Eri Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 I'm posting it here, not in "Warbreaker", because it's more about Cosmere. I was wondering, why does Sanderson RAFO questions about Endownment's gender every time. Maybe he just likes to watch us wonder, but it may be because the answer is more complicated than we assume. Some possibilities we didn't consider or didn't consider enough: This Shard have been held by more than one person. I've seen a theory (sorry, but don't remember, who wrote that) that, because of his/her Intent, Endownment periodically gives the shard to... well... new Endownment. Problem: is it possible to willingly give one's Shard to other person? This Shard is held by more than one person (at the same time). Problem: we've seen one person with two Shards, but is it possible the other way around? This Shard is held by a kitten/unicorn/other non-human. Problems: I think Shards can be held by humans only. Humans seem quite spacial. Also—kittens have a gender. Not sure about unicorns. This Shard is held by a hermaphrodite or someone with no gender... in general by a single human, but their gender isn't easy to describe. Or s/he can switch gender sex (the Returned can shapechange, so it seems possible). Or it changes periodically. Or something like that. I assume the Shard is held by someone—it is said in Mistborn annotations somewhere than it's necessary. (I think that if it wasn't, it would Splinter, but that's just a theory) Questions to think about or ask: All questions I wrote as "problems", maybe except that one about unicorns. ;-) The Voice that Lightsong heard - was it male, female or hard to tell? The gender of the first Endownment. Is Endownment human (well... as human as other Shards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Graphic Audio's version of the book has Endowment being a male - at least according to the voice. Quite distinctly so too. Just adding that to your post, it's probably not encyclopedia lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeatherWriter Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 I just have to say it, Endowment is a girl in my mind. Not sure why, but that's the way it is. As for the technicalities, I'm pretty sure that you can give your shard away willingly. Even though Kelsier never truly held Preservation, he did sort of give it up when Vin took over. I like the idea that Endowment periodically switches hands. It feels like the longer you hold the shard, the more it's intent would shape you to give it away. I don't know that the person is new every time, it could be a few people switching back and forth between themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Ex Biotica Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Endowment switching people a lot makes a lot of sense to me, too, though I had never considered it prior to this Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 This Shard have been held by more than one person. I've seen a theory (sorry, but don't remember, who wrote that) that, because of his/her Intent, Endownment periodically gives the shard to... well... new Endownment. Problem: is it possible to willingly give one's Shard to other person? Why would Endowment need to switch Shardholders? I don't know why they would want to, intent will influence you no matter how new you are to the power. Even Rashek was in a preservative mode at the Well, and he held only a Sliver of Preservation. Did something in Warbreaker suggest that Endowment changes Shardholders, or is it just the fact that Brandon keeps RAFOing this question? Personally I think he might just be teasing us a little bit, Endowment always felt female to me but that's just my gut talking, I can't cite any evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Why would Endowment need to switch Shardholders? I don't know why they would want to, intent will influence you no matter how new you are to the power. Even Rashek was in a preservative mode at the Well, and he held only a Sliver of Preservation. Did something in Warbreaker suggest that Endowment changes Shardholders, or is it just the fact that Brandon keeps RAFOing this question? Personally I think he might just be teasing us a little bit, Endowment always felt female to me but that's just my gut talking, I can't cite any evidence. Because the Intent of Endowment is to give of ones self (like Breath), after sufficient time, Endowment would feel the need to give, give, give, keep giving... Until he/she has given everything. It seems to me that if there is a shard that would be able/willing to pass on their power voluntarily, it would be Endowment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) Because the Intent of Endowment is to give of ones self (like Breath), after sufficient time, Endowment would feel the need to give, give, give, keep giving... Until he/she has given everything. It seems to me that if there is a shard that would be able/willing to pass on their power voluntarily, it would be Endowment. While I agree that Endowment (or any other Shard really) could give up their powers, I don't think that Endowment is going to be driven to give itself away because Brandon said that Shards don't try to apply their intent to themselves. I got the quote by Brandon below from the Principe of Intent topic, so if you really want to find the original interview its from you should ask Chaos. 4) Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself. I think if its true for three other Shards it should hold true for Endowment as well Edited November 23, 2011 by Windrunner 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 While I agree that Endowment (or any other Shard really) could give up their powers, I don't think that Endowment is going to be driven to give itself away because Brandon said that Shards don't try to apply their intent to themselves. I got the quote by Brandon below from the Principe of Intent topic, so if you really want to find the original interview its from you should ask Chaos. I think if its true for three other Shards it should hold true for Endowment as well True, that's a good quote. And it occurs to me that there are good reasons why Endowment (or many other Shardholders) would not want to give up their power, namely that they have learned how to use it effectively and anybody they gave it to would not be able to handle it as easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 That quote came from the Reddit Q&A, by the way. I should also note that Brandon emphasized to me at Alloy, "Shards very rarely change hands". From this I don't think it is at all likely Endowment has switched persons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 That quote came from the Reddit Q&A, by the way. I should also note that Brandon emphasized to me at Alloy, "Shards very rarely change hands". From this I don't think it is at all likely Endowment has switched persons. That's a good quote. It makes sense; after all, we have exactly one documented case of the Shards changing hands, and evidence that some of the other Shards haven't changed hands (e.g. Hoid refers to the various Shardholders by name in his letter without any comment, suggesting that the individuals being referenced are the same as those at the splintering Hoid is referring to). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeatherWriter Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 What is the one case of Shards changing hands? Is it Kelsier handing off to Vin? Because I'm not sure that that would really count... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord Ruler Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 It's Preservation and Ruin,which both change hands on-screen(on-paper?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Seems to me he's probably RAFO'ing because Endowment's holder is dead. And similar to Aona...what's left of the shard is running on auto-pilot. Only one other time did we encounter a shard speaking in a vague voice and offering nothing else but a simple option, and it kills me to say it this way...but both cases are options in direct correlation with the principle intent of that shard. Any other time, interaction with a shard is a sentient interaction--even after Leras can no longer speak. Honor even had time to prepare something. Aona was killed, her shard splintered. But it's obviously still running on auto-pilot. i.e. the choice for the pain to end, the love and compassion that's left from the splintering of the shard. I think Endowment was killed. By Odium or otherwise. And is now running on auto-pilot, offering a simple choice for those ABLE to be propositioned. Auto-pilot could also loosely account for breath's and the relative early stages of beginning to understand Awakening. Though breath's are NOT splinters such as Divine Breath's, could be a side effect that the splintering released massive amounts of the power from Endowment--allowing anyone to 'endow'. Weak, I know. But really the only reason I can see Sanderson being coy about this particular question. He tells us things far more revealing all the time. *shrug* Seems to make sense to me. Edited January 20, 2012 by Elwynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 I do agree with you here that something interesting is going on here, but I don't think Endowment's dead. I think the most important part is Lightsong speaking with Endowment. Preservation, Aona, and Dominion, the three Shards that have had no holder haven't been able to communicate with anyone. I do agree that Honor set up those visions for Dalinar, but they seem different to me. Dalinar is just along for the ride, he can basically do nothing and the vision will unfold before him, and Honor will speak. But the most important difference is that Dalinar didn't have to do anything, while it seemed that Lightsong actually had a conversation, in which he was required to respond. Dalinar tried to talk to Honor but nothing happened, but Lightsong told Endowment he wanted to Return and he did. It seems to me that this is too complex for a mindless Shard to handle. Like Brandon said of Preservation, Endowment's Shard would understand it's tendency to give, but recognize that it was unable to act without a holder. If you want to see an alternate theory on why Awakening was just discovered, I'd be honored if you'd check out mine, over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 I do agree with you here that something interesting is going on here, but I don't think Endowment's dead. I think the most important part is Lightsong speaking with Endowment. Preservation, Aona, and Dominion, the three Shards that have had no holder haven't been able to communicate with anyone. I do agree that Honor set up those visions for Dalinar, but they seem different to me. Dalinar is just along for the ride, he can basically do nothing and the vision will unfold before him, and Honor will speak. But the most important difference is that Dalinar didn't have to do anything, while it seemed that Lightsong actually had a conversation, in which he was required to respond. Dalinar tried to talk to Honor but nothing happened, but Lightsong told Endowment he wanted to Return and he did. It seems to me that this is too complex for a mindless Shard to handle. Like Brandon said of Preservation, Endowment's Shard would understand it's tendency to give, but recognize that it was unable to act without a holder. Not sure where to begin with that. Lightsong didn't speak to Endowment...at least, not any more than someone in the pool in kae spoke to Aona. And we know Aona was dead at that point. Preservation communicated constantly. I'm not sure what made you say that. Leras was literally killing himself trying to communicate with Vin and Elend. Dominion I have no idea about...I'm not drawing a parallel to him. Both Aona and Endowment's interactions (that we've witnessed) are both described as nothing more than a calm and comforting voice offering a choice. That's the parallel I was describing. And since we know Aona was dead...it must have been what was left of her shard (or what was left of her shard in that state, i.e. liquid) running on auto-pilot. The similarity between the two interactions (and one we KNOW was running on auto-pilot)...as well as BS being so sly and full of smiles about questions concerning Endowment's gender is what led me to make the assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Sorry, I didn't really consider the Mist-Spirit, I haven't read that in a while. You kind of stumped me there but I might see one difference. Both Aona's Shard, and Endowment have splinters, the Divine Breath, and the Seons. However it appears that Seons required someone to create them, likely because their was no Shardholder. (even if there weren't Seons before Aona's death) There isn't any any human interaction necessary for someone to Return. It seems a little bit of a contrast but is by no means definitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Sorry, I didn't really consider the Mist-Spirit, I haven't read that in a while. You kind of stumped me there but I might see one difference. Both Aona's Shard, and Endowment have splinters, the Divine Breath, and the Seons. However it appears that Seons required someone to create them, likely because their was no Shardholder. (even if there weren't Seons before Aona's death) There isn't any any human interaction necessary for someone to Return. It seems a little bit of a contrast but is by no means definitive. That just backs up what I'm saying. Even more similarities between a shardic interaction we know has no current holder and one that is appearing more and more to have the same situation going on. If Divine Breath is a splinter--and splinters like on Sel are results of a shattered shards (don't think we've seen any besides those two). Then it's just more evidence for Endowment being dead. Your quote: "However it appears that Seons required someone to make them..." Is there evidence for that, or are you just throwing that out there? I've been away for a while and still trying to catch up on all the threads I've missed, so kind of important to what I'm thinking here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I was showing their differences, not similarities. They really don't seem the same at all to me. Divine Breath is mindless, it just reanimates someone dead, personality and skills remain the same. The Splinters of Aona's Shard have their own unique personalities, that have somehow been created, people just as complex as us, bound to humans through love. I don't think that Seons are created has been stated anywhere. It was just my assumption, using the best logic I could think of. The users of AonDor all die out, and the magical creatures that are tied to AonDor mysteriously stop being created. However I just had a new thought. The Elantrians were made sick through a damaged Aon. Maybe Seons are created by another Aon that also has to be fixed now. No one knows where this Aon is though, so it has yet to be repaired. This Aon would somehow give mindless chunks of Spiritual power a personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I've often wondered if Seons get at least part of their sentience from their owners, the way Syl gains sentience from being bonded with Kaladin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacemonkey Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I've often wondered if Seons get at least part of their sentience from their owners, the way Syl gains sentience from being bonded with Kaladin. Given that the Seons lost all ability to communicate or reason if their owners became Elantrians during the Reod era, this is probably at least partly correct. Edited January 21, 2012 by spacemonkey 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuaiir Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Have we actually confirmed that Seons are Splinters? For some reason I can't find the relevant quote, and that could throw a monkey wrench into this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Brbandon has said we are on the right track with the theory, which many believe is his coy way of confirming the theory without actually confirming it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CabbageHead Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 I was wondering, why does Sanderson RAFO questions about Endownment's gender every time. Maybe he just likes to watch us wonder, but it may be because the answer is more complicated than we assume. I would assume Endownment is more... well endowed... than normal people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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