Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) The Shin people of Roshar are always described as having "large eyes, like a baby." I have always taken this to mean that their eyes are unnaturally large - a quality we don't see on Earth, like Herdazian fingernails or the blue skin of Natanatan. However, I have started to think that Brandon actually might intend for Shin people to have typical, round, Caucasian eyes, while everyone else on Roshar has smaller, narrow eyes - like Asian people (I hope that's not racist somehow, it's just something I've honestly wondered while reading the book). There are two moments in OB that made me come up with this idea. First, when Dalinar encounters Odium for the first time, in Chapter 56, on page 547 in the hardcover version. Quote "Dalinar jumped, scrambling backward. The man was old, with a wide, furrowed face and bone-white hair that swept back from his head as if blown by wind. Thick mustaches with a hint of black in them blended into a short white beard. He seemed to be Shin, judging by his skin and eyes, and he wore a golden crown in his powdery hair." And then later, when Kaladin encounters the Elantrian in Shademsar, in Chapter 97 on page 908. Quote "Inside, he saw an old Shin man - with furrowed, wrinkled skin and a completely bald head - sitting in a chair, reading by spherelight." Now, having both Odium and an Elantrian described as "Shin" makes me immediately question that the Shin people have abnormally large eyes - because then I imagine Odium with big, baby eyes, and that really doesn't fit the image for me. I also think it's very unlikely that Rayse/Odium and this random guy from Sel have any sort of common ancestry that would account for them both looking Shin. Instead it makes me wonder if the majority of people in the cosmere have round, Caucasian eyes, except for the people on Roshar, who have smaller, East Asian eyes, so that whenever they see a non-Rosharan they immediately label them as Shin because of their eyes. This theory doesn't totally make sense, because there have been several worldhoppers - Hoid, Vivenna, Vasher - who are not mentioned as having Shin eyes. However, I think it's still definitely something to consider, and it might be a clue about the lineage of the Rosharan people and how their bloodlines changed after they expanded from Shinovar. Edited December 9, 2017 by Llarimar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raykoda Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) Here we have the #1 thing I think preventing SA from getting filmed. No Rosharan ethnicity has a on-to-one correspondence with earth ethnicities. Some may line up better (Shin to Caucasian), but some are just weird (Alethi, as you mentioned). Some WoB's of note: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120-warsaw-signing/#e7912 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131-general-reddit-2016/#e3932 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/162-steelheart-portland-signing/#e2985 TL;DR: Sorta. Edited December 9, 2017 by Raykoda 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Raykoda said: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120-warsaw-signing/#e7912 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131-general-reddit-2016/#e3932 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/162-steelheart-portland-signing/#e2985 It makes a lot of sense that Brandon pictures Rosharans as Asian-Arab, or Asian-Polynesian, based on how he describes the characters in the books. I hesitated to use the words Asian or Caucasian when I posted this, because I can that the Rosharans don't nicely correspond to any ethnicities on earth, and these comments by Brandon really help to confirm that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbonationspren Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 27 minutes ago, Llarimar said: This theory doesn't totally make sense, because there have been several worldhoppers - Hoid, Vivenna, Vasher - who are not mentioned as having Shin eyes. However, I think it's still definitely something to consider, and it might be a clue about the lineage of the Rosharan people and how their bloodlines changed after they expanded from Shinovar. As far as Hoid, Vivenna and Vasher go, they all have confirmed appearance-changing abilities. Hoid has Yolish (and now Rosharan) Lightweaving, in addition to whatever else he knows. Vivenna and Vasher are both Returned/have Returned blood, so they can change some of their appearance at will (like the Royal Locks on steroids). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raykoda Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 Also, absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analyticaposteriori Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 It's pretty clear that it's a giant mix with no actual corresponding ethnicities on Earth. There is always some little quirk that makes these people just off and Brandon himself doesn't really seem to have a clear idea either - for example he first says that he pictures Alethi as Arab-East Asian but then mentions Indians in the next sentence (which in itself tells you nothing since India's an incredible diverse country where you can find people who could pass as natives of pretty much every other place on Earth). But then the Alethi are also all tall while the average male height in India is like 5'5... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 18 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said: But then the Alethi are also all tall while the average male height in India is like 5'5... And there are also many "lighteyes" in Alethkar, while you obviously wouldn't see people with blue or green eyes very often in India, or any of the other places Brandon mentioned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Llarimar said: The Shin people of Roshar are always described as having "large eyes, like a baby." I have always taken this to mean that their eyes are unnaturally large - a quality we don't see on Earth, like Herdazian fingernails or the blue skin of Natanatan. Graves' Disease (thankfully this is not the case, it would be pretty sad if everyone in Shinovar was suffering from an overactive thyroid gland) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywatch Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 They're not Asian in the sense that they're from Asia - and certainly no one in his books is from Earth and is going to have an ethnicity that we point to and go, "Aha! You look exactly like [insert nationality/ethnicity here]!" It's never going to be a 1:1 correlation. That said, everyone on Roshar except for the Shin do have epicanthal folds and the Alethi have that and are brown - I imagine that's where Brandon is drawing the Arab/Asian connection. (And I mean, not for nothing, but India is considered Asia too by a large majority of the world.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 22 minutes ago, Ookla the Grey said: They're not Asian in the sense that they're from Asia - and certainly no one in his books is from Earth and is going to have an ethnicity that we point to and go, "Aha! You look exactly like [insert nationality/ethnicity here]!" It's never going to be a 1:1 correlation. That said, everyone on Roshar except for the Shin do have epicanthal folds and the Alethi have that and are brown - I imagine that's where Brandon is drawing the Arab/Asian connection. (And I mean, not for nothing, but India is considered Asia too by a large majority of the world.) Yes, I realize they're not Asian as in being from Asia - I'm just trying to correlate their description to ethnicities we're familiar with on Earth. I had assumed at first that the Alethi had an Arab complexion, which is why it surprised me that they also have epicanthic folds since we don't typically associate that with Arab people. I understand that Brandon isn't trying to make a 1:1 correlation between Rosharan and Earth ethnicities, but I think that most fantasy authors do have an ethnicity in mind when they make a race of people (Brandon is of course not "most fantasy authors," but I still feel like he has an idea for what these people look like and I think it'd be interesting to see what ethnicities he sees them as vaguely correlating with on Earth). And yes, India is a part of Asia - I think perhaps East Asian is a better way to express what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 This thread is strangely elucidating and strangely confusing. I've read WoBs that Shin are said to have large eyes because they lack the epicanthic fold, but then there are WoBs referenced in this thread that say that Shin would be the most obviously Caucasian race on Roshar. I'm left with the feeling that I've learned something but forgotten something at the same time. I think this is one of those times where subjective interpretation should reign supreme, because it seems like even Brandon has a hard time pinning down what the ethnicities on Roshar should look like (or maybe I am just being obtuse). Honestly, I always pictured the Shin looking like bald hobbits with big eyes, but imagination is a nation unto itself, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywatch Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: This thread is strangely elucidating and strangely confusing. I've read WoBs that Shin are said to have large eyes because they lack the epicanthic fold, but then there are WoBs referenced in this thread that say that Shin would be the most obviously Caucasian race on Roshar. Both things are true. Caucasian folks - or, you know, just white people, do lack the epicanthal fold, and thus, look "bigger". But looking the most like a white person doesn't mean that the Shin would look white to us - just moreso than any other race on Roshar. Here's the relevant WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4079 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aemetha Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 This might help you visualise the Shin properly. You're welcome . 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: I'm left with the feeling that I've learned something but forgotten something at the same time. I think this is one of those times where subjective interpretation should reign supreme, because it seems like even Brandon has a hard time pinning down what the ethnicities on Roshar should look like (or maybe I am just being obtuse). Honestly, I always pictured the Shin looking like bald hobbits with big eyes, but imagination is a nation unto itself, right? I agree with you - there's definitely not one "correct" way to envision the Alethi and the people of Roshar, especially since Brandon himself has a hard time describing them. And I have likewise always pictured the Shin as looking like bald hobbits with big eyes, and also short of stature with sort of olive-yellow complexions - in other words not Caucasian, so it's surprising for me to hear that Brandon considers them the "most Caucasian" race of Roshar. As a sidenote, (this was mentioned earlier), I wonder what actors they would cast if they developed Stormlight into a movie. I'm guessing that the crazy complex worldbuilding and the magic system of Roshar have been the main hindrances with developing Stormlight, but I wonder if the casting problem is also one of the reasons. I hope that they wouldn't just cast all of the Alethi as white, but then what ethnicity would they alternatively choose? I think it would be really cool if they found all Arab actors for the Way of Kings, or all Indian actors - whichever it is, they should try to stay consistent in correlating certain ethnicities with certain races on Roshar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, aemetha said: This might help you visualise the Shin properly. You're welcome . Holy crap, that's funny! I always thought they looked like this: But in all seriousness, I say this with a grave and serious tone, you have not found anything funnier in this Cosmere or any other than this (my shameless plug for more people to look at Stormlight the Musical (especially Szeth's New Knife sung to the tune of Mack the Knife)): Holy crap, you'll laugh, you'll cry and you won't even have to kiss 3 bucks goodbye. Edited December 9, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Llarimar said: As a sidenote, (this was mentioned earlier), I wonder what actors they would cast if they developed Stormlight into a movie. I'm guessing that the crazy complex worldbuilding and the magic system of Roshar have been the main hindrances with developing Stormlight, but I wonder if the casting problem is also one of the reasons. I hope that they wouldn't just cast all of the Alethi as white, but then what ethnicity would they alternatively choose? I think it would be really cool if they found all Arab actors for the Way of Kings, or all Indian actors - whichever it is, they should try to stay consistent in correlating certain ethnicities with certain races on Roshar. Here's my take on the Szeth, given his amazing detective skills in OB, that I posted on another thread: *Edited* I would love to see a Bollywood musical of Stormlight Archives!!! Edited December 9, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Here's my take on the Szeth, given his amazing detective skills in OB, that I posted on another thread: Haha, that's great. I'm kind of sad that Szeth actually just has normal Caucasian eyes - I sort of liked the idea of him having big baby eyes - I though it was a great element for an assassin character to look innocent and nonthreatening instead of menacing and violent. Edited December 9, 2017 by Llarimar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 I totally agree, this whole thread has kind of ruined the Shin for me. Short bald Caucasians just aren't as interesting as large eyed bald hobbits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eizweir Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 Ken Watanabe is a popular fan-cast for Dalinar, both by Reddit and a Tor blog post from a while back. At a release event I remember Brandon saying he once went through a book of headshots just to get a clearer real-life image of Kaladin in his head, and the model he felt was closest had very mixed ethnic ancestry. But essentially the Alethi look like an amalgamation of everything between, and including, Egypt and Korea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 \ 3 minutes ago, Eizweir said: Ken Watanabe is a popular fan-cast for Dalinar, both by Reddit and a Tor blog post from a while back. Ok, I personally think that Jürgen Prochnow (Duke Leo Atreides from David Lynch's Dune) IS DALINAR KHOLIN (he's absolutely who I imagine), if we are going with an asian cast I would suggest the modern day equivalent of Toshiro Mufane: Dalinar doens't have to be any particular race, but he does have to be AWESOME! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) There are a goodly number of Asians with tanned skin. Actually I'm one of them. I could probably cosplay as Navani without too much trouble (other than being short, and not as beautiful). I have a lot of cousins who would probably look Alethi, as well. Jason Scott Lee has matured rather nicely, for instance. Add a little make up and I could see Choi Siwon as Kaladin (The eyes) John Cho would make an adorable Adolin Oh oh better idea. Chow Yun Fat as Dalinar! Edited December 9, 2017 by RShara 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, RShara said: And a little make up and I could see Choi Siwon as Kaladin (The eyes) He would be a perfect Kaladin, just based on that picture. And maybe Prince Zuko/Rufio (Dante Basco) could play one of the bridgemen, like Lopen or Skar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 I could see him playing a bridgeman, yeah. I think he looks a bit too beefed up to be Lopen (isn't Lopen skinny?), but Skar or one of the others would totally work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarimar Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, RShara said: John Cho would make an adorable Adolin This is perfect. If they decide to develop Stormlight with an East Asian cast, everyone should campaign for this. Although he might be too old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, RShara said: Oh oh better idea. Chow Yun Fat as Dalinar! Well, if it's not going to be Toshiro Mifune, then HOLY CRAP, Chow Yun Fat is the best Asian Dalinar you could have!!! Totally upvote that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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