[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

53 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Annoyingly I can't find the original WoB but this kind one kind of references it:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e4826

I'll keep looking and try to remember to edit this post with it when I post it (i'll tag you again)

I don’t remember seeing more than this either, and that it was a “unconscious” thing, though he seems to have run with it in OB with our long description of how hot Jasnah is 

My search for another WoB on this point  led me to an awesome new one! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e3995

First, who is our asexual B4 character? Sigzil?

Quote

But in the case of Bridge Four, it's more about the fact that the guys just haven't had time to start many relationships. It's only been a few months, in-world time, between thinking they were doomed to having respectable jobs. Give the fellows some time. Most of the guys, gay or straight, are looking. (Excluding the married ones and the asexual one.)

Also, my insane happiness that I have author approval to insert all the premarital sex I want into the books! (Well unless it’s not allowed in-world, i.e. Vorinism says it’s an absolute no.)

Quote

By way of conversation, you might enjoy a story from when I was writing the second Mistborn novel. My editor called me one day, and said, "All right. I can't figure it out. Are Vin and Elend having sex or not?" I said, "Of course they are. They've been together for over a year at this point." His response was, "Well, why not say so?"

It was the first chance I had to vocalize something that I hadn't even really figured out myself--something that just felt like the right way to tell my stories. I explained that there were many readers, like my sister, who wanted to be able to pretend that the male lead and female lead in the story were going to do things the way she wanted them to, with a level of chastity that made no sense in the culture. There were other readers who would want to imagine wild Allomancer sex happening every night.

WoB on boring Vorinism: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e1443

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

First, who is our asexual B4 character? Sigzil?

Rlain surely? - the Listeners don't have sexual feelings except in Mateform afaik.

And who doesn't want to imagine wild allomancer sex happening every night?

I just want to know why I can't imagine it in the day too

*Shhhh Phin, you're drunk*

[Lightblessed]

Oh my God! The latter half of this thread is Gold!!

My thoughts about Shallan's character were put to word here precisely. Also that analysis by @PhineasGage was so well done that words spilled out of my hands about the beauty of the chasm sequence.

Just wanted to share it with all the S.S Shalladin's crew here

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Stumbling along the path of certain death,
Hefting the burden of each soul's breath;
Alleviating the augmenting apprehension of the approaching fright,
Lifting the listless languor of the brooding Knight;

Ascending the unclaimed heights of endless sight,
Defending the refulgent Radiant, the winds' delight;
Impaled by the searing splendor of the broken smile,
Nonplussed by the surge of sensations, a neverending file;

United and Estranged.

 

Keep up the good work guys. I hope I don't sound like a child with its first toy but the discussions and debates were extra ordinary.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Lightblessed

[PhineasGage]

@Lightblessed I am honestly so touched that you enjoyed my analysis so much that you could turn it into truly beautiful poetry. I know it ultimately came down to Sanderson's writing but I am so glad to have played a tiny part in your creativity!

With your permission, I would love to add this to the addenda for my essay when I get round to it? Would that be ok?

[Dreamstorm]

18 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Rlain surely? - the Listeners don't have sexual feelings except in Mateform afaik.

And who doesn't want to imagine wild allomancer sex happening every night?

I just want to know why I can't imagine it in the day too

*Shhhh Phin, you're drunk*

Oh, duh. Here I go, just like Rlain fears, discounting him as a member of Bridge Four 

Day, night, highstorm, everstorm... I’m taking as all WoB approved 

[Lightblessed]

@PhineasGage I would be glad if even some of my words find a place in your essay. I'm so happy you found it as a beautiful poetry

Honestly I am just obsessed about Shalladin

Edited December 9, 2017 by Lightblessed

[maxal]

14 hours ago, aemetha said:

And again, we have you misrepresenting what I said by applying it plural to a pattern of behaviour instead of the singular instance of behaviour that was described. I have clarified this on multiple occasions, and yet every time I open one of your comments in this thread you are doing it again. I don't know what else you have experienced here, but I can assure you, I never held any malice against you for your arguments. We can't have a discussion if everyone agrees on everything. I do take issue with you repeatedly misrepresenting what I said though - that's dishonest.

And you are misrepresenting my counter-argument. I am trying, perhaps badly or with the wrong choice of words, to explain how trying to read more of Adolin into the few written scenes he has is most likely not going to lead to much. What matters when trying to interpret those scenes is to keep in mind the author's intend and his intend is not to write Adolin off as a sociopath nor to give him sociopath tendencies nor to make the murder highlight a side of Adolin which would be negative.

As such, Adolin not feeling grief nor guilt towards murdering Sadeas is not a sociopath behavior, it is just him thinking he did what needed to be done. Adolin has repetitively act within similar ways all across both books: as soon as he believes an action is justified, he won't waste time second guessing himself nor thinking he made a mistake. He'll just move on and this is what we read. Adolin convincing himself he did the right thing and, as thus, moving on. Yes, readers thought more would happen, but the author didn't plan his character this way, he planned Adolin as a very pragmatic man: he killed Sadeas because he was threatening his family. Period. No need to get all emotional over it. He is a career hardened soldier, many career hardened soldiers will kill and not feel much emotions afterwards because they did their work. Adolin feels he did his work.

My point is thus no need to read more into it. This event is not going to open an abyss under Adolin: no one cares he did it. Shallan had no reaction, Dalinar doesn't care. Brandon will not write more unto the murder. If he had plans to capitalize on his own cliff-hanger, then he would have use it in OB, he wouldn't have waited another book down the road to recycle the story arc.

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't think this is resolved because they get sidetracked by deciding who will be king and then Shallan pushing for Jasnah to take the throne. Dalinar is horrified when he finds out. He isn't about to go and make a proclamation because he needs to protect Adolin from the fall-out. We see a week gap between Dalinar finding out and the wedding but the announcement isn't made and I don't think it is going to be - which frankly is a political mistake (you should reveal things asap to prevent them leaking out and being used by your political enemies). This means someone else can find out the secret and use it against Adolin in some way. Blackmail, undermining his political power, his trial/execution etc. There are loads of possible ways this could go. Dalinar's view of Adolin is now very different as well. He specifically thinks that "Adolin [isn't] the man he thought he was". He still loves his son, but he genuonely thought Adolin was steady and a better man than Dalinar is. Now he knows Adolin is neither of these things - or at least is not them all the time. Dalinar doesn't trust himself. Its a constant recurring theme. Now he may not trust Adolin either. We may see his behavior gradually change over the time-skip. Even if Dalinar manages to get over it (not sure how - I mean it isn't something most parents can just brush aside - even while they still love their kids) it doesn't mean that there aren't many other people who wouldn't try to profit from the situation. What about the Skybreakers? I can't see Szeth loving this fact for example. The Ghostbloods want to make a play of some sort for power and this kind of secret could be huge. If they find out they could use it as further leverage over Shallan and Adolin. I mean, they may need to blackmail them to force Shallan to deal with Sja-Anat which seems likely to happen in SA4 rather than in the timeskip. 

Lastly - of course such a statement would be damaging. It would suggest that Dalinar ordered Adolin to kill his political opponent. The truth wouldn't even matter then - people would worry (with good reason) that the Blackthorn was re-emerging and that he was prepared to do anything to seize power -including using his son as an assassin.

I quite frankly wouldn't describe Dalinar's reaction as horrified: I have seen rocks have stronger reactions to bad news. He was moderately angry, but mostly annoyed, but certainly not horrified. He was more bothered by the idea Adolin didn't see fit to tell him more than him actually killing a Highprince. Dalinar also says he would make a proclamation and a public statement, but didn't think this would prevent him from crowning Adolin. Nobody, including Adolin himself, seems to think the truth might be dangerous for Adolin's safety. If Adolin was in any danger of getting trialed for it, then surely someone would have voice concerns, but no one did. Adolin is well above the law: no one will dare attack a Kholin, so at worst, the event is damaging for the Kholin's reputation. Nothing more.

Obviously, whether or not the statement was made is unclear in the end. Granted, they might have been waiting to figure out how best to voice it, they might have also thought it should wait until after the wedding. 

I don't see how blackmailing would be an interesting avenue to explore. The story made it clear Adolin would suffer no consequences, there are no one left to trial nor accuse him and he just sits well above the law as a Highprince. This isn't a fact which will hold over Adolin's head because, as Dalinar put it, everyone broke the code at one time or another. We've been there before, trying to find how the event could be used against Adolin, but OB was very clear on the matter: the event is not relevant enough.

Dalinar's view of Adolin remains relatively the same: he said one very lighthearted comment which he literally shrugged off the idea Adolin murdered Sadeas. This one quote, just by itself, will not fuel a story arc: it was too meaningless within the entire book. Had Dalinar have a reaction, had he really thought about it, then yeah, I'd argue it could be it, but this one quote? Are we really going to built up expectations for the future over this little? I sure won't. I built a great future over a great many more facts and clues, it crumbled in OB. Not going back there. I would also argue Dalinar doesn't love Adolin. He loved him as a boy, but the hate he felt while he grew up due to his strong resemblance to his mother likely distorted his relationship with his son. I never read much love when it comes to Dalinar towards Adolin, I certainly do not read love right here in the end of OB. I read love when he refers to Renarin which is likely him compensating for having literally ignored his younger son for, well, most of his life. Adolin always seemed to be the sore spot: the boy born to be the greater man, the boy he loved, but shut out as he grew up too much like Evi. He then became a tool to his father which both father and son were happy for. There has always been several scenarios to be written on those premises, but then again, Brandon will most likely never write those. Adolin is just not an important enough character for this to happen.

I can't say about the Ghostblood not the Skybreakers, we do not know enough about them to figure out what their end game might be. I wouldn't feat Szeth however as he made his second oath to obey to Dalinar's law and, by Dalinar's law, Adolin is exonerated. The other Skybreakers may not care enough about Adolin to bring him to justice, this would require his character to narrative in a way he just isn't. 

I think if the statement were to be damaging, then the characters would have expressed reasons to believe it might. They didn't, hence they all feel the affair can be contained without too much pain.

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I disagree with this so entirely. Brandon uses minor plots all the time and has them drag through under the radar. Mistborn is literally filled with minor plots that seem to go slowly/be dropped then randomly appear later on and prove to be significant. 

This is by no means a complete list, it is just a few threads I could come up with quickly to make my point. Storms he even has scenes that are reflected in each of the three books. The difference between Mistborn and SA is that the first Mistborn trilogy is complete so we can see the threads tie up. 

Brandon uses minor plots, minor elements which foreshadows greater ones to come, this is true, but he does not systematically do it.

And, as many readers will explain, Brandon did use the Sadeas murder. It did have consequences. It caused Amaram to be named Highprince which, in turn, caused him to fall to his weakness. It caused the Sadeas army to defect and it contributed to the final Kaladin/Amaram's encounter. It offer visibility on how Odium works to make his Champions, how he twists the mind of the weak, how he uses other people's pain, offers to take it away, to give them justification and salvation in exchange for their soul. It also showed how Adolin was immune to it as he doesn't need any of it. Therefore, there were ramifications, just none which touched Adolin's character which is essentially what some readers are complaining about.

In terms of a narrative, Sadeas's death is over. It was explored. It was used. It has no other purpose and just because we can figure out a few additional ones does not mean Brandon will go back to it. I need to again go back to the basis: Adolin is not an important character. Brandon will not write an Adolin focused story arc nor will he write more than what he did. 

This arc is done and gone.

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So I had a look for som WoBs on this and I'll quote them below - these are from https://wob.coppermind.net/basic_search/?query=adolin the search I did and all come from BS.

Well, you aren't going to find an Adolin related WoB I have read. I also have some which never made their ways to the official channels. Two of the WoB you have quoted are issued from the Oathbringer pre-release discussion and they were asked by a reader worried over the OB plan not giving much room for Adolin. Brandon's response was he didn't consider a character needed viewpoint to have a strong presence, he though "no viewpoints" could enhance a character and he felt Adolin's character developed into an interesting and unexpected way compared to the original plan. All of those things he said in relation to OB which we now read.

Brandon and I have very different opinions on a great many things. 

I really do not think not giving Adolin viewpoints until chapter 83 enhanced his character: I thought it made him insignificant and incoherent. I thought Adolin's story arc was disjointed and did not built up on the early chapters. I felt there was a break in tone with him and things brought up early on just vanished into thin air. As thus, if Brandon considers this is both interesting and enhanced, then I have to disagree with him. Just the fact I know these are Brandon's opinion on the character is what prompts me to say he won't write him better in a future book. Brandon doesn't think he wrote Adolin poorly, he thought he did a good job with the character.

The unexpected likely refers to Maya which was great, but without a story arc to go with it, it will become a moot point.

The ramifications, we had them. They just weren't what we expected. He won't write additional ones because part of his readership didn't like his first trial.

I don't know if you read WoK Prime, but Adolin was an insipid uninteresting character in it, so improvement from this first draft weren't hard to achieve. Mind, I love how Brandon had started to write Adolin in WoK/WoR, but the dropped the ball in OB.

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So that last one completely refutes the idea that it is going to be dropped. That was from 2014 but just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. If there is a WoB that shows nothing will happen that is more recent then we can consider it done as a plot, but as far as I could find, there is nothing more recent that refutes this statement. For one thing, we haven't seen any character react extremely negatively to it yet.

I wasn't dropped, it was dealt with. The fact we don't think it was satisfying bears no relevance. Brandon thought it was satisfying. He will not re-write the book on the behalf of a few discontent fans. Still, I'd love the opportunity to challenge him on it, but the answers would most likely be very boring. I honestly do not see Brandon ever admitting the arc was dealt with in an unsatisfying way. 

There is a WoB which more or less give up OB's plot: Dalinar never finds out until it is so late he has no reaction. Had he known early on, he might have reacted, but by the time he does find out, so much has happened it was not relevant anymore.

Brandon said there would be people to think what he did was totally, totally, totally (the emphasis was Brandon's not mine) wrong. He never said we would read it in the book just some people would disagree. He never promised this would be a plot point.

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I didn't say "personal" I said "vengeance". Adolin, as you pointed out, identifies with his House. He was acting to gain revenge for his House. And he did so when he was "irrevocably" enraged - apart from a tiny part of him that was "amused". Amused? I mean that, if nothing else, is sociopathic. No matter how much you hate someone, the act of murder is not amusing . 

Revenge, be it personal nor for his house, did not once cross his mind. He just wanted a living thread to be exterminated. My thoughts on the scene have always been Adolin snapped and went into blood rage, which is a protection mechanism humans have which can be triggered if their safety is threatened too hard. This is why it feels like there is two Adolin, one which is horrified and one which is amused. The horrified one is Adolin realizing he is doing something awful, the amused one is the one who's pleased by his actions. Arguably, Adolin later rationalized he was right to murder Sadeas, hence no more reactions are seen from him. I don't think it was sociopathic because of the context and of whom Sadeas was, had it been someone else, then yeah, we could discuss it, had it been another character but Adolin, yeah too, we might discuss, but this is Adolin.

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

Not to mention Ialai Sadeas, the woman everyone seems to forget. She's been sent away from Urithiru in disgrace and was obviously very stricken with grief that her husband was killed. She has lost everything and nothing more to lose, who knows what she'll do if she finds out Adolin killed Torol.

You really honestly think Brandon will use Ialai again? Brandon will not go back to internal Alethi affairs, especially not Adolin is the Highprince. He's above the law now.

5 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

@maxal you may take this the wrong way, but where you are with Adolin's character development is pretty similar to how a lot of us felt about the love triangle resolution; there was so much there and why, why, why didn't Brandon use it when he was the one who wrote it in the first place?!?  I think a lot of us have sorted through our feelings (50+ pages of feelings, so many feelings) and basically come to the conclusion that, it's not over.  This is the absolute middle book of the 5-book arc, so there is a lot of story left to tell.  I personally think the reason Adolin's arc didn't progress is because it is very tied to Shallan's romantic arc; in fact both of them are stuck in the same place as they were in WoR (Sadeas is dead, not much came of it besides the reveals to Shallan and Dalianar which could have happened in the first chapter of OB to be honest; Shallan is still with Adolin and Kaladin still feels like it's not his place to be in the middle, the only thing which came of it was betrothal turned into marriage and we now have plenty of confirmation that Shallan (via Veil) has feelings for Kaladin, whereas that was not so explicit in WoR.)  So, I think we will see major shifts on both these fronts in the next book, possibly primarily because we will see major developments for Adolin.  One thing I noticed in your post is that in order to deal with your grief over Adolin not doing much (I'm using grief because going through the stages of grief was much referenced on this thread in terms of the love triangle resolution), you are thinking of things in terms of absolutes; I don't think we know a lot of the things you assert we know, and though I understand that it can feel satisfying to do a 180 in order to cope with your disappointment over Adolin's arc (i.e. Brandon will never do anything with Adolin's character), that kind of thinking ends up making me more upset!  On a couple specific points:

Why do you think I am even on this thread? I never supported the Kaladin/Shallan ship, but I found out I agree with the grievance of the Kaladin/Shallan shippers in thinking too much was foreshadowed and not much got used. I also agree it was under-whelming even if I am relatively fine with the conclusion. I realized my issues with the books and the Kaladin/Shallan shippers issues with the book were the same ones, they just didn't focus on the same elements.

I also saw what you all did, decided it was not over, trying to give justification into scenes which went missing and rationalizing a way into which Brandon would salvage it. 

My perspective is the complete opposite. I spent four years taking Adolin's character, writing analysis and essays for him. I have written more than 1000K worth of material on the subject of Adolin and for which purpose? Besides my personal pleasure in writing them? What were they for? A 20K story arc which was lesser than in WoK, broken down in segments which weren't consistent one with another. My involvement into this fandom has been absurd and yet no one from the author's team every recognize I even existed nor did it prompt Brandon to actually address the Adolin fans whenever he made statements for SA. So what's left? Hoping more is to come?

I will do no such thing. For me, it is over. Brandon has made it clear the story he wanted to write was not one where Adolin's character got decent development. Sure, he'll get something, we'll see more of him, but I doubt it will be better nor more lengthy then what we have for OB. As such, I will certainly not prep myself for book 4 expecting more, be disappointed again, nor try to hunt WoB and Brandon to get something consistent out of him. Adolin is not really important in his plans and he has other priorities then pulling on all the little strings he left hanging in there.

I am sorry it upsets you. I just do not want anyone else to end up within my situation. I give out so much to the SA fandom, people have no idea how much... So sorry, I've been burned out, so unless Brandon himself makes a statement to rectify it, then I am out of the hopeful hype wagon. I just do not want anyone to fall down as hard as I did and well, I see a lot of reasons why it may happen to others.

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I've found his books to be completely opposite - side characters end up being well-fleshed out.  To take Mistborn as an example, in the first book, the focus is tightly on Kelsier and Vin, but by the end we have full story arcs for Marsh, Sazed, Spook, Breeze, TenSoon, and I would even say Dox and Clubs get a lot of nuance.  On your point about Brandon not being reflective, he wrote the following about Ham's character in the Mistborn annotations:

I did too! Which is why I kept on hoping and writing and speculating on Adolin: I couldn't believe Brandon would not use his character nor write a satisfying story arc for him, but he did. He's the ONLY character in SA which suffers from such a broken down exposure: he is a tool. A storming tool to the narrative Brandon uses whenever he needs him, but him, him above all characters is not getting real development. Bridge 4 got more development within their short chapters than Adolin did. Well, OK maybe they didn't, but at least it was centered in them, not on them doing things without having any emotions nor thoughts.

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

One thing I have noticed about Brandon, is that he frequently is analyzing the quality of his work and how he can make it better.  Since we are at a mid-point of a very long series, it's hard to evaluate where things will be at the end.  I think you're right that he won't say now - "I messed up and made Adolin boring" - because that would give away too much future plot by saying Adolin is always going to be boring.  Also don't forget we know the betas did bring up the Sadeas point, so that reader reaction has been brought to his attention; he just chose to handle it the way he did.  My opinion is that Adolin has the fourth-most viewpoints after our main three; he has, as you note, a ton of backstory and character development; but we just haven't seen any payoff for that backstory and development.  I think it's coming! 

The Ham quote expresses exactly Brandon's thoughts on Adolin: he isn't interesting enough,he doesn't have enough conflicts. I have a WoB where he says how he finds Renarin so much more interesting because of his secretive introspective nature. Funny thing is my perception is readers find Adolin more interesting because he doesn't have this nature... but Brandon has a different opinion. 

Was the readers reaction really brought up to this attentions? How much did the beta said on the Adolin arc? As far as I am aware, the betas thought the Adolin fans would like the book, probably because of Maya. I loved Maya, but it won't be interesting if Brandon makes Adolin bond her because he is just "open-minded" as opposed to broken, but many readers disagree with me. So which reaction is Brandon supposed to focus on? The readers who loved the book and were pleased with how Brandon handled both Sadeas and the love triangle or the pesky ones which are complaining?

Adolin has less viewpoints in OB than he did in WoK............ I thought this was very telling. I no longer believe in a pay-off, no unless Brandon or someone from his team addresses it.

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

This isn't the case, actually.  With the Skybreakers following Odium and Malata working against our main crew (spying and possibly opening the Oathgate to Kholinar), we have seen Radiant discord already.  The in-world WoR book excerpts also show divisions between orders.  Increased Radiant v. Radiant conflict will almost inevitably become more prominent as the series goes on.

I meant conflict within the main characters, not in between them and the "others".

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think this is the tricky part... I think I can 99.9% guarantee we will see significant development from Adolin in the future.  Now, will you find that development satisfying?  I don't know.  Based on little hints (e.g. off the top of my head - whitespine, Sadeas killing, Adolin's satisfaction with the Sadeas killing, some of his aggressive actions from Kaladin's PoV before they were friends), I think Brandon could be priming us for a Dark Adolin character arc... If that's the case, I bet that will be hard for a lot of readers to swallow.  That's just one way of tying together the hints we have about Adolin's future path, but I am very, very confident he will develop into a less "perfect" character, if only because I have no evidence that Brandon as an author will let his fourth-most prominent character go completely to waste; he just hasn't done that before.  (Re. Ham above, he was the equivalent of saying Drehy didn't get enough development.)

Anyway, I don't mean this as an attack so I hope you don't take it as such, but I do think your disappointment over Adolin's development in OB has made you look at things in a very absolute manner, which is possibly making you even more disappointed.  We have a lot more to see of Adolin in books to come!

I never believed into the Dark Adolin arc: we already have Moash for this. I think the Dark Adolin plot would be more unsatisfying then the plot we have gotten so far. I always thought the Dark Adolin plot relied on a lot of speculation, projection and wishful thinking. 

I think there is evidence Brandon will let the fourth viewpoint character sink into the background and be used as a mere comical relief: this evidence it called Oathbringer.

Oh didn't read it as an attack, as I said, I was very bitter these days. So I guess it shows in my posting and within my lesser activity. I am however afraid it will start raining ducks on the day I'll be able to have enthusiasm over Adolin again.

[aemetha]

Quote

Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped.

That's it.

Adolin grabbed Sadeas by the throat with his unwounded hand, slamming the highprice against the wall. The look of utter shock on Sadeas's face amused a small part of Adolin, the very small part that wasn't completely, totally, and irrevocably enraged.

Okay, so here we have evidence that there was absolutely no altruistic motivation for the murder. He acted out of rage, and what thought he did have of it was of enjoyment. So it should be clear that Adolin should feel remorse for the act. If he doesn't feel remorse due to motivations he later ascribes to the act, he is engaging in revisionism of the act, self-delusion. Whatever justifications he later uses as justification are factually incorrect. His motivation was rage, and sadism (he enjoyed the suffering of Sadeas). Now, I am not saying here that he is a sadist as a pattern of behaviour, nor a walking talking ball of rage as a pattern of behaviour, but in that moment, he was.

Regarding the authors intent for the character, I have to disagree with you. The author has been very clear that there should be consequences, including psychological ones for any killing.

Quote

A wise friend (an LDS writer) once explained that in his opinion, glorifying violence or sexuality comes when consequences are removed. The scriptures themselves don't shy away from graphic content or descriptions (scalps on swords, anyone?) The important issue, however, is that the scriptures show the destructive effect that these things can have, even on the good people who are forced to engage in them.

So, I consider that my charge. I don't sugar-coat my stories; I show cause and effect. A person cannot kill, in my opinion, even for good reasons without it leaving them scarred.

I would argue the self-deceit he is engaging in around the issue is a part of the scarring. He does have a good moral compass, which is why he is engaging in revisionism, because he doesn't want to face that what he did was completely and utterly immoral by the standards of his society and the standards of himself. Sadeas deserved to die, that isn't in doubt. It's how his death happened that is the issue. If Adolin had judged the circumstances using the later justifications prior to killing him, and regretted the necessity of it, that would be a completely different matter. Justice is dispassionate. Adolin never once tried to find a legal and moral way to have Sadeas account for his crimes.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

You really honestly think Brandon will use Ialai again? Brandon will not go back to internal Alethi affairs, especially not Adolin is the Highprince. He's above the law now.

I was more thinking about personal vengeance and, since she already lost everything anyway, maybe a turn to Odium for that, but I was only bringing her up to add to any possibilities really.

[insert_anagram_here]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Brandon said there would be people to think what he did was totally, totally, totally (the emphasis was Brandon's not mine) wrong. He never said we would read it in the book just some people would disagree. He never promised this would be a plot point.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219-words-of-radiance-philadelphia-signing/#e7848

Quote

Questioner

What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway and what happened at the end of this book... between Adolin and the other character [Sadeas]. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally... It just depends on your perspective, but personally I say what Adolin did was something that needed to be done and no one else was capable of doing.

Questioner

Would you say that it's going to have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it's definitely—how it's handled, definitely there are ramifications, lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.

I'm not sure if you meant people (in book) or people (in real life) so I'm trying to clear this up. He says characters in the WoB, so he means in book. And he also says there are lots of ramifications. Like maybe not all of KR Orders would agree with it? 

Edited December 10, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
better wording

[PhineasGage]

@maxal I am honestly not sure it is a good idea for me to keep debating this - for one thing it seems totally clear to me that you've made up your mind and therefore there is nothing I can do to change it. This isn't an attack, but more of an observation. You seem to have closed your mind to the idea of further Adolin progression because 1 book which covered a period of (approx) 2 months in world didn't show huge character progression. Given that neither Shallan nor Kaladin (both MCs) show a huge amount of progression in the same period, I am simply not sure what you expected? I agree that Adolin didn't progress much. I don't see why you believe that he is going to remain the only static character in the story for the next 2 books (and possibly further). From what I can see, because of your disappointment you are unwilling to open yourself up to further disappointment, possibly at the risk of missing out on enjoying the theory crafting between books. I can see that you feel like your effort has gone to waste, but (a) I don't think it has - even for a non-fan like me, having someone around with encyclopedic knowledge of Adolin around is great (so even if the books pan out like you think, that effort is appreciated) and (b) the books aren't over yet - we have 7 more to go. If Adolin has no progression in that time he will be dropped as a side character - other "normal" characters will become more interesting as they will at least be novel. 

Anyway, I've quoted some of your points below that I particularly want to look at, but unless you want me to keep trying to convince you, I'm going to stop debating this with you - I don't want to cause either of us any unnecessary angst. For one thing, you don't seem to be interested in answering my questions.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

He loved him as a boy, but the hate he felt while he grew up due to his strong resemblance to his mother likely distorted his relationship with his son. I never read much love when it comes to Dalinar towards Adolin, I certainly do not read love right here in the end of OB. I read love when he refers to Renarin which is likely him compensating for having literally ignored his younger son for, well, most of his life. Adolin always seemed to be the sore spot: the boy born to be the greater man, the boy he loved, but shut out as he grew up too much like Evi

I disagree, I read plenty. He also trusts Adolin, which is more than he seems to do with Renarin - until the end of WoR anyway. 

Some quotes from tWoK are in the spoilers sections below (just in there so people can skip them if they want)

Spoiler

Quote

Dalinar watched Adolin rush away to do as ordered. The lad’s breastplate still bore a web of cracks, though it had stopped leaking Stormlight. With time, the armor would repair itself. It could reform even if it was completely shattered.

The lad liked to complain, but he was as good a son as a man could ask for. Fiercely loyal, with initiative and a strong sense of command. The soldiers liked him. Perhaps he was a little too friendly with them, but that could be forgiven. Even his hotheadedness could be forgiven, assuming he learned to channel it.

Indeed this shows that Dalinar has a habit of forgiving Adolin, perhaps even when he shouldn't. 

Quote

It only reminded him of Adolin’s arguments. None had been things Dalinar hadn’t considered himself, but being confronted with them by someone he trusted had shaken everything.

Only Adolin could have made the argument to worry Dalinar. He essentially ignores everyone else. Renarin couldn't have confronted him in the way Adolin did. Indeed we see Dalinar trust Adolin all the time. He lets Adolin go into battle at the head of the army because he trusts that the man is good enough to look after himself and lead without being given specific orders. He doesn't trust Elhokar to look after himself or Renarin to manage without support - or we would see him let them be more autonomous.

Quote

“And your son, Brightlord?” Teleb asked. He’d heard of the confrontation between them. Dalinar doubted there was a person in all ten warcamps who hadn’t heard of it.

“Send for him,” Dalinar said firmly. Adolin probably needed this as much as, or more than, Dalinar did.

He could have pushed Adolin away (this is after the confrontation but they haven't yet fully reconciled) but he chose to put Adolin needs ahead of his own feelings about the confrontation. 

Quote

Dalinar held up a hand, quieting several officers who were trying to give him reports. He strode to Adolin, and the youth looked up, meeting his gaze.

“You said what you felt you must,” Dalinar said.

“And I’m not sorry I did,” Adolin replied. “But I am sorry for how, and where, I said it. That won’t happen again.”

Dalinar nodded, and that was enough. Adolin seemed to relax, a weight coming off his shoulders,....

Dalinar loves reports. They are about to go into a fight and these reports are likely important. He actually apologises first essentially (despite the fact that he was in the right and Adolin was in the wrong) and frees Adolin to apologise (kind of)  in turn. 

Quote

Dalinar put himself at the optimal distance from Adolin, allowing his son to protect his blind spots, but not getting too close.

We see Dalinar and Adolin fight like this more than once - and aside from Kaladin, we never see Dalinar trust another man in combat the way he trusts Adolin. 

Quote

The Parshendi surged toward him. Adolin was there in a heartbeat, attacking with more skill than any other man Dalinar had known. The lad was a genius with the Blade, an artist with paint of only one shade.

This is definitely pride in his son speaking. He also uses the word "lad" for Adolin - an epithet he doesn't use for anyone else throughout tWoK - its a pet term.

Quote

He was in danger of dragging down the entire Kholin house. And that was the most important point in favor of him abdicating. If he continued, his actions could very well lead to the deaths of Adolin, Renarin, and Elhokar. He would risk his own life for his ideals, but could he risk the lives of his sons?

This is the moment that Dalinar decides to abdicate. He knows Adolin is ready and realises that he cannot risk the lives of anyone he loves because of the visions. Adolin is in that list - indeed he is named first of the 3 most important people in his life.

Quote

He will make a fine highprince, Dalinar thought. He’s been reared to it in a way that I never was.

More pride in Adolin.  Personally, I am less sure of Adolin's ability to be a decent highprince, but Dalinar is blinded by the love he has for his son.

Quote

The two stared at one another. Dalinar fought to keep his anger contained. In many ways, he and Adolin were too similar. They understood one another, and that enabled them to push in places that hurt.

He is right (which worries me personally given Dalinar's history). But you cannot hurt someone who doesn't care about you. 

Quote

Adolin helped Dalinar back to his feet. “I had to punch through the entire Parshendi army. Nodisrespect, Father, but what in the storms made you pull a stunt like that?”

“The knowledge that you could handle the army if I fell,” Dalinar said, clapping his son on the arm, their Plate clinking.

Dalinar believes in Adolin and isn't afraid to tell him so. It isn't just the arny either - if Dalinar falls in battle, he believes Adolin is ready to take the role of highprince - he has chosen not to abdicate by this point, but he isn't worried about the succession because in his mind Adolin is perfectly ready and may even be better than Dalinar.

Quote

. “Really?” Adolin asked. “I mean, I actually won an argument with you?”

“Yes,” Dalinar said. “Your points are valid.” He didn’t add that he’d come to the decision on his own.

Of course he doesn't add it - allowing Adolin to feel good about this makes Adolin happy and that makes Dalinar happy.

Quote

He knew. Just as Dalinar did. Just as the men likely did. There would be no surviving this battle. The Parshendi left no survivors. Dalinar braced himself, waiting for further accusations from Adolin. The boy had been right all along. And whatever the visions were, they had misled Dalinar in at least one respect.

Its pretty impressive that Dalinar doesn't get angry back at Adolin. I mean, the recriminations are not exactly helpful at this point - it's too late for them. He just awaits the accusations because not only does he think Adolin was right, but he also doesn't want to shout at his son shortly before they are both killed.

Quote

And why did he speak these words now, at the dawn of Dalinar’s greatest failure? And yet, as the words hung in the air, Dalinar felt his guilt evaporating, blown away by the screams of the dying. It was a selfish emotion.

So on one hand, Adolin's forgiveness echoes Evi's later in OB, but also Dalinar needed to be forgiven by Adolin at this moment, and not simply because they are both expecting to die, but because it is Adolin whose arguments were weighing Dalinar down even now. Adolin's forgiveness means everything to Dalinar in this moment. 

Quote

He did, however, discover one regret: He was leaving poor Renarin as Kholin highprince, in over his head and surrounded by enemies grown fat on the flesh of his father and brother.

At no point does Dalinar think this of Adolin. Indeed, he thinks of Renarin much less frequently than he does Adolin - though some of this is because of their conflict in this book. 

I just can't see how this can be read as a lack of love - especially as Dalinar's behaviour to Adolin doesn't actually change - he still trusts him an enormous amount. I mean, he chooses to send him to Kholinar because he can be trusted so much. He won't force Adolin into a marriage because he wants Adolin to be happy. He allows Adolin to duel in part because he knows how much Adolin is giving up by not duelling. Yes he uses it as a means to an end as well, but he knows how much Adolin loves duelling so why not manage two good things? 

9 hours ago, maxal said:

And, as many readers will explain, Brandon did use the Sadeas murder. It did have consequences. It caused Amaram to be named Highprince which, in turn, caused him to fall to his weakness. It caused the Sadeas army to defect and it contributed to the final Kaladin/Amaram's encounter. It offer visibility on how Odium works to make his Champions, how he twists the mind of the weak, how he uses other people's pain, offers to take it away, to give them justification and salvation in exchange for their soul. It also showed how Adolin was immune to it as he doesn't need any of it. Therefore, there were ramifications, just none which touched Adolin's character which is essentially what some readers are complaining about.

This doesn't explain my original point which was why Adolin? Anyone could have killed Sadeas and the outcome would have been the same - because people assumed it was done on Dalinar's orders. The fact that Adolin was the culprit hasn't been dealt with by the story at all. I believe it will be, based on WoB, and that it is something that should cause internal conflict. If it doesn't at least cause conflict within Adolin then you are undermining your own point that he isn't behaving like a sociopath because he should continue to struggle against guilt and try to justify it. Not only have we seen no guilt about the death, but we have seen little internal conflict about the lack of guilt. It is normal to have one or the other. 

On the other point. Odium doesn't "twist the minds of the weak". Do you think Amaram was weak?  His strength of conviction is his own actions is what caused him to fall - he pushed himself too hard and so crumpled when he was finally made aware of his guilt (which he had tried to ignore). 

On top of that, Odium takes pain away subconsciously most of the time - subsuming it in other feelings. This is how both the Thrill and the Heart of the Revel work. It is not that those people consciously "gave up their pain" it is that another emotion covered it up, hiding the pain and making them able to ignore it. A bit like using alcohol or drugs to hide pain, you need more and more emotion to hide it and so you end up with less and less control. When Dalinar was under the sway of the Thrill we didn't see him consciously "give up" his pain or guilt - he only consciously held on to it at the end. Moash doesn't consciously give up his pain either - he just goes numb and is told the pain will be returned to him when he needs it. Adolin's lack of reaction looks to me like Moash's numbness and that was likely related to Odium. I don't assume that Adolin will fall like Moash has, although I think he has the possibility. 

11 hours ago, aemetha said:

I would argue the self-deceit he is engaging in around the issue is a part of the scarring. He does have a good moral compass, which is why he is engaging in revisionism, because he doesn't want to face that what he did was completely and utterly immoral by the standards of his society and the standards of himself.

I agree that if his lack of feeling regarding the murder is inherent to him then the self-deceit is a problem too. I am concerned that there is a supernatural element to his lack of reaction though - and therefore he may essentially be creating false memories of the event? Anyway, I can't prove it.

I am also concerned that (given the lawful vs chaotic discussion before) Adolin's moral compass is less intrinsic to him and is actually more extrinsic. He knows how he should behave and follows those rules. This (to me) helps explain why he doesn't appear to question things like social rank, slavery, prostitution, starvation, and wholesale slaughter that he encounters every day. We don't see him discuss these things with anyone, he doesn't seem to question them and his behaviour whilst decent to individuals, does nothing to improve the lots of people he isn't directly interacting with. Its ok - most of us actually behave this way - it is difficult to change society, but Adolin is is a position to make things better and yet he doesn't. I would hope that if his moral compass is pointing "due Good" then we would see him act more to improve the lives of his people than we have seen thus far. If he is essentially "neutral" then I would expect him to maintain the status quo.

Interestingly, as I was reading through Adolin sections in tWoK this morning, I realised that Adolin has held a grudge against Sadeas for far longer than anyone else. He is already against Sadeas at the beginning of tWoK - even though there is no specific moment that we see that seems to cause it. Sure, he can see Dalinar and Sadeas don't get along, but Dalinar gives him plenty of opportunity to come round with regards to his attitude to Sadeas before the Tower. The more I think about it, the more disturbing it is, because whilst the grudge makes sense in WoR, it doesn't actually make that much sense in tWoK - and yet we see him viscerally angry several times at Sadeas, even though the man hasn't actually done anything specific besides being obnoxious. It seems to be an excessive amount of feeling for a man who (to our knowledge) has not actually done anything specific against Dalinar or his House at that point. If anyone has insight on this I'd appreciate hearing it.

11 hours ago, aemetha said:

Justice is dispassionate. Adolin never once tried to find a legal and moral way to have Sadeas account for his crimes.

Indeed - he actually thinks about killing Sadeas more than once and even threatens him verbally. Sadeas doesn't take it seriously (to his cost). Adolin doesn't seem to look for "justice" (note that Navani does - she writes a glyphward of it) at all during this time. The closest he gets is the idea of the duel, which is kind of ok given the way the court seems to handle this kind of thing. The thing is that Adolin wants him in the arena (or similar) before that and when he thinks about the duel it is for his own personal satisfaction rather than justice. Indeed, had Shallan not come up with the idea for the "boon" from the King, I think the rest of House Kholin would have been essentially content to just carry on and find another means of handling Sadeas (note that assassination is never discussed for example) that didn't resort to his death. They also want action against Sadeas, but none are so focused on it as Adolin. 

14 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Oh, duh. Here I go, just like Rlain fears, discounting him as a member of Bridge Four

Sorry, no cultivationspren for you. You'll have to make do with being another order of KR  

[Info_Drone-0451]

So there're a couple of things I'd like to bring attention to, so let's begin.

Quote

“I’d decided I couldn’t do it, but you convinced me that truth was not as simple as I thought it. You’ve opened a box full of storms in me. I made a mistake. I’ll make more. I need you.”

The Way of Kings, Chapter 70: Sea of Glass

The above passage is from Shallan. So what do you think? Forshadowing and a moment of self-awareness fro Shallan or just a throwaway piece of dialogue. I think and hope that it must be the former that the latter.

Let's continue with something more recent.

Quote

Pattern started humming on her dress again. Shallan backed to the wall. No, this … this was her, wasn’t it? Shallan had always wanted to be a scholar, hadn’t she? She didn’t need another persona to deal with this. Right? … Right?

[...]

“I think so.” Problem was, Veil wanted to spend her days drinking and laughing with the men, practicing espionage. Radiant wanted to practice with the sword and spend time around Adolin. What did Shallan want? And did it matter?

[...]

 “Because I’m an idiot,” Shallan said. “And a fool. And … because I don’t know what I want. ” Hadn’t it been only a week or two ago that she’d innocently assumed she had it figured out? Whatever “it” was?

Oathbringer, Chapter 44: The Bright Side

Also from Shallan. So it's suddenly Radiant who wants to spend time around Adolin while Shallan doesn't know what she wants? This whole chapter is basically Shallan struggling with her identity. Now it might be that by the time she makes her choice she has found out what she wants and who she is but from what has been pointed out here I'm not entirely convinced. The Shallan that Adolin "chose" seems to be the one who knows what she wants the least and is struggling with her identity the most.

Let me know what you think. Am I reading too much into it and expect too much out of random pieces of dialogue? I don't think so but I thought it'd be good to get someone else to examine these tidbits...

Edited December 10, 2017 by DimChatz

[maxal]

18 hours ago, aemetha said:

Okay, so here we have evidence that there was absolutely no altruistic motivation for the murder. He acted out of rage, and what thought he did have of it was of enjoyment. So it should be clear that Adolin should feel remorse for the act. If he doesn't feel remorse due to motivations he later ascribes to the act, he is engaging in revisionism of the act, self-delusion. Whatever justifications he later uses as justification are factually incorrect. His motivation was rage, and sadism (he enjoyed the suffering of Sadeas). Now, I am not saying here that he is a sadist as a pattern of behaviour, nor a walking talking ball of rage as a pattern of behaviour, but in that moment, he was.

Regarding the authors intent for the character, I have to disagree with you. The author has been very clear that there should be consequences, including psychological ones for any killing.

I would argue the self-deceit he is engaging in around the issue is a part of the scarring. He does have a good moral compass, which is why he is engaging in revisionism, because he doesn't want to face that what he did was completely and utterly immoral by the standards of his society and the standards of himself. Sadeas deserved to die, that isn't in doubt. It's how his death happened that is the issue. If Adolin had judged the circumstances using the later justifications prior to killing him, and regretted the necessity of it, that would be a completely different matter. Justice is dispassionate. Adolin never once tried to find a legal and moral way to have Sadeas account for his crimes.

I disagree with this statement: the larger part of WoR had Dalinar and Adolin trying to find a legal way to deal with Sadeas. It was highlighted within the book how it was impossible for them to formally accuse Sadeas as it would mean civil way in between their princedom, it would have broke the kingdom and they couldn't risk it. As such, the only path left open to them was to find a legal way to take Sadeas out or, at the very least, to reduce his influence significantly enough he wouldn't be a threat anymore. This is why they orchestrated the 4 on 1 duel, a ploy to force Sadeas into the ring where Adolin would be free to kill him in a perfectly acceptable and legal way. It failed.

They had no more options. Early OB showed us how Dalinar had zero intentions to deal with Sadeas, he mourned the loss of his military capacity, he thought finding Urithiru was enough to cement Alethkar and would have Sadeas fall in-line. Adolin was however privy to Sadeas's musing on how wrong Dalinar was, on how he would keep on making trouble and, the problem is and has always been, Sadeas had the means to carry on his threats. As such, I think it is false to say Adolin never tried to find a legal and moral way to deal with Sadeas: he did, he failed. Now he was put into a situation where he was either allowing a threat to walk free on the promise he may find a way to deal with it later, while knowing Dalinar will NOT deal with it, or he was ending it now. Adolin chose now and when Adolin makes a decision, we have never seen him second guessed himself. Ever. 

We have never seen Adolin acknowledge he made a mistake. Sadeas, it seems to me, is just another example. Adolin genuinely does not think he made a mistake, he genuinely thinks he did something good.

As for psychological scars, Brandon wrote none within his textual. I don't believe Adolin can do such a thing without it having no consequences, but this is what the author wrote. At this point in time however, I am willing to believe Brandon never realized this is how he wrote it, I personally believe Brandon thinks he broached it. Adolin thinks about the murder a few times, he wonders how he should feel about it, then decides he should not feel guilty, but he did think of it. He did weight it, within his own mind. It just wasn't a very big story arc and it kind of happened within three sentences. I however do not think Brandon planned for more.

As for altruist intentions, you forgot to quote why Adolin snaps in the first place: he snaps because Sadeas told him there was NOTHING he could ever do to stop him. He promised there was NOTHING Adolin could do to protect his father. Except killing Sadeas. This is why Adolin snaps. Sure, he didn't have deepened thoughts on the matter, but I honestly do not see why he should: every single character within this story has killed without much additional thoughts. I don't know why Adolin is held to a different standard because he killed Sadeas: of all the people whom were killed, Sadeas deserved it the best.

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

I was more thinking about personal vengeance and, since she already lost everything anyway, maybe a turn to Odium for that, but I was only bringing her up to add to any possibilities really.

Well, yes, I agree theoretically Ialai could want personal revenge. I am however going to agree SA has become way bigger then Ialai's petty wishes for vengeance and, as such, it won't be a plot point.

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

@maxal I am honestly not sure it is a good idea for me to keep debating this - for one thing it seems totally clear to me that you've made up your mind and therefore there is nothing I can do to change it. This isn't an attack, but more of an observation. You seem to have closed your mind to the idea of further Adolin progression because 1 book which covered a period of (approx) 2 months in world didn't show huge character progression. Given that neither Shallan nor Kaladin (both MCs) show a huge amount of progression in the same period, I am simply not sure what you expected? I agree that Adolin didn't progress much. I don't see why you believe that he is going to remain the only static character in the story for the next 2 books (and possibly further). From what I can see, because of your disappointment you are unwilling to open yourself up to further disappointment, possibly at the risk of missing out on enjoying the theory crafting between books. I can see that you feel like your effort has gone to waste, but (a) I don't think it has - even for a non-fan like me, having someone around with encyclopedic knowledge of Adolin around is great (so even if the books pan out like you think, that effort is appreciated) and (b) the books aren't over yet - we have 7 more to go. If Adolin has no progression in that time he will be dropped as a side character - other "normal" characters will become more interesting as they will at least be novel. 

Oh don't worry I am not reading any of it as an attack and I was very honest from the start. I came out of four long years of speculations and anticipations which were slowly ripped, destroyed up until my most anxious to read story arc turned being not much into the book. So while we can definitely craft an argument on how it is not over, I keep on feeling if Brandon did not capitalize on his own cliff-hanger, when it was warm, angst-y and well positioned within the story, then why would he do it later? I have kept track of every single WoB on the matter of Adolin for the past four years, I've gotten information very few people have seen and they all agree one with another: Brandon doesn't have big plans for Adolin. Sure, he gave him a bigger role than initially planned, but he is not a protagonist within this story, therefore imagining his arc will ever read as one or will ever carry on the depth of one is bound to lead to disappointment. 

My issues with Adolin's character is not the lack of progression, other characters had little progression within the book, it is the fact Brandon did not bother to write him a story arc to begin with. Let's see how it really played out in OB....

Early Part 1: We see two really nice Adolin's viewpoints early on which shows him being introspective. He doesn't want to think about the murder, he over-works himself in order to compensate. We see it weights on him. He reads as more emotional then before: he has a lot of reactions to events. Seeing the copy-cat murders created a strong reaction into him and led to Shallan to notice many odd behaviors with Adolin.

Late Part 1: All the angst, the emotions and the stress is gone. Adolin becomes serviceable to Shallan's story arc, he brings muscles to her quest without adding much else. 

Part 2: Adolin is not present in Part 2. His name is mentioned twice, I think.

Part 3: Adolin is back into the story, but all traces of his earlier dilemma are completely gone. Adolin is working to the service of the plot. He takes over the lead of the operation, he gets them to his "safe-house" and is then used as a mere comical relief while Shallan and Kaladin are actually having story arcs. 

Very Late Part 3: Adolin has viewpoints again, after not having them for over 70 chapters. He muses a bit about Sadeas, but makes his decision he shouldn't trouble himself with it. He is very set on the task at hand. The fact he is tired, the fact he didn't sleep never really mattered which was annoying considering Shallan is always written as dropping down because she is so tired. Adolin it seems can power through sleepless nights, through injuries, through stress, through death and through everything: he'll watch everyone drop of exhaustion, every single Radiants have the advantage of stormlight before he shows signs of it and even then. So great action scenes, but we see how whatever goes on in Adolin's mind, it does not matter during the attack. It is, by all means, gone.

Part 4: Adolin is out of his league into Shadesmar, but without previous viewpoints to highlight his growing discomfort with the new world, it falls kind of flat. He repetitively says he feels over-whelmed and yet he takes the lead. The fact he expresses those emotions led to not valid plot point. He gets stab by the Fused and Maya saves him, but even while bleeding out to his death, Adolin still has few comments to offer nor valid reaction whatsoever. He accepts he is to die and wishes for Kaladin/Shallan to leave him and escape. 

Part 5: Adolin is healed. Apart from Shallan, now one thinks to ask how he is doing, everyone basically ignores him including his own father. He then goes about to fight whatever he can fight. He muses over how he never killed Alethi and he doesn't like it. He then corrects himself thinking he did kill Sadeas, but once again, those thoughts aren't causing any reaction into him whatsoever. He fights the thunderclast, which was an awesome fight, he gets badly injured but before the creature can finish him up, Renarin comes back to heal him. Partially. Still, despite still being in pain, Adolin picks up a lance and goes back to fight. After the fight, all signs of injuries are gone: Shallan is weak and needs everyone to look over her. Adolin is once again, pictured as unaffected by most events. Even when he "abducts" in favor of Kaladin, emotions, in a very emotional character, do not seem to run very outwardly. Later Adolin uses the fact he murdered Sadeas as an excuse to refuse to being king: this is the only consequence Brandon wrote and I believe it will be the only one. He still gets to be a boring Highprince. This scene is meant to be the hallmark of Adolin's character progression, because he defies his father. It however falls flat because Adolin had too little development before.

The end. Hence my issues aren't the lack of progression, it is the fact Brandon most likely believe he wrote it and, as such, will not correct it. My issues also are how Adolin's earlier reactions are completely ignored later on. My issues are I think OB wasn't a very well-written book when it comes to characters arcs............... which is why I have a hard time believing Brandon has a "plan" for future developments. I think he believes he executed it well.

And yes, we have seven more books to go, but without Brandon's firm commitment more and better Adolin is to come, hoping for more has become pointless. It is also true other characters will rise, but I have been very honest with this as well. I don't find the other characters as interesting as Adolin and while other character arcs might be great to read in future books, it will never compensate for the botched up arc for Adolin.

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Some quotes from tWoK are in the spoilers sections below (just in there so people can skip them if they want)

I just can't see how this can be read as a lack of love - especially as Dalinar's behaviour to Adolin doesn't actually change - he still trusts him an enormous amount. I mean, he chooses to send him to Kholinar because he can be trusted so much. He won't force Adolin into a marriage because he wants Adolin to be happy. He allows Adolin to duel in part because he knows how much Adolin is giving up by not duelling. Yes he uses it as a means to an end as well, but he knows how much Adolin loves duelling so why not manage two good things? 

This doesn't explain my original point which was why Adolin? Anyone could have killed Sadeas and the outcome would have been the same - because people assumed it was done on Dalinar's orders. The fact that Adolin was the culprit hasn't been dealt with by the story at all. I believe it will be, based on WoB, and that it is something that should cause internal conflict. If it doesn't at least cause conflict within Adolin then you are undermining your own point that he isn't behaving like a sociopath because he should continue to struggle against guilt and try to justify it. Not only have we seen no guilt about the death, but we have seen little internal conflict about the lack of guilt. It is normal to have one or the other. 

I have always read trust and love as two different things: Brandon trusts Adolin, he sees him as the great man he himself failed to be, but love is something else entirely. My reasons for saying I never thought Dalinar loved Adolin very much (we saw in the flashbacks he did love him as a boy, but he hated him as a teenager, I feel he later has issues with both feelings, he can't love Adolin as he once did) were he never really cared about his physical safety nor integrity. He never worries over him, even if he trusts him, as a father, it should be at the back of his mind, but it never is. Dalinar also treats Adolin as a soldier, just a soldier, never a son. On the other hand, I felt many of Dalinar's scenes with Renarin had a fondness to them I never read into his scenes with Adolin. Dalinar is also very harsh with Adolin and that too never gave me a strong "love" vibe.

Why Adolin? I have been asking myself this question too and I have come to think Brandon just disagrees with all of us. While the murder mattered to the narrative, the fact Adolin did it has not mattered. It hasn't been dealt with, but nothing promises it will be dealt with, especially not with the one year gap. And yes, the WoB implies there would be internal conflict, but honestly I think we got it. Adolin wondered about the murder and decided he was right to do so: this was the internal conflict. We just expected more or something more important, more interesting, but I sincerely believe Brandon broached it and dealt with it. My point in saying he doesn't behave like a sociopath is link to Adolin having dealt with it, having wondered about guilt. The fact we think it was insufficient doesn't change the fact it was written into the text: we just expected something greater, more obvious, more important. We were wrong: it was not important, but it is false to say Brandon did not broach it.

Mind, we could always ask Brandon and maybe someone will ask, but I do think he'd say: "There were ramifications and conflicts written into the story". 

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

On the other point. Odium doesn't "twist the minds of the weak". Do you think Amaram was weak?  His strength of conviction is his own actions is what caused him to fall - he pushed himself too hard and so crumpled when he was finally made aware of his guilt (which he had tried to ignore). 

On top of that, Odium takes pain away subconsciously most of the time - subsuming it in other feelings. This is how both the Thrill and the Heart of the Revel work. It is not that those people consciously "gave up their pain" it is that another emotion covered it up, hiding the pain and making them able to ignore it. A bit like using alcohol or drugs to hide pain, you need more and more emotion to hide it and so you end up with less and less control. When Dalinar was under the sway of the Thrill we didn't see him consciously "give up" his pain or guilt - he only consciously held on to it at the end. Moash doesn't consciously give up his pain either - he just goes numb and is told the pain will be returned to him when he needs it. Adolin's lack of reaction looks to me like Moash's numbness and that was likely related to Odium. I don't assume that Adolin will fall like Moash has, although I think he has the possibility. 

Do I think Amaram was weak? Yes. He was too weak to accept responsibility for his actions. He refused to take the blame and to admit his own guilt. He had the opposite reaction to Adolin whom takes full responsibility of his actions and isn't trying to find a way to exonerate himself. He killed Sadeas because he felt he had too. He doens't feel bad about it which is why Odium has nothing to hook onto Adolin. The only reason he could hook on Amaram was because Amaram felt bad about Kaladin, he felt justified, but bad about it. He could hook onto Dalinar because Dalinar couldn't take responsibility for his actions. Moash has a different story in the sense he was looking for someone to blame for his misfortune, something to fuel his revenge. 

Adolin just isn't within the same situation. Adolin is pleased with how events turned out. He feels no pain, no guilt, no negative emotions for Odium to fester on. Also, we do have a WoB which states Adolin murdering Sadeas had nothing to do with Odium.

I honestly do not see which side of Adolin Odium could use against him. 

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Interestingly, as I was reading through Adolin sections in tWoK this morning, I realised that Adolin has held a grudge against Sadeas for far longer than anyone else. He is already against Sadeas at the beginning of tWoK - even though there is no specific moment that we see that seems to cause it. Sure, he can see Dalinar and Sadeas don't get along, but Dalinar gives him plenty of opportunity to come round with regards to his attitude to Sadeas before the Tower. The more I think about it, the more disturbing it is, because whilst the grudge makes sense in WoR, it doesn't actually make that much sense in tWoK - and yet we see him viscerally angry several times at Sadeas, even though the man hasn't actually done anything specific besides being obnoxious. It seems to be an excessive amount of feeling for a man who (to our knowledge) has not actually done anything specific against Dalinar or his House at that point. If anyone has insight on this I'd appreciate hearing it.

Sadeas had been attacking Dalinar's reputation for a long time before the events of WoK. He had bad-mouthed him and discredited him on numerous occasions which is why Adolin is angry at him from the start. Alethi take verbal threats as a serious offense and it is implied Sadeas has not been kind to what he perceived as Dalinar's growing weakness. It is also stated how the Kholins had not gone out for a gem in weeks due to Dalinar's refusal to fight causing them to become the laughing stock of Alethkar. Adolin took harm done to his house's reputations very seriously.

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Indeed - he actually thinks about killing Sadeas more than once and even threatens him verbally. Sadeas doesn't take it seriously (to his cost). Adolin doesn't seem to look for "justice" (note that Navani does - she writes a glyphward of it) at all during this time. The closest he gets is the idea of the duel, which is kind of ok given the way the court seems to handle this kind of thing. The thing is that Adolin wants him in the arena (or similar) before that and when he thinks about the duel it is for his own personal satisfaction rather than justice. Indeed, had Shallan not come up with the idea for the "boon" from the King, I think the rest of House Kholin would have been essentially content to just carry on and find another means of handling Sadeas (note that assassination is never discussed for example) that didn't resort to his death. They also want action against Sadeas, but none are so focused on it as Adolin. 

Assassination is never discussed because it isn't within the Alethi ways to assassinate an opponent. We have a WoB which confirms Alethi would not try to assassinate a rival, but would instead try to get him to duel you so you could kill him. It is also stated within the flashbacks how Gavilar managed to get most of his opponents to duel Dalinar so he could kill them in all legality. As such, it is normal neither Dalinar nor Adolin would think of assassination as a means to achieve their end: this just isn't how Alethi deal with their opponents. 

[aemetha]

47 minutes ago, maxal said:

the larger part of WoR had Dalinar and Adolin trying to find a legal way to deal with Sadeas

I read those scenes quite differently. What I saw was Dalinar trying to find a legal way to deal with Sadeas, and Adolin (barely) doing what Dalinar told him to do. Adolin himself had to be constrained on several occasions to prevent him from murdering Sadeas very publicly. 

49 minutes ago, maxal said:

Now he was put into a situation where he was either allowing a threat to walk free on the promise he may find a way to deal with it later, while knowing Dalinar will NOT deal with it, or he was ending it now.

Except this thought process never happened. The scene where Adolin kills Sadeas is one of the few POV scenes we have of him, and it is clearly described as a moment of rage in which the future consequences, good and bad, are not considered. He killed him because he was angry, and he enjoyed inflicting pain on him at the time.

52 minutes ago, maxal said:

Sure, he didn't have deepened thoughts on the matter, but I honestly do not see why he should: every single character within this story has killed without much additional thoughts. I don't know why Adolin is held to a different standard because he killed Sadeas: of all the people whom were killed, Sadeas deserved it the best.

Those other characters reacted to an immediate threat (Shallan), or were conducting the business of war in which killing is a requirement (Kaladin), or were similarly vilified (Dalinar). Adolin is held to the standard he is being held to because intent matters. It matters not just that he killed a person, but why he killed a person. All of those things you said about Sadeas threatening his family, and never stopping are all completely accurate. The thing is though, those things didn't result in him making a calm analysis and rationally weighing the options and coming to the conclusion that he had to kill him because there were no other options. Instead what happened is Adolin hated Sadeas from the beginning of the series, and those things inflamed his hatred, and we see in the text that he acted out of hatred, not out of self-defence. Adolin is not held to a different standard here, any character that kills out of hatred will be (by me at least) held to that same standard. It's well established in the moral standards of our world and implied if not outright stated in the world described that hatred is not a mitigating factor in a case of murder, it is an aggravating factor. Taking a life because the person is a dangerous threat (a thought process not described) is a relatively selfless act, while taking a life because the person is deeply hated by you (a thought process that is described) is a selfish act.

[Dreamstorm]

On 12/9/2017 at 3:25 PM, maxal said:

The story made it clear Adolin would suffer no consequences, there are no one left to trial nor accuse him and he just sits well above the law as a Highprince. This isn't a fact which will hold over Adolin's head because, as Dalinar put it, everyone broke the code at one time or another. We've been there before, trying to find how the event could be used against Adolin, but OB was very clear on the matter: the event is not relevant enough.

What I think we see over and over in SA is that there are two kinds of consequences to a character doing a "bad" action - external consequences vs. internal consequences.  I think you create a reasonable argument that there will be no further external consequences for Adolin.  (Though I would argue that in our last Dalinar viewpoint, we see Dalinar muse "Adolin was not the man Dalinar had thought he was - but then, couldn't he forgive someone for that?" which indicates that Dalinar isn't set on the fact he "forgives" Adolin and that this change in how Dalinar see Adolin will reverberate throughout future books - we are told time and time and time again how Dalinar thinks Adolin is a much better person than Dalinar himself is, so this is a huge perspective shift for Dalinar.)  But, for the sake of argument, let's say there are no more external consequences for Adolin murdering Sadeas like you say.  However, that says nothing for Adolin's internal consequences; how him committing this murder shapes the way he views himself and the world around him.  This is a constant theme in SA - Kaladin with Elhokar is a good example; there were no external consequences for Elhokar for Kaladin, but he suffered massively because the fact he was doing nothing about it was crippling him internally.  So much of SA is about how one deals with one's actions have far-reaching effects (to pull from our non-main three, Amaram and Moash's stories are very focused on how they justify their actions internally), that I can't see this driving force throughout the books just being dropped when it comes to Adolin.  It wouldn't be that Adolin was boring; it would be that he would be existing under fundamentally different rules than our other characters by not having internal consequences for his actions.  One thing about Adolin is that the strongest emotions he displays in the entire series is over his hate for Sadeas (contrast this with the way he deals with Shallan mooning over Kaladin - there's just resignation and slight annoyance where most reasonable people would be angry), so for me that hints that we will see the most internal development in Adolin surrounding these emotions.  Adolin's hatred for Sadeas is a defining part of Adolin's character, so I can't imagine that Adolin will be literally the only character who won't have internal consequences for those emotions, even if the external consequences are not severe.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I have kept track of every single WoB on the matter of Adolin for the past four years, I've gotten information very few people have seen and they all agree one with another: Brandon doesn't have big plans for Adolin.

Can you share these WoB's which say Brandon doesn't have plans for Adolin to have character growth and development? The ones I've read don't jive with that, and that would make Adolin unique as the only character treated as thus.

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Early Part 1: We see two really nice Adolin's viewpoints early on which shows him being introspective. He doesn't want to think about the murder, he over-works himself in order to compensate. We see it weights on him. [...]

Very Late Part 3: Adolin has viewpoints again, after not having them for over 70 chapters. He muses a bit about Sadeas, but makes his decision he shouldn't trouble himself with it. He is very set on the task at hand. [.....]

Part 4: Adolin is out of his league into Shadesmar, but without previous viewpoints to highlight his growing discomfort with the new world, it falls kind of flat. He repetitively says he feels over-whelmed and yet he takes the lead. [...]

Part 5: [...] He then goes about to fight whatever he can fight. He muses over how he never killed Alethi and he doesn't like it. He then corrects himself thinking he did kill Sadeas, but once again, those thoughts aren't causing any reaction into him whatsoever. He fights the thunderclast, which was an awesome fight [...] 

So, I pruned this down a bit (partially because I think you can't tell that much about Adolin's internal thoughts from other PoVs), but what I see here is a consistent pattern of not thinking about the Sadeas murder and overworking himself to distraction.  Can you really say that is healthy?  Do you really think if Brandon wanted to show that the murder was justified and shouldn't effect Adolin that in the few viewpoints we get of Adolin he's pushing away his feelings and throwing himself in work/the fight instead?  I just don't think it's reasonable to say, based even on the few viewpoints we have, that Adolin has actually dealt with his feelings (this is even separate from the fact he hasn't suffered any true internal consequences for the action.)

On 12/9/2017 at 3:25 PM, maxal said:

I have a WoB where he says how he finds Renarin so much more interesting because of his secretive introspective nature. Funny thing is my perception is readers find Adolin more interesting because he doesn't have this nature... but Brandon has a different opinion. [....]

I think the Dark Adolin plot would be more unsatisfying then the plot we have gotten so far.  I always thought the Dark Adolin plot relied on a lot of speculation, projection and wishful thinking.

So, I can understand why a Dark Adolin plot line would be unsatisfying for you individually, but from a literary craftsmanship perspective, why do you think this would be a unsatisfying plotline?  (Or if it's just your individual opinion, that's fine too.)  Dark Adolin doesn't have to stay Dark Adolin; he could emerge from it a stronger person.

I also just want to point out that on one hand you say that everyone likes Adolin because he's not secretive and introspective and then on the other hand you think it's wishful thinking of fans that Adolin will go dark... those two don't really jive because it seems like you can't decide if everyone loves Adolin or everyone hates Adolin.  At least from what I've been pointed to (and I'm a very reluctant Dark Adolin quasi-believer because I actually quite like having Adolin around the way he is), there are some definite hints that something might happen to turn Adolin to the Dark Side (Anakin - Adolin, totally the same right?), not to mention Brandon's clear writing philosophy is that actions have definite consequences (which getting Adolin out of a job as king he didn't want doesn't count - in some ways that makes it worse because he uses the murder as an excuse to avoid responsibility.)  I think it all hinges on the Sadeas hatred and whether or not Adolin will truly face that.

Btw, just as an aside, it's a funny position to be in to try and convince you that your favorite character isn't/will not always be boring!

[Egomere]

damnation.... when did this topic get unlocked? I haven't been checking it because I thought it was clamped - now I have about 20 pages to read to catch up... good job I only have a few hours of work the next day or two.

[Greywatch]

57 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

What I think we see over and over in SA is that there are two kinds of consequences to a character doing a "bad" action - external consequences vs. internal consequences.  I think you create a reasonable argument that there will be no further external consequences for Adolin.  (Though I would argue that in our last Dalinar viewpoint, we see Dalinar muse "Adolin was not the man Dalinar had thought he was - but then, couldn't he forgive someone for that?" which indicates that Dalinar isn't set on the fact he "forgives" Adolin and that this change in how Dalinar see Adolin will reverberate throughout future books - we are told time and time and time again how Dalinar thinks Adolin is a much better person than Dalinar himself is, so this is a huge perspective shift for Dalinar.)  But, for the sake of argument, let's say there are no more external consequences for Adolin murdering Sadeas like you say.  However, that says nothing for Adolin's internal consequences; how him committing this murder shapes the way he views himself and the world around him.  This is a constant theme in SA - Kaladin with Elhokar is a good example; there were no external consequences for Elhokar for Kaladin, but he suffered massively because the fact he was doing nothing about it was crippling him internally.  So much of SA is about how one deals with one's actions have far-reaching effects (to pull from our non-main three, Amaram and Moash's stories are very focused on how they justify their actions internally), that I can't see this driving force throughout the books just being dropped when it comes to Adolin.  It wouldn't be that Adolin was boring; it would be that he would be existing under fundamentally different rules than our other characters by not having internal consequences for his actions.  One thing about Adolin is that the strongest emotions he displays in the entire series is over his hate for Sadeas (contrast this with the way he deals with Shallan mooning over Kaladin - there's just resignation and slight annoyance where most reasonable people would be angry), so for me that hints that we will see the most internal development in Adolin surrounding these emotions.  Adolin's hatred for Sadeas is a defining part of Adolin's character, so I can't imagine that Adolin will be literally the only character who won't have internal consequences for those emotions, even if the external consequences are not severe.

Dreamstorm, I can't convey enough how much I agree with you. I was just saying earlier in PMs that in OB, all we've seen is that one source of an external consequence for Adolin is now gone, but there are still internal consequences to come. Dalinar knows, and though this might change what Dalinar thinks about him, he doesn't seem that angry or upset either. I'm not discounting what Ialai might do! (I honestly expect more and real external consequences from her party, especially now that she has very little power from the Sadeas forces and might turn more to the Ghostbloods!) But I also think that now that Adolin is worrying less about what his father thinks, he might now have more time to really let it sink in and reflect. Just because it ended sort of lightly at the end of OB doesn't mean it's over, and I'm with you - I think there's more to come for Adolin's internal consequences.

Personally, I strongly disagree with the conclusion that because Adolin was angry and hated Sadeas means that murdering Sadeas was somehow less moral than what we've seen other characters do. We've seen lots of... different ways of being moral, to put it gingerly. Personally, though I like Szeth and find him very compelling as of OB, I think what he did was way less moral than Adolin killing Sadeas. Szeth knew it was wrong and evil, he felt bad, but he still kept doing it. To me, this is a much less defensible position than Adolin acting in anger, thinking about it, and though his emotions were in the wrong place at the time, coming to the conclusion that he doesn't regret it. For my part, I'm just so relieved that Sadeas is dead. Adolin snapped in anger, but he still prevented a great deal of pain and trouble for his family, and was proud to have defended his father. That I can get behind.

[FeatherWriter]

Boy there's a lot going on in this thread, huh?

I've been debating whether or not it's a good idea to step into the boiling waters here, but what the heck, I'll throw my hat in the ring. I'm just going to try to broad strokes some things because I don't want to end up falling into writing a 2,000 word response. I have better things to do with my Sunday afternoon. If I oversimplify your points, please understand that it's not an attack or misrepresentation, just me trying to look at the big picture here.

That said, I feel like a lot of the reason that this thread has shifted here is that there's a majority of Kaladin/Shallan shippers who are trying to elucidate why they feel Adolin is the wrong pick for Shallan, but from my perspective, this discussion ended up shifting in an echo chamber sort of way to a characterization of Adolin that I simply don't find tenable. Adolin as a sadist or a sociopath? I'm almost amused that a thread that could accuse him of being too much of a picture-perfect Prince Charming is also saying that he's a barely restrained rage monster who loves killing and seeing his victims suffer. 

Adolin's an incredibly moral character, from where I stand. He's deeply empathetic and naturally kind. He has a strong sense of right and wrong, but it doesn't always line up with his father's sense of right and wrong, which causes tension between them. His killing of Sadeas was not the first act of a potential serial killer or anything so macabre, it was a frustrated sense of vigilante justice. Sadeas was unquestionably a monster who tried, on multiple occasions, to not only kill Dalinar and Adolin, but also successfully murdered over half of the Kholin soldiers, innocent men who had absolutely nothing to do with the feud. And the Alethi justice system did nothing. Sadeas was untouchable, save for some very weird loopholes in a dueling match with a boon. Sadeas gloated in this and made it clear to Adolin that he wasn't ever going to stop, so... Adolin stopped him.

This isn't a misplaced anger or a sign of moral deficiency, this is someone coming face-to-face with their attempted murdered who smiles at them and says "I'm going to try to murder you and everyone you love again and there's nothing you can do to stop me." So Adolin stops him. I don't think it was the wisest course of action, but I think the fallout in Oathbringer (or lack thereof) shows that the characters figured out what Adolin did in that moment: Sadeas needed to be dealt with and in this case, there wasn't an easy or clean way to do it. It's unfortunate that it came to knives in the dark, but well... it kind of needed to.

It's not something I would have realized going into Oathbringer, but in hindsight, I don't think Sadeas' murder could have been the big crisis of conscience that some were expecting, because even though Adolin might have had the "am I a cold-blooded killer?" question kicking around, at some point someone would have said "okay yeah bud, you might have killed him, but he didn't really leave you any other choice."

Perhaps that's the Skybreaker in me who feels that the legal system failed in Sadeas' case and Adolin killing him was a restoration of justice in this case, but that's just me. Brandon did say that Skybreakers would not find Adolin's actions objectionable, so that makes sense.

That said, I don't necessarily think it means that this plot is entirely wrapped up just yet. The focus on Sadeas might be over, but I think we'll see more out of Adolin and struggling with this in the future. Perhaps it'll be a barrier that he has to work through in order to reawaken Maya, that she would be hesitant to respond to someone who did such a thing, as she starts coming back to life. Perhaps Adolin will have another moment of snapping and will attack or kill someone else, perhaps this time someone who isn't as much of an irredeemable monster as Sadeas was and he'll have to confront that. There's still possibilities. I don't think this one's fully resolved.

However, what I do think is fully resolved is the love triangle, to drag this thread back on track.

I'll admit, I was never a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and I ground my teeth through every one of their scenes in WoR and OB until the end. A lot of that had to do with the fact that I felt those scenes were set up in a very cliche way, and that we were exploring cliche scenes that seemed to paste a straightforward boy-meets-girl progression over a slew of dangerously unhealthy traumatic pasts and incompatibilities. I remember thinking in Words of Radiance that the only way I'd enjoy the Kaladin and Shallan scenes were if they were leading to a subversion. Which, it was, so in hindsight, I like those scenes a lot.

In short, I should have trusted Brandon. I was afraid that he was ignoring the deeper issues between Kaladin and Shallan by fitting them into these puzzle-piece perfect relationship scenes. I feared that we were falling into a cookie-cutter plan without considering the true implications of it, and if that was what was happening, I was wholeheartedly against it. Thankfully, Brandon was on the same wavelength as me. Kaladin and Shallan were a subversion and though I was worried that they weren't going in that direction at first, now that I can see that they did, I think it turned out very well.

Perhaps Words of Radiance was a bit on-the-nose with the Kaladin and Shallan set up, but in hindsight, the point of those scenes was to take two incompatible characters and run them through the steps of the romantic relationships, so that later, we could see why that setup was doomed to fail. The infamous "storms she smiled anyway" scene reads on the surface as a beautiful character moment (which drove me nuts because it was super unhealthy, right?). And yet, when we revisit that philosophy of Kaladin idolizing Shallan's dangerous coping mechanisms on the ship in Oathbringer, we see that as they tread that path once more, the conversation collapses as Shallan hears Kaladin tell her that he wishes he had what she considers to be her greatest flaw, and we see that Kaladin doesn't understand the true depths of how this has damaged her and how insidious her repression is. He buys the lie, he sees the smiles and the laughter and thinks its genuine. And of course he would. Kaladin wishes he could smile and laugh and thinks anything that allows Shallan to do that is a good thing, when both Shallan and the audience know it is exactly the opposite.

Same with Shallan and Kaladin's "meet cute," the Boots scene, which again, on surface level seems like a hilarious comedy of errors sort of scene. Shallan's doing an outrageous accent, Kaladin's grumbly at having to deal with a stupid lighteyes, it means that they both start off on the wrong foot and will now how a hilarious reason to snipe at each other and have to bond through later in the chasms. Which, again, feels a bit RomCom 101, but also ignores the deeper meaning of a lighteyes playing games with a darkeyes she just met, simply because her rank allows her to do so. Taking the boots of a soldier while he's on a shift, especially on the contrived premise that she's foreign royalty to got offended by misunderstanding him, is a cruel action, but Shallan doesn't consider the implications for Kaladin as she's doing this. She's just having fun playing games with him and thinks that she wants shoes.

If we were simply supposed to take the surface meet cute at face value and laugh at how humorous it is, then that's an issue, as we ignore the underlying truths and characterization of both Kaladin and Shallan and what this reveals about both of them as people. And yet, it's not just a surface meet cute. It is meant to be revelatory of their issues and show the problems between them, under the disguise of a normal, run-of-the-mill flirty ship scene.

In hindsight, Brandon's set up of Kaladin and Shallan and their relationship arc, ending finally in them both accepting that they aren't right for each other is masterful, especially for an author like Brandon, whose strengths have never fallen in writing romances. That he wrote a great long-con amicably failed romance of two characters who initially seemed like they could work well but eventually revealed that such was not the case was really well done. I even like, again in hindsight, the way he moved Shallan and Kaladin through those almost stock scenes of setting up a potential relationship, but used them to subtly reveal their flaws rather than actually bringing them together. Was there a lot of "evidence" for Shallan and Kaladin as a relationship? Yes, but all of it was two-fold, in that as it openly seemed to be setting them up together, it was actually revealing why they would never end up together all along. Masterfully clever, if you ask me.

Now, I haven't really gone into a depth of why I think Shallan and Adolin are good together, but I can hit the high points. Adolin is a great person, and he is especially a great match for Shallan. He is deeply empathetic and is supportive of her. We've seen with Renarin that Adolin doesn't need to fully understand what is happening to be supportive. He may not always know what's going on with Renarin or what Renarin's thinking, but he's still powerfully supportive and positive. I think we'll see this in his relationship with Shallan as well. Does Adolin know, totally, what's happening with Shallan's personas? Probably not. He might not ever fully understand, but as with his brother, he's supportive of her and is ready to help in whatever way he can.

Sidenote that this theme of true understanding not being necessary for true love is one that Brandon has touched on before, but I think we'll see it in a greater depth. I'll avoid spoilers, but Vin falls into a similar crux of worrying that the person she loves doesn't understand her and therefore thinks that another person who does understand her better is a better match, yet in the end, that's not the case. I think this is a really mature view of relationships, because, deep down, no one will ever truly 100% understand anyone else, even if you're a perfect match. There will always be aspects of even the healthiest romantic couples in that they don't have a perfect understanding of one another, hence why relationships take work and need open communication to be successful, because this is a difficulty that all people must confront, the deep and incomprehensible uniqueness of all. 

I think Vin and Elend are going to be a good parallel for Shallan and Adolin. They might be endgame, but even after Vin and Elend entered a true committed relationship, they still had personal difficulties that they had to work through. It didn't mean that they were wrong for one another, but they still had those conflicts as plot points. I think the "love triangle" side of this relationship is done for. Kaladin accepts that he never really loved Shallan. Shallan chooses Adolin and marries him. Everyone is satisfied on that front and the entanglement of that subplot is resolved and concluded. That doesn't mean that Shallan's personal identity issues are solved (far from it) or that Shallan and Adolin won't have relationship conflicts that they'll need to work through as a married couple. Both of those things are almost certainly going to happen. But I don't think those relationship conflicts are going to come from Kaladin. That chapter of this narrative is finished and we're moving on to new things. I'm excited to see what those things are as we move into later books.

TL;DR:

Adolin's a good person whose killing of Sadeas was justified and therefore could not have sustained a deep crisis of moral character on its own, but may open the path to a further exploration of that side in the future with a different event.

Shallan and Kaladin's relationship followed established plotlines for a potential romance, but was written to subvert the end game relationship, and successfully accomplished this goal, giving an interesting and well-crafted conclusion to their romantic storyline.

Shallan and Adolin's relationship is endgame, but this doesn't mean that they are no longer going to face relationship conflict that they'll need to work through. It also does not mean that Shallan's own personal conflicts of identity are solved.

And, with that, I look back upon myself and, with the folly of man, that I thought this was somehow going to be less than two thousand words. Ha, Feather, thou knowest not thyself. Our grand total for this post is, of course, 2,208. Great job, me. You played yourself.

[aemetha]

I think this specific incident raises a larger philosophical question. Is the killing of an immoral person a moral act solely because it reduces the quantifiable immorality of the world? In other words, do we measure the immorality of an act by the motives and circumstances directly involved in the act, or by the larger implications of the act.

My own view is that we measure it by the motives and circumstances of the act, because to consider the larger implications moves us from fact into inference. Justice is evidence based.

On the romance angle. I'm really not sold on any of the romances of the story. In many cases they come across to me as superficial, lacking the nuance of real relationships. As far as having an expectation of where Shallan would go, well, frankly I would have expected her to sleep with both of them, and then get upset that neither called her back. She's a teenage girl with even greater self-identity and self-worth problems than the norm. Sorry if that seems like a generalisation to anyone, I'm not saying it flippantly, but that particular generalisation of teen behaviour is based on reality.

I can't really say I would want any of the pairings so much as all of the pairings. I don't think marrying at this age is helpful to them. I think having failed relationships is a prerequisite to having a stable relationship that isn't maintained solely by obligation. Adolin is probably reasonably well adjusted (probably a step too far actually) in this regard, but Shallan has only had one failed relationship, and one party was never committed to that relationship to begin with. In other words, I'd be okay with them hooking up with each other interchangeably, not because I voyeuristic-ally enjoy the idea of casual relationships, but because that's how people learn to have committed relationships - by learning from mistakes made in casual relationships.

I would actually prefer that Shallan was older than she is. I think the depiction of her is more consistent with a slightly more mature, but in some respects developmentally stunted young woman.

Edited December 10, 2017 by aemetha

[Greywatch]

21 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I would actually prefer that Shallan was older than she is. I think the depiction of her is more consistent with a slightly more mature, but in some respects developmentally stunted young woman.

This part I have to disagree with. Shallan is both more mature for her age and struggling because she's been through trauma and has had to be the pillar of emotional support for her siblings - many younger people who've gone through trauma seem older than they are.

[aemetha]

2 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

This part I have to disagree with. Shallan is both more mature for her age and struggling because she's been through trauma and has had to be the pillar of emotional support for her siblings - many younger people who've gone through trauma seem older than they are.

I think I may have truncated that thought a bit. What I was trying, in the roundabout way my brain works, to say, is that I would prefer Shallan was older because she would likely have had time to experience more relationships (romantic or otherwise) and I could reconcile the stability of the current relationship in that way. I feel like I've been pushed a little in this series to believe that she is capable of having stable relationships because she thought a lot about it. That isn't consistent with my observations or studies. It is necessary to experience things in order to develop the understanding to properly think on them and reach stable conclusions. Of course, she could always get divorced from Adolin 10 words into book 4 and completely throw out my impression of how this has gone.

[aemetha]

I think an example is in order. From mistborn era 2:

Spoiler

I found the stability of the Wax and Steris romance much more believable because it's both implied and outright stated that they each in their own unique way experienced their Wayne and MeLann moments in the past. Steris in her failed attempts to court, and how she dwells on her inability to properly socialise and seeks to create a structure of interaction for herself, and Wax through his past relationship and its highs and lows. I don't feel like Shallan learned anything like that, and now a stable relationship for her after all the indecision and no experience feels forced.

 

[Ailvara]

Just give cents from me. If we assume, that Shallan is relatively herself at the end of OB, she seems well paired with Adolin. But if we assume, that 2/3 of her are not completely on board with all this, it's only Shallan persona who is happy and it doesn't look very well for post-reintegration future. So I don't know, if that's the key deal-breaker here, is anyone here who doesn't fall into these lines of thinking? 

[Vissy]

 

9 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Just give cents from me. If we assume, that Shallan is relatively herself at the end of OB, she seems well paired with Adolin. But if we assume, that 2/3 of her are not completely on board with all this, it's only Shallan persona who is happy and it doesn't look very well for post-reintegration future. So I don't know, if that's the key deal-breaker here, is anyone here who doesn't fall into these lines of thinking? 

Yep, I think this hits the core issue. Shallan is broken at the moment. 

So I don't know how to split up quotes with this format, but I'll answer like this. I'm sorry if it's kinda weird to read, or if the detail I answer in is annoying! I genuinely don't mean to annoy. I just enjoy these discussions.

9 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Just give cents from me. If we assume, that Shallan is relatively herself at the end of OB, she seems well paired with Adolin. But if we assume, that 2/3 of her are not completely on board with all this, it's only Shallan persona who is happy and it doesn't look very well for post-reintegration future. So I don't know, if that's the key deal-breaker here, is anyone here who doesn't fall into these lines of thinking? 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

Boy there's a lot going on in this thread, huh?

I've been debating whether or not it's a good idea to step into the boiling waters here, but what the heck, I'll throw my hat in the ring. I'm just going to try to broad strokes some things because I don't want to end up falling into writing a 2,000 word response. I have better things to do with my Sunday afternoon. If I oversimplify your points, please understand that it's not an attack or misrepresentation, just me trying to look at the big picture here.

I have better things to do as well, but somehow I found some time to comment too! As an aside, I'm fine with any resolution to the romance subplot, but I slightly lean towards Shalladin at the moment! 

That said, I feel like a lot of the reason that this thread has shifted here is that there's a majority of Kaladin/Shallan shippers who are trying to elucidate why they feel Adolin is the wrong pick for Shallan, but from my perspective, this discussion ended up shifting in an echo chamber sort of way to a characterization of Adolin that I simply don't find tenable. Adolin as a sadist or a sociopath? I'm almost amused that a thread that could accuse him of being too much of a picture-perfect Prince Charming is also saying that he's a barely restrained rage monster who loves killing and seeing his victims suffer. 

Nobody is talking about Adolin as the typical "Hollywood psychopath." I don't know if you read the previous posts, but I think it was said several times. So I guess that's... misrepresentation number one?

Anyway, onto the point. Could you elaborate on the "characterization of Adolin that I simply don't find tenable"? What in this thread exactly don't you find tenable, because it seems like nothing in the thread matches your idea of the characterization Adolin has received here. 

Adolin's an incredibly moral character, from where I stand. He's deeply empathetic and naturally kind. He has a strong sense of right and wrong, but it doesn't always line up with his father's sense of right and wrong, which causes tension between them. His killing of Sadeas was not the first act of a potential serial killer or anything so macabre, it was a frustrated sense of vigilante justice. Sadeas was unquestionably a monster who tried, on multiple occasions, to not only kill Dalinar and Adolin, but also successfully murdered over half of the Kholin soldiers, innocent men who had absolutely nothing to do with the feud. And the Alethi justice system did nothing. Sadeas was untouchable, save for some very weird loopholes in a dueling match with a boon. Sadeas gloated in this and made it clear to Adolin that he wasn't ever going to stop, so... Adolin stopped him.

Yep, I agree. Adolin is a naturally kind character. He's a naturally kind character who also murdered in rage, and while Sadeas definitely deserved to die, it's not in Brandon's style to leave things like this just floating about. Again, maybe you haven't read many of the previous posts, but the point was always that Brandon is obviously setting Adolin up for further character development down the line, with this murder acting a major part.

This isn't a misplaced anger or a sign of moral deficiency, this is someone coming face-to-face with their attempted murdered who smiles at them and says "I'm going to try to murder you and everyone you love again and there's nothing you can do to stop me." So Adolin stops him. I don't think it was the wisest course of action, but I think the fallout in Oathbringer (or lack thereof) shows that the characters figured out what Adolin did in that moment: Sadeas needed to be dealt with and in this case, there wasn't an easy or clean way to do it. It's unfortunate that it came to knives in the dark, but well... it kind of needed to.

I think this falls under my reply above.

It's not something I would have realized going into Oathbringer, but in hindsight, I don't think Sadeas' murder could have been the big crisis of conscience that some were expecting, because even though Adolin might have had the "am I a cold-blooded killer?" question kicking around, at some point someone would have said "okay yeah bud, you might have killed him, but he didn't really leave you any other choice."

I don't know, is it? The murder shows that Dalinar's opinion of Adolin was deeply misguided. It shows that he's not the guy he was set up to be. It shows that he's far more similar to his father, the Blackthorn, than you'd originally have thought just from meeting him. And when Adolin learns how Evi died, I think that question of "am I a cold-blooded killer?" is going to become a very persistent source of worry to him. After all, he is a very good man by all accounts.

Perhaps that's the Skybreaker in me who feels that the legal system failed in Sadeas' case and Adolin killing him was a restoration of justice in this case, but that's just me. Brandon did say that Skybreakers would not find Adolin's actions objectionable, so that makes sense.

That said, I don't necessarily think it means that this plot is entirely wrapped up just yet. The focus on Sadeas might be over, but I think we'll see more out of Adolin and struggling with this in the future. Perhaps it'll be a barrier that he has to work through in order to reawaken Maya, that she would be hesitant to respond to someone who did such a thing, as she starts coming back to life. Perhaps Adolin will have another moment of snapping and will attack or kill someone else, perhaps this time someone who isn't as much of an irredeemable monster as Sadeas was and he'll have to confront that. There's still possibilities. I don't think this one's fully resolved.

Agreed.

However, what I do think is fully resolved is the love triangle, to drag this thread back on track.

I'll admit, I was never a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and I ground my teeth through every one of their scenes in WoR and OB until the end. A lot of that had to do with the fact that I felt those scenes were set up in a very cliche way, and that we were exploring cliche scenes that seemed to paste a straightforward boy-meets-girl progression over a slew of dangerously unhealthy traumatic pasts and incompatibilities. I remember thinking in Words of Radiance that the only way I'd enjoy the Kaladin and Shallan scenes were if they were leading to a subversion. Which, it was, so in hindsight, I like those scenes a lot.

So you start your post by disparaging Kaladin/Shallan shippers and then admit that you can't stand Kaladin / Shallan scenes? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

I agree that they're clichés, but clichés are what they are because they work - most of the time. I would point out, though, that bringing up clichés might not be the best way to argue here. Adolin and Shallan's relationship is also very clichéd, and by Sanderson's standards, it's actually even more clichéd than the Shalladin relationship. How many times has Sanderson carried out the "arranged marriage surprisingly working out" - cliché before? Practically half of his Cosmere books have romance subplots like that.

In short, I should have trusted Brandon. I was afraid that he was ignoring the deeper issues between Kaladin and Shallan by fitting them into these puzzle-piece perfect relationship scenes. I feared that we were falling into a cookie-cutter plan without considering the true implications of it, and if that was what was happening, I was wholeheartedly against it. Thankfully, Brandon was on the same wavelength as me. Kaladin and Shallan were a subversion and though I was worried that they weren't going in that direction at first, now that I can see that they did, I think it turned out very well.

What are these deeper issues that you're talking about? I'd genuinely like to hear you elaborate on them. I'll also mention again that your criticism of Shalladin, cookie-cutter plan and puzzle-piece perfect relationship, could just as well, if not even more, apply to Shadolin. We can't yet tell if the scenes between Shallan and Kaladin are subversion, though. So I'll have to disagree there.

Perhaps Words of Radiance was a bit on-the-nose with the Kaladin and Shallan set up, but in hindsight, the point of those scenes was to take two incompatible characters and run them through the steps of the romantic relationships, so that later, we could see why that setup was doomed to fail. The infamous "storms she smiled anyway" scene reads on the surface as a beautiful character moment (which drove me nuts because it was super unhealthy, right?). And yet, when we revisit that philosophy of Kaladin idolizing Shallan's dangerous coping mechanisms on the ship in Oathbringer, we see that as they tread that path once more, the conversation collapses as Shallan hears Kaladin tell her that he wishes he had what she considers to be her greatest flaw, and we see that Kaladin doesn't understand the true depths of how this has damaged her and how insidious her repression is. He buys the lie, he sees the smiles and the laughter and thinks its genuine. And of course he would. Kaladin wishes he could smile and laugh and thinks anything that allows Shallan to do that is a good thing, when both Shallan and the audience know it is exactly the opposite.

Again, I don't think we can say that Shallan and Kaladin are romantically incompatible with any certainty just yet (whatever that means). What do you mean with the chasm scene being super unhealthy? 

As far as Kaladin not getting Shallan in that Shadesmar scene goes, I'm not sure. I can't find the proper scene in my copy of the book, even though I know the area where it should be, so I can't even confirm.

Same with Shallan and Kaladin's "meet cute," the Boots scene, which again, on surface level seems like a hilarious comedy of errors sort of scene. Shallan's doing an outrageous accent, Kaladin's grumbly at having to deal with a stupid lighteyes, it means that they both start off on the wrong foot and will now how a hilarious reason to snipe at each other and have to bond through later in the chasms. Which, again, feels a bit RomCom 101, but also ignores the deeper meaning of a lighteyes playing games with a darkeyes she just met, simply because her rank allows her to do so. Taking the boots of a soldier while he's on a shift, especially on the contrived premise that she's foreign royalty to got offended by misunderstanding him, is a cruel action, but Shallan doesn't consider the implications for Kaladin as she's doing this. She's just having fun playing games with him and thinks that she wants shoes.

At that time, Shallan hadn't developed any feelings for Kaladin yet. By OB, she clearly has (as represented by Veil).

If we were simply supposed to take the surface meet cute at face value and laugh at how humorous it is, then that's an issue, as we ignore the underlying truths and characterization of both Kaladin and Shallan and what this reveals about both of them as people. And yet, it's not just a surface meet cute. It is meant to be revelatory of their issues and show the problems between them, under the disguise of a normal, run-of-the-mill flirty ship scene.

That's... a rather bold statement to make about that scene. I don't agree with it at all, honestly. Could you try to argue for it in some way? Has Brandon done this sort of thing before? Does it fit his style?

In hindsight, Brandon's set up of Kaladin and Shallan and their relationship arc, ending finally in them both accepting that they aren't right for each other is masterful, especially for an author like Brandon, whose strengths have never fallen in writing romances. That he wrote a great long-con amicably failed romance of two characters who initially seemed like they could work well but eventually revealed that such was not the case was really well done. I even like, again in hindsight, the way he moved Shallan and Kaladin through those almost stock scenes of setting up a potential relationship, but used them to subtly reveal their flaws rather than actually bringing them together. Was there a lot of "evidence" for Shallan and Kaladin as a relationship? Yes, but all of it was two-fold, in that as it openly seemed to be setting them up together, it was actually revealing why they would never end up together all along. Masterfully clever, if you ask me.

It's too early to make that call, honestly. Shallan, parts of her, still have feelings for Kaladin. They are currently being suppressed. If anything, this romance subplot won't be resolved until Shallan manages to heal her psyche, perhaps by swearing the Fifth Ideal. 

Now, I haven't really gone into a depth of why I think Shallan and Adolin are good together, but I can hit the high points. Adolin is a great person, and he is especially a great match for Shallan. He is deeply empathetic and is supportive of her. We've seen with Renarin that Adolin doesn't need to fully understand what is happening to be supportive. He may not always know what's going on with Renarin or what Renarin's thinking, but he's still powerfully supportive and positive. I think we'll see this in his relationship with Shallan as well. Does Adolin know, totally, what's happening with Shallan's personas? Probably not. He might not ever fully understand, but as with his brother, he's supportive of her and is ready to help in whatever way he can.

Could you go more in-depth on that? Perhaps address the point about Adolin "identifying" one of Shallan's many personalities, and telling her that it is the "real" her - at the cost of suppressing other parts of her personality?

Sidenote that this theme of true understanding not being necessary for true love is one that Brandon has touched on before, but I think we'll see it in a greater depth. I'll avoid spoilers, but Vin falls into a similar crux of worrying that the person she loves doesn't understand her and therefore thinks that another person who does understand her better is a better match, yet in the end, that's not the case. I think this is a really mature view of relationships, because, deep down, no one will ever truly 100% understand anyone else, even if you're a perfect match. There will always be aspects of even the healthiest romantic couples in that they don't have a perfect understanding of one another, hence why relationships take work and need open communication to be successful, because this is a difficulty that all people must confront, the deep and incomprehensible uniqueness of all. 

Zane was... a very strange subplot xD

I think Vin and Elend are going to be a good parallel for Shallan and Adolin. They might be endgame, but even after Vin and Elend entered a true committed relationship, they still had personal difficulties that they had to work through. It didn't mean that they were wrong for one another, but they still had those conflicts as plot points. I think the "love triangle" side of this relationship is done for. Kaladin accepts that he never really loved Shallan. Shallan chooses Adolin and marries him. Everyone is satisfied on that front and the entanglement of that subplot is resolved and concluded. That doesn't mean that Shallan's personal identity issues are solved (far from it) or that Shallan and Adolin won't have relationship conflicts that they'll need to work through as a married couple. Both of those things are almost certainly going to happen. But I don't think those relationship conflicts are going to come from Kaladin. That chapter of this narrative is finished and we're moving on to new things. I'm excited to see what those things are as we move into later books.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Vissy
adding quote :D

[Dreamstorm]

@Ookla the Feathered there's a lot going on in your post too  I first off want to say thank you for contributing, as this is hands down the best argument I've seen for Shallan/Adolin being the endgame.  Hands down.  I think you fit the events within a literary perspective really well, and I've been looking for that ever since I finished OB!  I want to respond to some of your specific points, but the first thing I want to note is that you came into OB really wanting Shallan to end up with Adolin (because you didn't like the Kaladin set-up), therefore you are looking at everything that happened in terms of justifying why it worked out and Shallan/Adolin is better.  That's no different from someone who came into OB really wanting Shallan to end up with Kaladin (and probably for the exact same reason you didn't - those scenes which you hate, and rightfully point out display important character flaws  - worked for them as a cute set-up) who now are justifying why the ending we got is not the real ending.  So, just keep in mind everyone is biased   Just as an aside, I had no strong preference for either ship pre-OB; I thought Brandon was leaning Shalladin, but thought that could change.  I came out of OB very pro-Shalladin though, though I didn't want Shallan to be in a relationship with Kaladin at the end of OB; lots of growth needed for both of them for that to happen.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

That said, I feel like a lot of the reason that this thread has shifted here is that there's a majority of Kaladin/Shallan shippers who are trying to elucidate why they feel Adolin is the wrong pick for Shallan, but from my perspective, this discussion ended up shifting in an echo chamber sort of way to a characterization of Adolin that I simply don't find tenable. Adolin as a sadist or a sociopath? I'm almost amused that a thread that could accuse him of being too much of a picture-perfect Prince Charming is also saying that he's a barely restrained rage monster who loves killing and seeing his victims suffer. 

I think there's quite a bit of exaggeration going on here (e.g. sociopath vs. one instance of socipathic behavior), and I don't think anyone has even mentioned (for pages and pages) in respect to the Adolin discussion that it has anything to do with him being right for Shallan or not.  I don't think Shallan even comes into the discussion.  I mean, in world, Shallan is fine with Adolin's murder of Sadeas, so I don't even see that murder as a valid reason for saying that Adolin wouldn't work for Shallan.  I think people have different viewpoints about the morality of Adolin's actions and whether or not that will have future consequences, which is admittedly not the exact topic of this thread, but since it's gone on for over 50 pages, it's bled into a bunch of different tangents.  But I think trying to pin people's various feelings on Adolin's morality in the Sadeas killing and how the author might view that in terms of a further plot arc into "you are just trying to find ways to hate Adolin because Shallan chose him" is patronizing to the discussion as a whole.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

That said, I don't necessarily think it means that this plot is entirely wrapped up just yet. The focus on Sadeas might be over, but I think we'll see more out of Adolin and struggling with this in the future. Perhaps it'll be a barrier that he has to work through in order to reawaken Maya, that she would be hesitant to respond to someone who did such a thing, as she starts coming back to life. Perhaps Adolin will have another moment of snapping and will attack or kill someone else, perhaps this time someone who isn't as much of an irredeemable monster as Sadeas was and he'll have to confront that. There's still possibilities. I don't think this one's fully resolved.

In fact, this above is where I would say the bulk of posters seems to come out - that there will be something else in the future related to the Sadeas murder, and it is likely that Adolin's emotions around his killing of Sadeas (how he felt at the time and/or how he came to terms with it) will have future implications.  I think your reasoning for why you feel the way you feel regarding the morality of Adolin's actions was well-thought out and I 100% agree with your conclusion, but I wish it hadn't come after making a blanket statement that the majority posters were only dissecting Adolin's character arc as a means to dismiss his relationship with Shallan.  Ok, I made that point and will move on.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

In hindsight, Brandon's set up of Kaladin and Shallan and their relationship arc, ending finally in them both accepting that they aren't right for each other is masterful, especially for an author like Brandon, whose strengths have never fallen in writing romances. That he wrote a great long-con amicably failed romance of two characters who initially seemed like they could work well but eventually revealed that such was not the case was really well done. I even like, again in hindsight, the way he moved Shallan and Kaladin through those almost stock scenes of setting up a potential relationship, but used them to subtly reveal their flaws rather than actually bringing them together. Was there a lot of "evidence" for Shallan and Kaladin as a relationship? Yes, but all of it was two-fold, in that as it openly seemed to be setting them up together, it was actually revealing why they would never end up together all along. Masterfully clever, if you ask me.

I find this incredibly interesting.  I have two main issues with the end of the love triangle.  I often put this one second, but I'll deal with it first.  I felt like it was a huge bait and switch, not only in terms of these meet cute shipping scenes, but in terms of oodles of symbolism and foreshadowing that ties Kaladin and Shallan together beyond the scenes themselves.  By the way, I think you break down the boots scene and "Kaladin thinks it's good Shallan hides her pain" scenes (chasms and Honor's path) really well, and I think it came across strongly in the narrative that Shallan's treatment of Kaladin in the boots scene was reprehensible (he takes her to task about this in the chasms and she agrees it displayed her prejudice) as well as the fact Kaladin is incorrectly idolizing Shallan's ability to shove down emotions (it's clear this shuts down their conversation and is referenced in Shallan's speech to Adolin about why she thinks Adolin is better for her.)  Where we differ, is whether or not a "long-con" is a good thing to give your readers.  It's clear it worked for you, but I wonder if it would have worked had it been twisted around.  If you liked the romantic set-up "stock scenes" and found a bunch of literary devices which seemed to indicate that was the author's intent but disliked the set-up for the other romance, would you still be happy at the bait and switch?  I think you're a writer (right?), so it could be that you're happy with the subversion element as a literary device regardless, but of course there are many readers who aren't happy being taken on a long-con.  (I would also argue our "con" didn't get cut off when Shallan chose Adolin so we're still being conned, but you can read all those points in the thread.)

ETA:  I just want to clarify that I don't mind a "what you see is not what you get" type of subversion, but instead the subversion of adding little literary elements to pull two characters together and then having that lead to nothing.  For the "what you see if not what you get" type of subversion (I call it misdirection), you would have to make Kaladin the obvious end game in the explicit storyline with Adolin in the background and a bunch of foreshadowing that Adolin was going to be the actual choice.  Instead we got the opposite, which is why it felt to me less like a plot twist and more like, just as you described it, a con.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

Adolin is a great person, and he is especially a great match for Shallan. He is deeply empathetic and is supportive of her. We've seen with Renarin that Adolin doesn't need to fully understand what is happening to be supportive. He may not always know what's going on with Renarin or what Renarin's thinking, but he's still powerfully supportive and positive.

I'm not going to quote all your Adolin stuff, but suffice to say I agree with you on all of it!  I think Adolin and Shallan have a great foundation for a solid relationship.  Now aside from the fact I don't like being conned (see above), my main issue with Shallan choosing Adolin is not that she chose him, but how she did it.  I find the idea of any woman sitting down, a man holding her hand and staring into her eyes and seeing the "real" her (or the "best" persona, or however you're interpreting what Adolin did - not going down that path about what he selects and what that could mean), to be offensive.  This is obviously a personal preference; I want my female heroines to be able to stand on their own feet and recognize for themselves their real self/best persona, and then they can run into their man's waiting arms and do their romance thing.  People (Shadolin supporters actually!) have redesigned that scene so it could have worked that way, so it could have totally been possible to make it a self-actualizing moment for Shallan, instead of one that, to me, makes her look weak.  This is of course my personal opinion, just like it's your personal opinion that Adolin is a great match for Shallan.  I think we both realize that the author can make choices for characters which we wouldn't want the characters to make, and I'm very disappointed with how Shallan makes her choice (again not who, but how), because I think it flies in the face of the strength I've seen in Brandon's other female characters.  Even if the Adolin romance sticks, I'm hoping this aspect can be turned around in the next few books.

Anyway, I wanted to reiterate I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts in the post!  I understand that what I see as a poor literary choice (laying a bunch of literary foundation for a relationship and then subverting it) you see as a delightfully subversive long-con by the author.  So I appreciate that perspective!

Edited December 11, 2017 by Dreamstorm