Is Sazed Correct about people's growth?

[+Oltux72]

On 28.11.2022 at 7:00 PM, teknopathetic said:

If it can't be avoided, then you do not need the violent tech revolution Kelsier wants to artificially create.

Well, no. It still can be too slow.

On 28.11.2022 at 7:00 PM, teknopathetic said:

I mean, you could move to rapid industrialization like our world did, but without a counter balance with other things you get child labour workforces and people being locked inside factories and burning to death in fires. Or people having their jaws rot off from licking phosphorus matches. Think of all the true slavery or wage slavery, female poverty workers, animal extinctions, pollutions, cancers, human rights abuses, wealth gaps, etc etc. It isn't "neutral".The industrial revolution was utter destruction and cruelty for so many people. Sazed wanting to slow things down to prevent that occurring is very respectable in my view.

If you have a choice between that and an alien invasion destroying your civilization then your choice isn't good, but it is clear.

On 28.11.2022 at 7:00 PM, teknopathetic said:

Our planet had a magnificently fast and horrifically cruel industrialization, and I don't think we want to have Scadrial return to Skaa-like labour forces and the like. What Kelsier wants has consequences. Sazed has TWO future sight powers and a deep understanding of ruin; I think I will go with Sazed on what is good for humanity as a whole on this one. 

Their enemies have the same powers. And have managed to block his powers.

 

On 3.12.2022 at 6:07 PM, Letryx13 said:

And yet it’s that very advancement that turned them into a target of Autonomy the first place.

Yes, but that is the default. The idea that compromise is viable is kind of a luxury. In combat you usually do not have that. If I may give you an example:
Enemies are chasing you and you approach a chasm. Now you have two options. Either you run as fast as possible and jump, or you stop, gather your breath and fight. It is clear that in this case only the extremes are useful options.

Scadrial has gone on the path of uncontrolled technology. Restraining it was The Lord Ruler's option. He has been deposed. They need to deal with that.

On 3.12.2022 at 6:07 PM, Letryx13 said:

Besides, if Autonomy is sharing information about technology, and Sazed does the same, then it turns into an arms race, and that never ends well.

Debatable. So far, a nuclear war has not happened.

On 3.12.2022 at 6:07 PM, Letryx13 said:

Personally, I think he needs to encourage the advancement, perhaps a little more than he has, and try to reach out to other worlds to make allies. I’m fairly confident that Mistborn Era two happens before Stormlight Archives, so maybe try reaching out to Roashar or Sel. Prove to Autonomy that unity is superior. 

The point of allies is giving you capabilities you do not already have. Alliances would mean getting stuff they have not created themselves. That is the very goal.

18 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Most importantly, and my original point with this poll, if Harmony just gives them the knowledge, he actually weakens their growth. He talks about this in his conversation with Wax in Shadow of Law. He made the basin too perfect, which prevented people from advancing. Helping to encourage growth is fine, but just handing out things like that makes people reliant on it. And that prevents growth, since they believe they can just count on whoever handed out the resources to do so again. 

Yes and I think Kelsier's solution to that is imperialism to artificially create obstacles, if you will. Harmony sees that and opposes it for a reason. Yet Sazed is honest enough to admit that he is unsure whether Kelsier's way will not ultimately become necessary.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but that is the default. The idea that compromise is viable is kind of a luxury. In combat you usually do not have that. If I may give you an example:
Enemies are chasing you and you approach a chasm. Now you have two options. Either you run as fast as possible and jump, or you stop, gather your breath and fight. It is clear that in this case only the extremes are useful options.

Yes, but how the people of Scadrial choose to fight is important.  Relying on Harmony alone goes against the very ideas that Harmony has encouraged for centuries.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Debatable. So far, a nuclear war has not happened.

 The kind of explosive created by splitting Harmonium seems comparable to the kind of explosive power of nuclear weapons.  Combine that with the rocket technology Scadrial is close to developing, and something comparable to nuclear war is terrifyingly likely.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

The point of allies is giving you capabilities you do not already have. Alliances would mean getting stuff they have not created themselves. That is the very goal.

But there's a big difference between facing one powerful enemy and two or more.  To use a military maxim from Roshar, Shardbearers can't hold ground.  Besides, allying with worlds like Roshar or Sel could give Scadrial access to things that Autonomy doesn't have access to. Technology alone is less likely to achieve that.  

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes and I think Kelsier's solution to that is imperialism to artificially create obstacles, if you will. Harmony sees that and opposes it for a reason. Yet Sazed is honest enough to admit that he is unsure whether Kelsier's way will not ultimately become necessary.

Kelsier's judgement is more than a little suspect.  The actions of his agents on Roshar prove he doesn't pick people based on their character as much as he once did, or at least doesn't keep careful track of them. His goal might be to protect Scadrial but his methods are concerning. The Lord Ruler went through similar brutality to keep Scadrial safe, and look at the kind of villain he became, despite having honorable intentions by Sazed's admission.  Sazed even confront's Kelsier with that idea, by using the breeding programs as an example. 

[rabidhexley]

I would wholly agree with Sazed if there wasn't a mounting threat from off-world, which pushes me towards agreeing with Kelsier. The kink in this line-of-thinking is Sazed being aware of the potential consequences of meddling.

 

I don't really think there's an in between, I see it more as a lid you can't really put back on, if Harmony decides to contribute to Scadrial's technological growth I think he's making the decision for Humans and Shard to directly collaborate on their place in the Cosmere. Though who knows, Scadrial was barely progressed enough for Autonomy's agents to not completely crush them on tech, so maybe Sazed was already meddling just enough for them to be safe from incursion.

Edited December 20, 2022 by rabidhexley