Shard power level.

[dyring]

So. If this is up somewhere and I missed it(tried to look for anything simular but couldent find it), well, sorry, and feel welcome to move this post there then

Right. Some groundwork first.

Odium Killed/destroyed atleast Aona, Skai and Tanavast/Honor. In particular the destruction of Aona and Skai is odd. sure, you could suppose that after a millennia long battle with Honor, Odium was experienced in shard combat, wich neither Aona or Skai was, and he managed to take them out because of that. Still, feels odd.

I have a different suggestion. It starts with Ruin and Preservation, the shards we know most about.

When Ruin and Preservation created scadrial(or atleast, life on scadrial), it states that Preservation became weaker then Ruin because he put a tiny smudgeon more of preservation then Ruin in humanity, making himself weaker, and making humanity more of Preservation then Ruin.

The keyword is, more.

This indicates Ruin too is weaker then he was at the start, even if he is still stronger then preservation at that point.

Aona and Skai was the creators of Sel. Both weaker than before creating it.

Using the above fact(well, mostly facts), my first pitiful attempt at a theory here is this:

Is it possible that Honor and Cultivation created Roshar, weakening themselves, While Odium played no part in this, arriving later, being att full strength still? Is there any statements that Odium infact joined in creating the world?

Perhaps the reason he is "the most dangerous" shard is not that it is more powerful, but that it is one of the few(or the only) shard that is actually at full strength, not having spent energy creating.

Perhaps Sazed despite holding two shards would not be as much stronger as could be expected. Or not stronger at all.

So, fairly short, feel free to rip it apart:) Don´t have my book here to doublecheck, so there may be glaring faults in it:p

[Wispsy]

I like it

[Chaos]

Now that's an interesting idea. I don't have any critiques to it--it's straightforward and elegant. This is an excellent possibility. I'll have to think about it before espousing it, but I very much like it.

[Joe ST]

The only issues I see are the assumptions that the other shards were 'weakened' (or even created their residences) like R&P on Scadrial.

Interesting theories though.

[lauren.e135]

Makes sense. I like it. If Odium doesn't use his power to fuel magic systems and/or life, it would make sense that he would be "more powerful" than the other Shards simply because he hasn't spread himself out at all. All of his energy could be concentrated onto whatever task he was preforming, unlike the Shards defending themselves from Odium's attack who would only have the power they hadn't already invested left.

[Eri]

Yes, it makes a lot of sense.

However, with Aona and Skai, I suppose he manipulated them to fight each other (or he didn't even need to manipulate them into it) and when they were weakened by constant fighting or just busy and not expecting, he killed them. But obviously, him having full Shard power and them having invested in many things makes that plan easier. ;-)

[Chaos]

Indeed. It should be noted, however, that it's certainly possible that some Shards have more "Shard power" than others--when glass shatters, you don't equally-sized pieces. But I like this explanation better.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

If Odium didn't create them, then who of Honor or Cultivation created the Voidbringers and 'hordes' of enemies that the Heralds, Radiants, and people fought in all the desolations?

Assuming those 3 Shards created any of the life on Roshar...

They sure seemed like creations of Odium to me the way they were described and they way they acted. I suppose maybe Odium just used other creations the same way that Ruin used TLR's Koloss and Inquisitors, but they were based on the magic created by Ruin. If Odium were using creatures you'd think they would have to either be created by him, created by magic he generates, or both right?

That is my only real hesitance towards this theory right now, but...

I personally think it has more to do with the nature of his Shard and what capabilities that gives him. I do think the inherent nature of the Shard has something to do with it as well. In the same way that some Allomancers are more powerful than others based on "purity of their bloodlines" and some Elantrians generate more power with their AonDor than others... I'm feel like each Shard gained different base levels of Aldonasium's overall power than others.

Keep the ideas flowing!

[Shard Obsessed]

Odium didn't have to create the Voidbringers actually - maybe they were creatures of Honor or Cultivation that Odium simply corrupted or twisted.

We know Roshar has Voidbinding, which by its very name sounds almost a direct opposite to Surgebinding. We've had references to Voidlight in contrast to Stormlight. Ten Fools where Honor has Ten Heralds. If you look at other worlds with more than one magic system, even Scadrial where Ruin and Preservation are close to complete opposites - none of their magic systems mirror each other as much as they seem to on Roshar from what little we know so far.

Ruin, for all the ominous implications inherent in his name, was essentially entropy. And although he does seem to be one of the darker shards, entropy is still a necessary part of the life cycle of the universe. It's like a fire that clears away all the dead parts of a forest so that a new one can grow unimpeded. Ruin may not have been a nice guy, but he was still an integral cog in birth/life/death/new birth cycle of things.

Odium, on the other hand, is just pain and suffering and hatred and all around badness. I think what we're referring to as power levels is inherently misleading, because we're talking about sixteen fundamental forces of creation, the universe, life, whatever. At a certain point, once you get high enough up the ladder, things like 'stronger' and 'weaker' aren't really relevant. How do you really rank whether the personification of honor is stronger or weaker than the personification of devotion, for example? Or ruin vs odium? It's like saying, oh hurricane vs earthquake, who wins?

The key, I think, is in the shard's intent. Ruin could help preservation create, because he's still part of the creation cycle. I don't think Odium actually created the Voidbringers because I don't think Odium CAN create. So in that area, he's weaker than Endowment and Cultivation and Preservation and the others. But when it comes to destruction, or corrupting honor or bonds or oaths...he's the best there is, because he's the personification of that. So he inevitably has an edge when it comes to splintering other shards or corrupting what they've made...its part of his nature.

As to Preservation making himself weaker than Ruin....its not about power levels, per se, its about him going more against his own nature, the intent of his shard. It's not like he had a set amount of power and then put x amount of power into creating humanity....its that he went against his own strengths and used his power in a way that it wasn't really intended to be used....so it's not that it was a power drain, it was that it was an INEFFICIENT power drain.

I think this is an important distinction, because take for instance Nalthis, the only world so far with just one shard. Endowment created humanity all on its own, so if it were just a matter of power levels, then logically wouldn't Endowment be weaker from creating humanity itself than either Ruin or Preservation, who each only put a portion of their power into creating humanity? Yet if Odium were to go to Nalthis, I don't think he'd find a radically weakened Endowment....because giving life is part of Endowment's nature. Its his/her strength, what it's meant to do, and thus creating life is just part of it fulfilling its own nature, rather than something that would leave it on its deathbed, helpless to fight back if Odium came calling.

[fiveAM]

Mmm very interesting. Shard Obsessed makes some really good points. I agree on that I think Odium can't create, Odium is hate, he hates everything, life, creation, existence? Haha, random thought, what if Odium's ultimate goal is to Splinter all the Shards and then Splinter himself? Sort of like a killing spree ending with suicide? Splinter since I don't think Shards can't be destroyed?

[Wispsy]

at the same time tlr spent years slowly filtering some of ruins power into the physical world, not really a huge amount on the scale of gods, but enough to make then equal from when preservation put more power into creating humanity, so vin could stop ruin affecting the physical world (which wouldnt have been successful if ruin found that extra part of his power, note why he was looking for it so badly). It is mentioned in mistborn many times that the slight imbalance of power was small but enough over the years for ruin to slowly win, hence the preservations betrayal and giving up his cognitive mind and all that to trap him. Im not disagreeing with your other points but it does seem one shard can be more powerful then another.

Edit, this is a reply to shard obsessed btw

Edited November 18, 2011 by Wispsy

[dyring]

It is mentioned in mistborn many times that the slight imbalance of power was small but enough over the years for ruin to slowly win, hence the preservations betrayal and giving up his cognitive mind and all that to trap him.

And does not this sound much like what we know regarding honor/tanavast´s death?

As for this

As to Preservation making himself weaker than Ruin....its not about power levels, per se, its about him going more against his own nature, the intent of his shard. It's not like he had a set amount of power and then put x amount of power into creating humanity....its that he went against his own strengths and used his power in a way that it wasn't really intended to be used....so it's not that it was a power drain, it was that it was an INEFFICIENT power drain.

I still sadly don´t have my book, but well, Atium, the physical form of Ruin, should be a very efficent use of his shard´s power. Yet, he very much want it back, as he is weaker without it.

Therefor, efficent or not should not affect it. The power is invested in the world, evidence hints that the shards are unable to use it then, as Ruin cannot even find the Atium part of himself, much less use it.

Preservation could perhaps get his strenght back, if he killed all life in Scadrial. But I would guess it should take time. Perhaps Sazed have gotten the power from the Atium back now, the part that Elend and his Atium misting army consumed, but there should still be much invested in the world.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Ruin couldn't find his body because of the way he saw metals though, not because he just couldn't see it.

To Ruin and Preservation metals give off light (just like to a coinshot/lurcher) and since Atium was a metal, he could see it, but TLR stored almost all of the available atium in the world in a chamber that was filled with other metal, so Ruin wouldn't be able to perceive the atium cache distinctly from where it was stored. At least that I how I understand that plot element.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Mmm very interesting. Shard Obsessed makes some really good points. I agree on that I think Odium can't create, Odium is hate, he hates everything, life, creation, existence? Haha, random thought, what if Odium's ultimate goal is to Splinter all the Shards and then Splinter himself? Sort of like a killing spree ending with suicide? Splinter since I don't think Shards can't be destroyed?

I would have to disagree that Odium can't create, but I'm basing this solely on the theological explanation of an 'Ardent' who was an assassin... though since he was part of a secret society, they may have more information than even the Ardents in relation to this subject. Here a quote when Shallan is asking Kabsal about Voidbringers:

They were creatures of terrible destructive power, forged in Damnation, created from hate.”

...

“Who made them? I mean, the Almighty wasn’t likely to have ‘created something from hate.’ So what made them?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Kindle Locations 13449-13452). Tor Books. Kindle Edition.

To me that says that Odium did create or does create. I have a running post on the Theory board that Parshment are not voidbringers, so I think that Odium did create a three different creatures and that Voidbringers are humans similarly attuned to Odium's power as the Knights Radiants are to Honor's Shard

[dyring]

Havent forgotten this old thing, and I´d like to add a piece from today´s online Q&A with Brandon here on the site.

2. Just after the Shattering (but before they started created humans or something), did all Shards have roughly the same amount of raw power?

Yes. Good question.

Not proof of the theory, but proves one of my assumptions wich I used to set the base, that they were of somewhat equal strength to begind with, and "the most dangerous shard" isnt due to pure base strength:).

I´v considered one thing about shard strength, when reading theories on among other things the "power of creation" on here. I haveint finished considering this, but writing it anyway, so there may be even bigger holes then normally;)

Im thinking there are two types of strength/power for shards, wich one need to keep differentiated. Pure strength, wich feeds their actions cannot run out. This is the "power of creation" so to speak. I believe this is unlimited, something a part of the shards, cannot run out. However, there is likely the shards strength in terms of the amount they can channel at a time.

To use a metaphor, think of the different between Elend, a Lerasium mistborn, Vin, and Kelsier who in turn was weaker that Vin(in purely strength terms.

A shard not having weakened themself by putting some of their power in Humanity, (or having it leached away by the pits of Hathsim or simular) would be Elend.

Ruin, having used some would be Vin, while Preservation would be Kelsier.

Having unlimited metals(metals being the power of creation in this metaphor) the unweakened shard would be able to push harder, despite the power being unlimited.

Does that make any sort of sense?

Edited September 26, 2012 by dyring

[Aminar]

THis makes a ton of sense. I'd like to expound on it a little though. At least with Aona and Skie, they seem to be fairly opposite and fighting for control of the world(with Dominion seemingly winning at the moment.) But beyond that, if they focused all of their power on stopping each other Odium as a third party could have easily come in and just rocked both of them before they could react. I imagine similar things could have happened on Scadrial if Odium had arrived pre-harmony. As to shattering Honor, I do think Odium, by not creating things or even creating things with no purpose but to destroy, could have shattered Honor. If he expends some of his energy to make destructive beings to hold off Honor's not entirely battle worthy creations(Human's are kinda crappy when compared to most animals their size) he could easily destroy Honor. I do wonder why he hasn't started collecting up some of the other shards. I mean hatred and dominion could work pretty well together. (In a terrible awful, worse than the holocaust kind of way.)

(Now I'm questioning Odium's motivations. True hatred isn't wanting everything gone, it's wanting everything to suffer as much as possible. But that isn't what Odium seems to be going for...)

[Thought]

I like the idea of two different ways of speaking of a shard's power, dyring, but rather than making the distinction between reserve and power-per-minute (as it were), perhaps the distinction is more along the lines of intent.

We know that Odium doesn't simply claim other shards because he doesn't want their intent corrupting his own. We do know, however, that he is interested in being the most powerful being. Since Atium and Lerasium appear to be nice little nuggets of intent-free power, why not condense Devotion and Domination into something like that? Instead, Odium created a bunch of life. Life that, notably, doesn't seem very powerful.

In contrast, we know that when someone uses Allomancy, they draw on the power of Preservation. Metals act as gateways that release the power of creation in specific ways. However, we also know that Preservation powering allomancy directly would affect its power level. In both cases, the power is ultimately coming from Preservation. The main difference seems to be that Preservation is expending a limited, shall we say Cognitive, resource. Similarly, when Preservation trapped Ruin, it did so by sacrificing part of its mind, rather than power. Or when it created people, it gave them a bit of self-awareness. People don't seem to be innately more powerful than animals, just more aware.

Splintering a shard, then, might not reduce its power, but reduce its cognitive aspect. Domination's power might still be there (and indeed, seems to still be there, given the magic systems of Sel still work as per normal), but without access to a unified intent, no one could take it up.

[name_here]

I am, as always, really dubious of the argument that a Shard's Intent limits what the Shard's power can do, as opposed to slowly altering what the Shardholder will do. Vin as Preservation managed to change and destroy things just fine and could still block Ruin's actions afterwards.

[Thought]

No one said that a shard's intent limits what type of actions a shard can do. Your Vin example probably exactly why no one suggested such a thing.

Rather, the discussion was on if some cognitive aspect limits the amount that can be done by a shard. Dyring supposed that it might be a bit like a faucet: only so much water can go through it at a time. My own suggestion was that a shard is a bit like an Awakener: it has a limited amount on what it can do at a given time, though it can dole out and recover that at any given time. Under such a supposition, splintering reduces the amount of attention that a shard is capable of bringing to a given activity, just as wakening a lot of weak strawmen reduces the total breaths an awakener has (and can pass on).

[name_here]

No one said that a shard's intent limits what type of actions a shard can do. Your Vin example probably exactly why no one suggested such a thing.

I don't think Odium actually created the Voidbringers because I don't think Odium CAN create.

It's actually a pretty common suggestion whenever Shard power comes up, and I've pretty much made it my personal mission to remind everyone about the counterexamples.

On reflection, he might have meant it is psychologically impossible for Odium to create, but I'm a bit dubious of that. Preservation arranged for lots of things to get destroyed in order to preserve things, and Ruin intentionally backed the creation of Steel Inquisitors and Koloss for Rashek to form the Final Empire with in order to destroy everything. I will, however, agree that creating things is not likely Odium's preferred method of problem-solving and he's probably locked less of his power into things he's created than any of the other Shards.

Anyways, Shards appear to need to give up some of their power to create permanent things. But I don't think they need to give up cognitive power necessarily. Preservation had to put his mind into Ruin's prison because he was locking away Ruin's mind but not sealing his power. Also, he didn't seem to need to give up parts of his mind to create humans, given that he managed to out-think Ruin prior to imprisoning him.

Edited September 28, 2012 by name_here