Why do Returned need investiture to stay alive?

[+Extesian]

An issue of Cognitive Shadows, immortality and Returned is raised quite often. I’ll say very simply why I think Returned need investiture to stay alive, while other Cognitive Shadows don’t seem to.

 

The Shard that Returns them is Endowment. The Intent is about giving. The conclusion of their ‘life’ will be to give their Divine Breath away. But the continuation of their life depends on others giving to them.

 

We know that “The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”

 

So yes, it’s probably likely a person, to Return, has to give of themselves during their lives to be offered the chance (both Lightsong and Blushweaver did so).

 

But much more importantly, I believe the only reason Returned need investiture regularly to keep their body stapled to their Cognitive Shadow is because Endowment regards ‘giving’ as a two-way process. She gives to someone that has given themselves, but she also makes it so that person cannot survive unless others give to them.

 

So nothing realmatic, nothing that affects the way we think about other Cognitive Shadows, nothing innate to Cognitive Shadows. Returned are unique in needing investiture because the Intent of their Shard demands it. It’s not enough to give to others. You have to persuade others to give to you.

 

There are other obvious possibilities - it could be actually having a body. Other Cognitive Shadows we've seen haven't had physical bodies, and others like the Heralds seem to be slightly different. But I think it's not the body itself. I think a Cognitive Shadow stapled to a body from another magic system (let's say Scadrial - if Kelsier gets one) will not need investiture to keep them 'alive'. We'll see. I'm curious to hear any counter-arguments. But yeah, I think it's purely the nature of the Shard in this case.

 

Discuss!

Edited July 27, 2017 by Extesian
Accidentally posted too early, adding in final thoughts

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

An issue of Cognitive Shadows, immortality and Returned is raised quite often. I’ll say very simply why I think Returned need investiture to stay alive, while other Cognitive Shadows don’t seem to.

 

The Shard that Returns them is Endowment. The Intent is about giving. The conclusion of their ‘life’ will be to give their Divine Breath away. But the continuation of their life depends on others giving to them.

 

We know that “The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”

 

So yes, it’s probably likely a person, to Return, has to give of themselves during their lives to be offered the chance (both Lightsong and Blushweaver did so).

 

But much more importantly, I believe the only reason Returned need investiture regularly to keep their body stapled to their Cognitive Shadow is because Endowment regards ‘giving’ as a two-way process. She gives to someone that has given themselves, but she also makes it so that person cannot survive unless others give to them.

 

So nothing realmatic, nothing that affects the way we think about other Cognitive Shadows, nothing innate to Cognitive Shadows. Returned are unique in needing investiture because the Intent of their Shard demands it. It’s not enough to give to others. You have to persuade others to give to you.

(I took this as assumed knowledge, so this is more for the people out there who often wonder. If anyone disagrees though, let's discuss)

Well, have you also considered that it could be their body? Cosmere works typically stick to what would happen in real life, and you assume that anything else is related to Investiture. As far I know, not needing food, or being able to get drunk, or all the other perks of being a Returned aren't things normal people get. I suspect that that is why investiture is required. As for why Endowment doesn't simply give a stream of it herself, that might be because of her intent.

Something else that might require investiture: Keeping their Cognitive Shadow in a body. This might explain why the lack of investiture results in the Body and the Cognitive Shadow separating (ie death).

[+Extesian]

Thanks @Lord Maelstrom . And sorry, you posted quickly after I accidentally posted, I noticed this after editing. So yeah entirely right, it may just be the fact there’s a physical body. But I feel like that’s wrong. The Heralds probably don’t need investiture to survive. But more than that I feel that the act of ‘stapling’ a CS onto a body has no inherent realmatic reason why that should require investiture on an ongoing basis to maintain that connection. That doesn’t make logical sense to me, even though we’ve always been told that. I believe, assuming Kelsier has a body, he won’t have the same requirement. You have an interesting point about the non-magical living requirements. They don’t need to eat, so maybe it’s like healing, where their body constantly matches their spiritual ideal, and that takes kinetic investiture, rather than innate investiture, to do – and that need for kinetic investiture is why they need Breath. Buuuut – I feel that’s not right in this case. Could be though. Which is why I posted this theory - to discuss

Edited July 27, 2017 by Extesian

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Thanks @Lord Maelstrom. And sorry, you posted quickly after I accidentally posted, I noticed this after editing. So yeah entirely right, it may just be the fact there’s a physical body. But I feel like that’s wrong. The Heralds probably don’t need investiture to survive. But more than that I feel that the act of ‘stapling’ a CS onto a body has no inherent realmatic reason why that should require investiture on an ongoing basis to maintain that connection. That doesn’t make logical sense to me, even though we’ve always been told that. I believe, assuming Kelsier has a body, he won’t have the same requirement. You have an interesting point about the non-magical living requirements. They don’t need to eat, so maybe it’s like healing, where their body constantly matches their spiritual ideal, and that takes kinetic investiture, rather than innate investiture, to do – and that need for kinetic investiture is why they need Breath. Buuuut – I feel that’s not right in this case. Could be though. Which is why I posted this theory J

It actually makes me thing of Elantris. Elantrians are under similar circumstances in that their bodies have similar perks. Yet as far as I can tell, Elantrians aren't Cognitive Shadows. But the existence of the Reod (or Shaod, whichever is connected to the Chasm) and how their bodies decayed makes me think that they also have a constant stream of Investiture giving them those perks. As to why they lived at all, I'd mention that they still had a stream, just a much smaller trickle than they needed to get the full benefits.

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

It actually makes me thing of Elantris. Elantrians are under similar circumstances in that their bodies have similar perks. Yet as far as I can tell, Elantrians aren't Cognitive Shadows. But the existence of the Reod (or Shaod, whichever is connected to the Chasm) and how their bodies decayed makes me think that they also have a constant stream of Investiture giving them those perks. As to why they lived at all, I'd mention that they still had a stream, just a much smaller trickle than they needed to get the full benefits.

Elantrians seem more in line with a person who has attained the upper heightenings. Their bodies have been transformed, but they aren't truly invested. If they were this wouldn't be the case. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1113#6

Quote

QUESTION

Could an Elantrian wield Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's possible but would be very dangerous - you'd have to figure out a way to connect Nightblood with a local source of Investiture.

If Nightblood would just kill them, then they aren't actually holding any investiture. This implies that unless they've used AonDor extensively, they would be forced beyond almost immediately like a normal person. 

The Reod interrupted the physical change, but there really isn't a Spiritual or Cognitive change beyond their ability to access the Dor itself. 

@Extesian I fully agree with your OP.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Just now, Calderis said:

If Nightblood would just kill them, then they aren't actually holding any investiture. This implies that unless they've used AonDor extensively, they would be forced beyond almost immediately like a normal person. 

Or it could mean that the stream of investiture that gives them their elantrian bodies doesn't have any surplus, and thus that since they don't have any investiture stored in their bodies, Nightblood would simply start using up all of the investiture keeping them alive, run out immediately, then kill them. Remember there is a difference between having a store of investiture (Metals, Breaths, Stormlight) and a stream of investiture (Aons). It seems to me that the Investiture of Aons goes directly into doing something, and isn't ever stored int he user. The exception would be with the Dor attacks that Raoden had.

[Fatling]

So since the nature of the discussion is about what determines the nature of investiture and its variety in the cosmere, the question in my mind is- why one week? Such a convenient period of time seems indicative to me that the nature of investure must be somewhat related to the belief of its wielder (because otherwise the period of time would be arbitrarily random). But since the belief of the wielder is in the domain of the cognitive realm (probably), I would agree that the 'physical realm stapling' thing isn't a thing, it just depends on the Shard and the invested individual, like Endowment's the one that decided you have to pay breath to stay alive and collective humanity decided on the going rate of one breath per week. Now that I'm writing this it sounds a lot more absurd than it did in my head, but hey, if you never guess you will never come closer to getting it right (as if the cosmere's true nature is now one of those great truths of life that we can attain to if we are so diligent as to think about it for long enough)

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, Fatling said:

(as if the cosmere's true nature is now one of those great truths of life that we can attain to if we are so diligent as to think about it for long enough)

It's not? 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that you had an "arbitrary" number being very important on a specific world. 10 On Roshar (10 Heralds, 10 Surges, 10 Orders, etc.) 16 on Scadrial (16 metals, 16% taken by the mist), etc. I might be able to see more examples given time, but I'm kinda tired. Point is, I'm not surprised. Cosmere magic systems tend to pick a favorite number, and 7 could be Nalthis'.

[+hwiles]

I like the idea of the 1 breath per week requirement being derived from the magic system but...presumably, Endowment could just...not give people a divine breath if she (he?) didn't want to...

I think it's more likely a matter of pragmatism. If every Returned got to live indefinitely at no cost, they'd have no motivation to fulfill the purpose for which they Returned in the first place and would just pocket Endowments Investiture and walk away...

Lightsong expresses remorse at having to vampire away the Breath of children at one point IIRC; I always assumed this was a huge motivating factor for him in trying to find his "purpose."

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

I like the idea of the 1 breath per week requirement being derived from the magic system but...presumably, Endowment could just...not give people a divine breath if she (he?) didn't want to...

I think it's more likely a matter of pragmatism. If every Returned got to live indefinitely at no cost, they'd have no motivation to fulfill the purpose for which they Returned in the first place and would just pocket Endowments Investiture and walk away...

Lightsong expresses remorse at having to vampire away the Breath of children at one point IIRC; I always assumed this was a huge motivating factor for him in trying to find his "purpose."

I figure that's why Endowment doesn't supply the Investiture directly. My point was about why you would need Investiture in the first place. And yes, I agree, Endowment is probably hand choosing the Returned.

 

PS: Has Endowment's gender been confirmed? For some reason I think of Endowment as a her, but can't seem to remember why.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

PS: Has Endowment's gender been confirmed? For some reason I think of Endowment as a her, but can't seem to remember why.

I'll try and dig once I'm more awake, but yes Edgli is confirmed as the female Vessel of Endowment 

[AbsentKeeper]

16 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

PS: Has Endowment's gender been confirmed? For some reason I think of Endowment as a her, but can't seem to remember why.

I'm almost certain that it hasn't been confirmed yet. I read a thread a couple weeks ago where people were discussing it and it seemed pretty evenly split on opinions.

For my two cents, I think Endowment is female.

Edit:

@Calderis I didn't see your post at first, I know that it's confirmed that Edgli is Endowment, but I've seen a lot of debate still on whether Edgli is female or not, where was this confirmed?

Edited July 28, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Calderis]

44 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

@Calderis I didn't see your post at first, I know that it's confirmed that Edgli is Endowment, but I've seen a lot of debate still on whether Edgli is female or not, where was this confirmed?

And now I can't find it. 

Bother. 

[+Extesian]

39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And now I can't find it. 

Bother. 

I need to actually comment on all these posts on my own thread, but meanwhile

Quote

little wilson

"Is Endowment male or female?"

Brandon Sanderson

Endowment is female.

source

And it was little Wilson, so I'd say there's no chance at all that it's wrong.

I should add that I dont' believe we have confirmation that Endowment's vessel is Edgli. It's a good assumption but I've never seen that confirmed.

Edit - as to the rest of it, my comments below

Thanks for the input all.

On Elantrians, we know they are not Cognitive Shadows as they never ‘died’. I did a post on this a while back, I believe the mechanics are that they are normal magic users, but infused with investiture to the point of effectively coming savants (many caveats on that due to the rubbery definition of savant). As Calderis said, I think the appropriate analogy is to someone with the fifth heightening who is not a Returned (ie susebron rather than vasher). I think you and Maelstrom have it right, that basically when Elantrians use aons they are not actually channeling the investiture through their bodies in the way an allomancer does when burning metal. The super boost caused by the Elantris aon (when functioning) is designed to enhance their ability to pull more of the Dor in at once, but it seems like the kinetic investiture is not actually running through them. Either way though, as they’re not cognitive shadows, the point is somewhat moot.

On the issue of why one Breath a week (technically it’s the eighth day  they die) that’s exactly part of why I think this is a very deliberate choice by Endowment. If they needed investiture constantly, in small trickles, the first Returned would have died immediately. It needed to be a week to give them time to convince others to give Breath. The number of days could be a Nalthis number thing, but I think it’s more just a good balance of not too short and not too long, as hwiles said, it’s a motivating factor to give away the Breath eventually.

In the end I’m pretty confident that the design of all of this is about creating an ecosystem of ‘giving’ on Nalthis. The main question I haven’t satisfied myself with is whether that’s the only reason why Returned need regular investiture, or whether all Cognitive Shadows do and Endowment’s Intent is simply what defines the specifics.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Extesian

[Calderis]

16 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I should add that I dont' believe we have confirmation that Endowment's vessel is Edgli. It's a good assumption but I've never seen that confirmed.

Wow... You're right. The closest I could find is this 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#7

Quote

CHAOS

Is Edgli Endowment's real name?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO, however the flowers are related to Endowment somehow...

And that's not exactly decisive... 

Just, wow

[+Extesian]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wow... You're right. The closest I could find is this 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#7

And that's not exactly decisive... 

Just, wow

Hm I didn't realize people thought it had been confirmed. But then i am obsessed with everything Nalthis and everything Shardic, so Endowment WoBs are one of my true loves.

If it is a common misconception I'll throw it in the Unmaking the Canon thread. Unless some bright spark comes up with one I haven't seen

Edit - I actually forgot I did a theory on the mechanics of Breath and Divine Breath a while back which deals with some of this stuff. Not the principle in discussion here, but it relates somewhat, if anyone is interested. 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Extesian

[AbsentKeeper]

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

I should add that I dont' believe we have confirmation that Endowment's vessel is Edgli. It's a good assumption but I've never seen that confirmed.

Confirmation that Edgli is Endowment's Shardholder resides in this thread.

The actual photos containing the wording are not working, but people in this thread were acting like Brandon confirmed it.

Edit: There's a link to the confirmation of her gender on the same page, if anyone was still searching for it.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[+Extesian]

Oh wow, nice find @Cowmanthethird! Excuse me while I humbly take back any statements that I can find any WoB.

@The Sovereign, the photo of your signed book on that page is no longer available, any chance you could repost? Great WoB btw, can't believe I'd never seen it. 

[AbsentKeeper]

I really can't take the credit, its referenced on the coppermind 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[+Extesian]

Just now, Cowmanthethird said:

I really can't take the credit, its referenced on the coppermind 

Hey you still thought of looking there I checked theoryland, reddit, my database of 2017 WoBs, all my usual sources. I didn't stormin' think of Coppermind 

Sometimes I can't see the copper for the WoBs

[Nathrangking]

I do believe that simply put that provides the sustenance which makes them immortal.  In all  likelihood the actual body of the god is a manifestation of investiture. Hence without a fresh infusion like any sort of battery the charge will dissipate and the host will die.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I do believe that simply put that provides the sustenance which makes them immortal.  In all  likelihood the actual body of the god is a manifestation of investiture. Hence without a fresh infusion like any sort of battery the charge will dissipate and the host will die.

We understand this. The question is why. The only other type of Cognitive Shadow that we've seen 

SA spoilers 

Spoiler

The Heralds 

Don't have this requirement. 

Every other use of Breath is either recoverable, or a one use permanent effect. 

The Divine Breath's regular consumption is an anomaly. 

[Nathrangking]

That's true though one might ask if the above mentioned are in fact similar to the returned. The nature of Endowment requires that something be given that is how the intent and power of the shard works it thus follows that a being formed of said intent is only capable of holding together if that intent is fulfilled. Thus for example in the SA Honor's creation of Knights radiant can only function if the intent I.E. honor is intact. It may not be a choice that endowment makes it may simply be a fact which follows after its existence as a side effect. The fact that those who have given return is another example of a simple side effect therof. Not necessarily an indication of cognitive shadows at work.

[navahgar]

Sorry if this is a stupid question.  Also, this is one of my first posts so I'm not clear on the mechanics of quoting, hiding spoilers, etc.  I've tried to write vaguely enough not to reveal spoilers.  Sorry if it's confusing.

Calderis, how do we know that that other type of Cognitive Shadow we've seen doesn't have the requirement?  Is that confirmed anywhere?  Roshar is a great source of Investiture, as we know specifically in this context from a certain worldhopper's presence there.  Maybe all Cognitive Shadows in physical bodies do need a constant supply of investiture.