him to sit down or buy him another drink, if all the patrons were that appreciative.  It's also strange someone pushes a chair in his path with him just being recognized.

 

Some of Seth's dialogue is still really corny, especially toward the end.  I think the problem I have with him is that his dialogue seems inconsistent with his actions.  He can accost a muscle-bound jerk face to face, then make a beeline for the most attractive girl in the room, but then throws out this line:

"You’re not going to send a poor guy packing, after he finally worked up the nerve to walk over and say hello… are you?”

I don't get the feeling Seth has to work up the nerve for anything.  This makes him sound like a greaseball to me.

 

Finally, I'll second andyk's comment that the setup is a bit long when everything will change next chapter, and Endurant Archivist on the mirror.  That really popped out when you described it.  "There's been a mirror here this whole time?"

 

Overall, a good improvement.  Looking forward to more!

 

 

Notes while reading:

 

pg 2: "She struggled to identify the strange feeling at the edge of her senses, and then added disgust to the crowd of emotions in her head. One of the cops was just her type- physically speaking, anyway."

--In understand what this means, but I'm not sure it works.  I read "disgust" and then wonder how that jives with him being attractive--they're basically opposites.

 

pg 3: "his rugged features spoke of experience, while still conversant in the vibrancy of youth."

--Way too purple.

 

pg 12: How does she know about the third retired cop?  Also, sort of strange having three officers in the same coffee shop.  If it's near a station, it might be a good one to avoid if you're a wanted criminal.

 

pg 14: "accidentally thumping the shiny napkin dispenser between them.

--this seems incongruous with how you've described Seth being careful and deliberate.

[manaheim]

Guys, I cannot thank you enough for this.

 

I swear, I shave and I prune and I adjust and I think I've got it nailed, and then you guys call out areas where I was clearly blind to my own work.  I have some ideas on how I can make some adjustments, though making it more clear that she's a bad girl may be challenging... I'm thinking of maybe having her check the expensive watch she stole from a museum or something... something like that. Not sure how that will come across. The problem is that all her being bad is behind her as of the start of this chapter. Someone suggested once that I have her start off the book doing a job, but the problem is I need to have the Seth tie-in here or the book won't work.

 

Ugh.

 

 

Anyway, seriously... thank you all.  I'm gonna go for a bike ride and think about this some more and come back and work on it.

 

I've also made a lot of changes to Ch2 and 3... would you all be interested in seeing those?  If so, I'll see if I can post up 2 next week.

 

Did I say thanks yet? lol  Thanks so much.

[manaheim]

Oh... and the good news is that it seems like a lot of the major issues have been addressed... like most of the Seth issues. A lot of the things you guys tagged were carry-overs from his old dialogue that I didn't rewrite.  So... I'll go rewrite those.

[Endurant Archivist]

Yeah, she was hit by a car. I'm curious to see what happens next!

[Robinski]

Going into this re-read, I don’t remember a great deal of the detail on my issues with the chapter first time around. I remember the outline of events, and the tone of my reactions to certain things (yes, Seth, in the main), but I haven’t re-read my earlier comments, or anyone else’s, so hopefully my perspective is as fresh as it can be.

 

The others make a lot of good points, most of which I would go along with. I think you’re getting a grip on Seth’s character, maybe still some work to do, but improved from the original certainly. I like that you’ve ‘hung a lantern’ on it with Candace’s reaction.

 

I’ll do a deal with you – I would happily re-read Chapters 2 and 3 – but I’d like to see 4, 5 and 6 (etc.) as well. Have you got them, will you write them?

 

Also, I like that you go for a bike ride before an edit – I have a cup of tea and a donut..., metaphorically speaking, but also an actual donut sometimes.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

Page 1 – for ‘dim’ profile, I'm thinking ‘sketchy’.

 

Page 3 – I'm wondering how Candace can see the tattoo if it’s distant from her and she’s sitting, but I guess she saw it when she came in. I get a vague sense of repetition in the argument (finger on the table, fist on the table, muscled cop, muscled husband). These aren’t big issues, I'm happier with the dynamic so far now that there are two cops and more action. I'm hoping it won’t get too ‘crowded’.

 

Page 4 – Ha-ha, I like ‘cloud of dysfunction’.

 

Page 5 – I like the thread of humour running through – it feels to me like you’ve played it up a little more, but maybe it’s just the couple giving a new foil Candace’s attention. But why does she feel the need to leave, if anything the husband is deflecting attention from her?

 

I'm not keen on Seth’s description of his job as ‘making sure everyone’s alright’; it’s not very technical or sophisticated – what about ‘keeping the peace’?

 

Page 6 – As advocate appearing on behalf of Old Nick, I wonder if t-shirt man has actually violated the statute, my impression was that he didn’t touch Seth before the officer engaged him.

 

Page 7 – Maybe I'm more like the Quibbler today, but if everyone else is clapping, I'm asking myself if Candace isn’t actually standing out more by keeping her head down. After consideration, probably not, I can picture some others not clapping.

 

Page 8 – repetition of 'officer'.
 

It always strikes me that all of Candace's stress could be solved if she got her coffee to go. She knows it's a risk. She knows there could be cops. It just seems like such a big thing in her mind for such a small thing – why does she put herself through it?
 

Page 12 – ‘It seemed unlikely that an officer would try to take her on his own.’ She has just seen his considerable skills, why would he not think he could take her on his own?
 

I like the way you've 'hung a lantern' on Seth's corny pick-up lines through Candace's reaction.
 

Page 14 – Took his hand, rather than ‘took his own’, I think.
 

I presume Seth got two coffees because the second one was for his partner, who I guess isn't coming  back.
 

Page 15 – When Candace is sizing up a way to attack Seth, she has forgotten his handling of Triumph guy. I don't buy that, it was too recent.
 

Page 17 – '... pulling up on the yoke before insane schemes crashed into the prison courtyard.' - I don't understand his phrase.
 

Page 18 – When Seth calls her 'fallen angel' it occurred to me that his corny dialogue can work (within reason) and that it's all in the delivery.
 

I presume the Brietling is foreshadowing the fact that there is something more going on with him. But he won't 'literally' be counting the seconds.
 

Page 19 – What does 'Not onto me. Into me.' mean, does it refer to hitting? I thought that was 'on', not 'onto'.

[manaheim]

Robinki... awesome feedback, thank you.

 

And I like your donut idea far better than my biking one.

 

And yes... I have the whole book written, actually. Though presently I'm re-tooling it to fit the changes in Seth and the changes in their relationship.  I'm up to about Ch8 on this editing pass.  The book is about 27 chapters.  So yeah, sure, I'll definitely keep 'em coming. I had stopped last time because there were some deep fundamental issues that had to be fixed here in these early chapters before I bothered anyone with the later ones.

 

You're not from the US, I believe, right? I think the onto/into thing may be a US phrase.  "He's onto me!" (He knows I'm a bad person despite my attempt to hide it) "He's into me!" (He thinks I'm beautiful and wants me big time.)

 

I like sketchy... much better. Thank you. That line always irked me.

 

And glad you liked cloud of dysfunction.   I was afraid that was too much.

 

Very glad you get and like the humor in it. I want the book to have that throughout.

 

Again, all great comments- thanks so much.  I actually wound up (stupidly) watching AGOT last night instead of working on my edit, so this works out well as I can factor in your comments too.

 

Thanks again!!!

[Robinski]

The donut thing is not a good long term strategy of course, but every now and then... (I miss Tim Horton's).

 

Totally understand you parking it of course, I've done the same with my current project.

 

Yes, I'm from sunny Glasgow. We have 'onto me' (which I think of as a British expression), and 'into me' (via the US), but for some reason I didn't read the line that way. I think I linked it with the previous line 'hitting on me', like 'he's hitting onto me' - which makes no sense, of course! Just me being slow and not taking the time for work it out.

 

Also, watching GoT is NEVER stupid :-)

[manaheim]

You're not the only one to comment on the onto me/into me thing, so something about it is clearly off... It's about 20%... probably enough that I need to look at it. I'll check the hitting on me thing. Maybe that's it.

 

Watching AGOT is almost as brutal to my mind as reading the damned books. So harsh. So horrible. lol I usually have to stop after 2 episodes.

 

Now I'm gonna go get me a donut.

[manaheim]

OK! I put some real work into tuning up the later dialogue between Candace and Seth and I'm much happier with it.

 

I also trimmed out a bit of Candace's internal monologue. Basically, I was just very critical about what added something, and what belabored a point already covered. There was just some residual stuff from my first draft. I really should get into the habit of a total rewrite of Ch1 for each book, but it's just SO discouraging to start over. lol

 

Lots of other fine tunings based off some comments.

 

Thanks again, all.

[manaheim]

Hey folks... working on some Ch1 edits and wondering what you all think of this.

 

Speaking to the bad-girl thing, does this bring it out more? (I'm trying to find ways to make it clear without being too heavy-handed)

 

"Her body tensed as two of Boston’s finest stepped onto the black and white tiled floor. While confident that the police had a sketchy profile of her at best, overconfidence could mean jail time, and there was no way in hell she was going to jail. Particularly not now, hours away from a seven-figure job that would allow her to live comfortably for life."

 

Also added this...

 

"She took a deep breath. She needed to keep her wits about her long enough to get away from this man. Then she could do the job, fence the goods, and quit the thieving game forever. The take from this one hit would be enough for her and her father to live comfortably for the rest of their lives. Sure, it would ruin the family, but the bastards deserved it, and their insurance would probably cover it anyway. And yes, the risk was extreme, but so was continuing to live as a wanted woman with a coffee addiction."

Edited July 26, 2014 by manaheim

[Robinski]

For me, it begs the question, 'Why do the family deserve it?', so it's possibly a can o'worms, but I think it's along the right lines. Then again, I think it probably needs a check on most of her reactions in the first chapter to see if there are any other opportunities to reinforce or support the position, without overdoing it, of course.

[manaheim]

Thanks, Robinski.  It's hard to have her say or do much without opening a can of worms. *chuckle* There's a lot of stuff that leads up to what she's doing, why she's here, etc.

 

I'll think about it though and see if I can make it work better. It's the first pass of a pretty tough thing to inject, so... likely plenty of room to tune.

 

Thanks again.

[Mandamon]

Good work on the updates.  Specifics are what's wanting, to my mind.  Both of those edits adds some specifics the reader can place and judge as to "bad-girl-ness."  However, I'll second Robinksi's comment that it then brings up the question of why the family deserves it, which gets vague again.  When you're telling why she's bad rather than showing, the reader doesn't get to make their own judgement and has to rely on yours.

[manaheim]

I hear what you're saying.  Thanks for the comments.

[manaheim]

Been thinking about this... and it occurs to me the problem you guys are calling out is exactly why I didn't go into this before. It's a Pandora's box... I'm struggling to determine how to...

 

1> Show she's bad.

2> Not open Pandora's box.

3> Not severely alter the story. (The story really isn't about her as a criminal... it's about her turning away from and dealing with having been one.)

 

Any thoughts here would be much appreciated.

[Endurant Archivist]

@manaheim What about having her reconsider the recent job she did? Or maybe she's hiding out because she went back on a deal with other criminals on her crew, determined to make some things right from her past. You wouldn't go into extreme detail, but give her a job she was supposed to do and some of her thoughts on it. Or maybe make that couple have an argument about something she took and she feels guilt?

 

Just some random ideas.

[manaheim]

ooo... you know... tying in the couple to the whole thing would REALLY work.  It would take some serious effort to stitch it in, but that's too awesome of an idea to pass up.

 

You, sir, win the day.

 

Thank you!