Moving between heightenings

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Only 7 more hours in this book but I cant help asking some questions about the way the magic works.  

I have seen awakeners shifting between heightening's a few times and it appears once those breaths are used that pull you down a heightening you lose the gifts from that previous level until you gather the needed breaths again.  

We have seen the loss of stored age kill quickly... but I have a feeling that the 5th heightening must work differently than simply tapping metalminds... At the 5th heightening does it pause your age where you are?  So if you spent a hundred years holding just enough breaths to exist at the 5th heightening would spending some and dropping down to the 4th just resume your aging from that point?  Or would it leave you rapidly gaining age again?

In the case of returned it appears that those who know how to suppress divine breath still gain at least one benefit of it but in the opening of the book we see Vasher not having all of the benefits on the first 5 heightenings... aside from the whole immortal thing right?  I am quite confused by this one aspect of the magic and maybe it will all be answered in the final 3rd of the book but I am a bit antsy and a true sucker for spoilers (in fact I still refuse to watch the last season of one of my favorite shows, Chuck, because I got some spoilers and decided I wanted it to end at the end of season 4 in my mind at least... yes I am one of those).

[HSuperLee]

So, its kinda hard to answer all your questions without spoiling stuff, so just keep going.

One thing that's safe to answer is the rapid aging thing. And the truth is, we don't know, and last he was asked, Sanderson doesn't know.

 

Mistborn Final Empire Spoilers:

Spoiler

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Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

If a person held enough breath to attain the 5th heightening, lived for a thousand years, and then sold all but their initial breath, would their spiritual age force them to rapidly age as we saw with Rashek, or would they resume natural aging from the point at which they ceased?

Brandon Sanderson (written)

I think they would rapidly age.

But I'm not ready to say 100%.

General Signed Books 2018 (April 17, 2018)

 

Note though that this was 4 years ago, so things might have been settled by now.

Edited February 21, 2022 by HSuperLee

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:08 AM, HSuperLee said:

So, its kinda hard to answer all your questions without spoiling stuff, so just keep going.

One thing that's safe to answer is the rapid aging thing. And the truth is, we don't know, and last he was asked, Sanderson doesn't know.

 

Mistborn Final Empire Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Note though that this was 4 years ago, so things might have been settled by now.

Alright.  So now that I am done and through Warbreaker I have some further questions and ideas.  

For someone returned, like Vasher, who is capable of suppressing his divine breath does he actually get treated fully as a drab?  When we see him in the prison at the beginning was his lifesense and aura recognition all traded out for his ability to suppress his breath?   Or can he straight up hide the divine breath and keep the benefit of the first 5 heightenings?   I guess if it were possible to keep the benefits of the heightening while suppressing breath then Denth should have been able to sense both Vivenna and Vasher when Vasher kidnapped her right?  

That also leaves me confused by my question about the ageless thing... if suppressing your breath eliminates your other benefits how have Denth and Vasher not died of old age yet?  

Also is there anything said about the upper limits of the strength of awakened objects?   Does it come down to how much the rope would naturally hold until it breaks or does the breath add strength to a material.   For instance if a sheet were to wrap someone up who didn't have a knife.  Would the persons only hope of escape be to gain the strength to rip the fabric itself or could they break the hold of the material without destroying it?  

[cometaryorbit]

Vasher with suppressed Divine Breath doesn't get the benefits of the First through Fifth Heightening (life sense, aura recognition, perfect pitch, etc.) but he's still a Returned thus doesn't age. Also, he isn't going to be even a pseudo-Drab for long, as he still needs a Breath every week, even with his Divine Breath suppressed.

I believe the Annotations say that, similarly, Denth's (necessarily brief) 'Drab' experiences weren't as severe as being a true Drab. (He would lack the benefits of Breath, but presumably being a Returned would mean he wouldn't get e.g. the lowered immune system problems a Nalthian-human Drab has.)

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

38 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Vasher with suppressed Divine Breath doesn't get the benefits of the First through Fifth Heightening (life sense, aura recognition, perfect pitch, etc.) but he's still a Returned thus doesn't age. Also, he isn't going to be even a pseudo-Drab for long, as he still needs a Breath every week, even with his Divine Breath suppressed.

I believe the Annotations say that, similarly, Denth's (necessarily brief) 'Drab' experiences weren't as severe as being a true Drab. (He would lack the benefits of Breath, but presumably being a Returned would mean he wouldn't get e.g. the lowered immune system problems a Nalthian-human Drab has.)

I must have mistakenly thought the returned gaining the 5th heightening was why they were immortal minus their need for a breath each week.   

So being returned brings with it all of the benefits of the 5th heightening without needing to have the other 4 heightening actitive via suppressing your breath.   I figured if you were suppressing your divine breath you wouldn't have gained the benefits of a higher heightening while simultaneously losing all the benefits of the lower 4.   But if being returned makes you unaging as a separate thing from the heightening itself then that makes more sense...

I guess my question would then be why do they word it as gaining the benefits of the first 5 heightenings instead of it being the first 4 with immortality (assuming you get your breath each week)?  

 

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I must have mistakenly thought the returned gaining the 5th heightening was why they were immortal minus their need for a breath each week.   

So being returned brings with it all of the benefits of the 5th heightening without needing to have the other 4 heightening actitive via suppressing your breath.

Well, Returned are Cognitive Shadows "stapled" to a reanimated body via Divine Breath (a Splinter of Endowment).

I honestly don't know if they get all the benefits of the Fifth Heightening with Divine Breath suppressed - it's not clear to me exactly how much of "perfect health" a Returned body would keep without the Fifth Heightening - but their not aging I think is just because they're a Cognitive Shadow.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well, Returned are Cognitive Shadows "stapled" to a reanimated body via Divine Breath (a Splinter of Endowment).

I honestly don't know if they get all the benefits of the Fifth Heightening with Divine Breath suppressed - it's not clear to me exactly how much of "perfect health" a Returned body would keep without the Fifth Heightening - but their not aging I think is just because they're a Cognitive Shadow.

This makes much more sense.  Thanks. 

[Duxredux]

A couple of months late, but I have a theory on this, but it's probably tenuous. Spoiler for the end of the book, but you've had 2 months to read it.

Spoiler

Vasher says that the appearance of the Returned is based on how they perceive themselves. I've wondered if his ability to change from a human form to a Returned form and back again is related to this. If he can alter his Cognitive perception of how he should look or operate and this changes his physical form, his change in appearance and apparent Heightening may be a function of how he manipulates his perception of himself and less a suppression of his Divine Breath reverting him to the state of a normal human. If he thought he should age, maybe he would. Vivenna even wonders about how Vasher perceives himself as this scruffy guy. 

 

The explanation that the agelessness is part of being a Cognitive Shadow does make sense though.

[Treamayne]

Also (at least from what we currenlty know) supressing the divine breath is, well, surpressing  the expressions of that breath's effects in the physical realm (senses, etc). Agelessness would be an effect in the spiritual realm expressed on the spirit web. We also know that the health and agelessness benefits are not a "line in the sand" but a gradual build-up to a theoretical maximum benefit (as explained in the Ars Arcanum - note four):

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Each additional Breath grants some things, no matter which Heightening an Awakener has achieved. The more breath one has, the more resistant to disease and aging a person is, the easier it is for them to distinguish colors, the more naturally they can learn to Awaken, and the stronger their life sense.

Dawnshard Spoilers:

Spoiler

  We also know that the heightening effects are not exclusive to Nalthis and Awakening, since Rysn expresses heightening-like effects from becoming the Dawnshard. Which also implies that the heightenings granted by the Divine breath are not necessarily the same as those granted by the the accumulation of breath normal for Awakeners.

  Its possible that the divine breath is just "powerful enough" to grant a heightening-like effect the same way the Dawnshard does; which would exlpain why Vasher/Zahel still doesn't understand his own state of existance as well as he would like despite knowing a lot about heightenings granted from accumulated breath from his time as one of the five scholars. 

Just because the effects of accumulated breath and divine breath are similiar does not mean that the Nalthians aren't wrong in assuming the effects are the same. . . 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Treamayne
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