Expanding Elantris

[Oversleep]

5 hours ago, akasketch said:

Now that I think about it, I don't know that you can do that for Forgery. It's less of an end-positive Investiture and more of an End-Neutral.

Actually Forgery uses tons of Investiture. It's definitely end-positive.

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Question
What if you Soulstamped a city?

Brandon Sanderson
Soulstamped...the city. So if youre a really good Forger...It is possible to do things like that, but it requires a lot of work and time. Just one thing to keep in mind with Soulstamps is that, anything that does this...rewriting your Spirit Web, like, requires Investiture. A lot of Investiture. For instance, what Shai can do is really cool, but what an Elantrian can do is gonna look a lot more dramatic, right? Shooting a column of fire, you would say which takes more power, making the wall have flowers on it or shooting a column of fire? Making the wall have flowers takes a lot more Investiture. Its a lot easier to pull off some dramatic effects with others, but the actual changing of the soul...So just keep in mind the extent, right? This is why you dont see Shai Forging so the whole building disappears. Which is not outside of reason for a couple of Elantrians with the right program to put into place. But they could blow it up, essentially, thats what they would do. Do keep in mind, people like to ask, youve probably seen people ask, could I rewrite myself to be a Knight Radiant? Well there are certain things that you just cant fake without enough energy that it becomes impractical. Usually what I use as an example to that is: Yes, we can turn hydrogen into gold, if we wanted to. Right? It might take more energy than the earth creates in an entire year, but we can do that. I get a lot of questions like this is it possible, is it possible? You should probably be like, is it possible, with reasonable amounts of energy provided by one Invested person.

source

But anyway, any Selish magic is end-positive as it relies on channeling Investiture from the Dor through symbols.

If Investiture is obtained from nowhere or somewhere else - it's end-positive.

If Investiture obeys equivalent exchange (charging metalminds with your body, the amount of Breaths is fixed in isolated frame of reference - nobody being conceived on nobody dying) it's end-neutral.

If you end up with less Investiture in isolated frame of reference it's end-negative. Person A had 100 units of Investiture, you spike them, only like 70 units make it to the spike - even if you made all preparations you could have done, such as the process of spiking being made in a bathtub full of blood with virtually zero time between spiking the donor and recipient.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Oversleep

[WeiryWriter]

On 5/15/2017 at 8:51 PM, Extesian said:

I'd wondered about this before but I must admit I thought there was a pretty simple explanation. If I've missed something subtle (or obvious) let me know.

I figure the Shaod is a single, transformative event whereby the Dor, trapped in the Cognitive Realm and bursting to get out, was channelled through the mega-Aon that was Elantris to suddenly change the person to 'full' Elantrian. I don't believe the Shaod pre-dated Elantris, I think what would happen was, like with other magic systems, the magic users (and we still don't know how their 'chosen') would realize they could draw Aons magically and the more they did so, the closer the became to what we now consider Elantrians - ie the increasing use of investiture by drawing Aons would invest them and make them become more powerful. I think the point of Elantris was that it accelerated this process, and made it into one sudden transformation. When Elantris failed enough of that investiture was being channelled through to begin the sudden transformation, but not enough to complete it.

That was wordy. I'm saying I think pre-Elantris there was no Shaod, or at least the way we know it - there was something that triggered the ability to use Aons but it was a slow process of becoming more invested. During this time, someone realised they could supercharge it by building Elantris, which hijacked the normal, slow process. To use a stupid analogy, 'Elantrians' used to walk their way to being full Elantrian, slowly using the Aons. Elantris was like cutting off their legs but giving them a car to drive there. The Reod was stopping the supply of petrol. If that's right, it's not circular reasoning, it's just the mechanism that enables someone to use Aons went from a natural one to a supercharged one, and when that supercharged one failed, it collapsed the whole system.

Hmm, this is interesting. It seems like you are saying Elantrians are basically savants, and the Shaod kind of accelerates the process? I don't know if I'm totally on board with that, but I'll definitely be giving it some more thought.

My understanding of the situation is a little different though so I guess I'll share my thoughts on this as well. I think there are actually two things going on here. There's the Initiation, which gives people the ability to use AonDor, and there's the Transformation which turns them into silver-skinned immortals (or splotchy-skinned zombies as the case may be) and they are accomplished by two distinct processes. The Initiation is the more mysterious of the two, I do think it operates independently of Elantris (and began before the city was constructed, as there needed to be people who could use AonDor to construct it), and that the Reod had no effect on it. The Transformation on the other hand is entirely a function of Elantris, it's the result of a complex Aonic equation that automatically targets everyone who has been Initiated and "supercharges" them with the Dor making them immortal (amongst other enhancements).

Part of the reason I separate the two is that if the ability to use AonDor was tied into the incomplete Aonic equation it doesn't make sense to me that they would be able to use it before the equation was completed. Does that make sense?

[+Extesian]

8 hours ago, WeiryWriter said:

Hmm, this is interesting. It seems like you are saying Elantrians are basically savants, and the Shaod kind of accelerates the process? I don't know if I'm totally on board with that, but I'll definitely be giving it some more thought.

My understanding of the situation is a little different though so I guess I'll share my thoughts on this as well. I think there are actually two things going on here. There's the Initiation, which gives people the ability to use AonDor, and there's the Transformation which turns them into silver-skinned immortals (or splotchy-skinned zombies as the case may be) and they are accomplished by two distinct processes. The Initiation is the more mysterious of the two, I do think it operates independently of Elantris (and began before the city was constructed, as there needed to be people who could use AonDor to construct it), and that the Reod had no effect on it. The Transformation on the other hand is entirely a function of Elantris, it's the result of a complex Aonic equation that automatically targets everyone who has been Initiated and "supercharges" them with the Dor making them immortal (amongst other enhancements).

Part of the reason I separate the two is that if the ability to use AonDor was tied into the incomplete Aonic equation it doesn't make sense to me that they would be able to use it before the equation was completed. Does that make sense?

I'll explain my thoughts with a bit more clarity, as my original post was assuming it wasn't an original idea and the terminology is a bit unclear. 

For clarity, I'll use Elantrian to describe a user of AonDor that has completed full transformation into the silvery immortals we know and love; I'll use AonDor user to describe someone who has been 'initiated' into AonDor usage but has not been transformed; and I'll use Shaod to describe someone half-transformed, with the splotchy horribleness and inability to heal. An important definition here is also savant. I deliberately didn't use the word because a savant in the Cosmere has a certain definition and certain implications that even Brandon hasn't settled in his own mind, and is revising because it was moving away from its original meaning of dangerously permeating your soul with too much power. I accepted its use for communicative purposes but I won't call them savants here because of that issue. But I am proposing Elantris transforms AonDor users into something similar to a savant.

Firstly, I agree with everything you've said Weiry. The initiation is a separate and first event, we don't know why or how it happens, but it's a precursor to becoming 'Elantrian'. I don't know if it's similar to allomancy, where you have the ability embedded in your sDNA but it takes snapping to access it, or if it's one event that gives people both the ability and sufficient 'gap' in the spiritweb at the same time, but however it works it lets the person access AonDor and, no matter when in time (before or after Elantris) turns the person into am AonDor user. This took place before Elantris was built, but accesses the Dor at a low level, the level you see after Raoden teleports and tries to access it. 

Secondly, in the past, AonDor users figured out how to draw Aons, what they mean and most importantly how to program with them (as you say Weiry, to make equations that channel the Dor in complex ways). They then made an equation, got the resultant Aon and built Elantris into the shape of that Aon. That Aon enables a flood of controlled investiture to (and this is where I speculate on Realmatics in a way I'm happy to be picked apart) dramatically widen the channels in the AonDor user, giving access to massive amounts of Investiture trying to escape the Cognitive Realm, similar to what happens to a savant. The difference between an Elantrian (an AonDor user in the operating vicinity of Elantris when fully functional) and a savant is that the 'Elantris equation' enables that widening of 'channels' to be carefully controlled so the soul is not dangerously permeated with Investiture - it's safely permeated. An Elantrian leaving the operating vicinity of Elantris is still an AonDor user and still an Elantrian but can only draw the same amount of Investiture a pre-Elantris AonDor user could but they retain the benefits of folk transformation to an Elantrian (in the same way a Returned maintains their status even when they don't have any Breaths other than their divine one and they can't use it to awaken).

This explains how Elantris could be built by AonDor users who weren't yet Elantrians.

Thirdly, the Reod changed the necessary Elantris equation. This (in my mind) meant that initiated AonDor users in the operating vicinity of Elantris were still affected by the equation but in an abortive way. The broken equation starts the flood of Investiture into the AonDor user, widening their channels, but because the equation is incomplete they fail to transform into an Elantrian. This is where I speculate again but I see it like this. We know that access to far too much investiture will effectively vaporize a person (like anyone who ascends, or Vin drawing on the mists)

Quote

KAIMIPONO (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727

It's then investiture keeping them alive. I think the Elantris equation is carefully controlled to prevent too much investiture being drawn and balances it out to keep the person alive and in control of their investiture usage. When Elantris changed (and the equation changed because the Aons are based on the geography) it didn't allow so much investiture to flood through as to cause the same problems as someone tapping the mists, but it permeated the soul enough, ripped wide enough 'troughs' in the spiritweb to change the user's soul. Normally then investiture would enable the person's physical body to repair to match the soul. But because the equation is broken they can't access enough investiture to heal, to have their physical self change to match their spiritual self. Hence the Shaod. Once the Elantris equation was corrected that flood of investiture completed the equation for existing Shaod and enabled their physical selves to match their spiritual selves (and/or the changes to the spiritweb were completed).

So to summarize, initiation as an AonDor user is a separate, still-unknown thing. Once that happens, under normal circumstances they are a magic user like any other, moderately invested and able to access magic in a way that increases over time as their investiture channels widen. Elantris being built hijacked that so any AonDor initiate in the area has investiture forced through them in a controlled way, safely widening the channels in their spiritweb to make them so invested as to be immortal and giving them access to a huge Dor-doorway, because their spiritweb changes and the investiture 'heals' them to match their physical body to their now-changed spiritual aspect. When Elantris fails (when the equation changes) their spiritweb is changed, but not properly because the equation is incomplete, and because they can't access enough investiture to heal (to change their physical body to match their spiritual self) their body can no longer heal itself, investiture is needed to do that. I'll note that one thing I'm unsure of but doesn't matter as much for this theory is whether the faulty equation fully transforms their spiritweb, or partially, but either way they can't access enough investiture to match their physical body to it, and because the need for investiture has effectively replaced their own immune system/ability for their body to heal itself, they can't physical heal. 

I hope that makes some sense!

Edit - actually I hope it's not bad etiquette but I'll put this in a new theory because it's quite detailed. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Extesian

[WeiryWriter]

Yeah I think that makes a lot of sense! And definitely go ahead and start a new thread if you want, it is a distinct enough topic.