neongrey Posted December 27, 2016 Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 1 minute ago, TKWade said: B ) Based on what exactly? Preconceived connotations of a word. Based on the fact that you were doing this with a character whose every line, mannerism, and bit of behaviour was some form of really hackneyed 'evil woman' cliche. As-written, she's not even a character, she's a cardboard cut-out presented for we the reader to go 'she's a bad person' at. Like, I don't know why you don't know how to create a character who's unlikeable or an antagonist on their own terms rather than falling back on these things, and ultimately, I'm not here to work that out for you. I can, and have, pointed out where you're doing it; when writing gives me a certain impression I try to work out the source of that impression. Beyond that, I'm only so willing to go in depth with prose style (which is probably where you need the most work), especially in a format like this one, but given that you tend to fixate really hard on one or two things out of a crit and ignore all the rest (eg, fixating on 78 words of a 654 word crit), I am not sure the problem here is people not giving you broad enough critique. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted December 27, 2016 Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 7 hours ago, TKWade said: It shouldn't be sexual in nature, but it is because of western societal expectations and connotations with the word itself. You'll get no argument from me on this. It shouldn't be, but it is. But because of that, we have to be sensitive to it in our writing. That's just the long and short of it. Or you could use it for the men, too, as we discussed, and turn it on its head, which I wholeheartedly encourage. 7 hours ago, TKWade said: wondering if I shouldn't just start over. Maybe write a few shorts with Female protagonists and just spend the next while, however long that ends up being, researching the feminine side of the human condition. I don't think starting over is necessary, but I don't think working on shorts is a bad idea, either. We all have to really work to write the Other, be it other gender, sexuality, ethnicity, etc. There is no shame in admitting you need to do more research. The best part is that you can work your way through it with feedback because people on this board are awesome and want to help each other out! 7 hours ago, TKWade said: he male writers very rarely have main female protagonist Yup. Because research is hard, yo. So for many, its a why bother? If you're just going to get screamed at by female readers and writers for doing a piss poor job because you didn't do your homework, why not just play it safe and only write cis het white males? (this is me side-eyeing said men. If you can't get inside another person's head sufficiently to write that person, you're a poor writer, or a lazy writer who doesn't want to do the legwork required to really understand someone) 7 hours ago, TKWade said: if I were a woman would this have even been mentioned? If I hadn't written such a shitty male gaze in my first submission would this have been pointed out? If I were better at writing women in general would this have been glazed over because it wouldn't have been expected from me in that connotation? Uh, no. I have called fridging and male gaze on pretty much everyone here at some point or another, including the female writers. Women can be just as guilty of it as men. In fact, and I hope our much-loved @Robinski doesn't mind me using him as an example, but I did a read through of his 160K work Waifs and Strays, which was lovely and had strong female characters and really had nothing overarching to complain about. But he had this one line, and I still remember it, wherein a barmaid makes some reference to her ample chest (or possibly bosom, can't remember the euphemism). And you better believe I called him on that male gaze right then and there, and then proceeded to joke about it for another thirty thousand words (text about a man's crotch, and I ask if its ample, you know, for a friend). Now if a male character (or lady-loving lady) had made that comment or thought, totally would have worked. But in the context of our pious barmaid, it didn't make sense, and was authorial male gaze. Easy fix, and just something to point out. My point is, it may seem like I harp on it in your writing, but as 90% of the board can attest, I harp on it in everyone's writing. I don't like it. It bothers me, and contributes to the normalizing of sexualization of women. This is a critique board, so I include it with my critique. I've worked with you, both on and off board, on your writing, so I hope you can see that I am trying to help, in as much as I can. It can be hard to have someone shake up your worldview, and you're keeping your head above water, so keep going! Oh! And I can totally recommend reading for you, if you'd like! I've been trying to broaden my horizons myself, so have amassed a small library recently. Just let me know, and I'll toss titles at you! (I might be a little too excited about getting to share book titles with someone...) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKWade Posted December 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 4 hours ago, neongrey said: (eg, fixating on 78 words of a 654 word crit), I am not sure the problem here is people not giving you broad enough critique. The rest of your crit was extremely helpful, but the 78 words are what I took issue with. I suppose that's because I realise the other 576 words refer to skill deficiency and the 78 words feel more personal. They're not a problem with the writing, but my personal character. And I'm not implying that you're entirely wrong in your analysis, but I want to fully understand where I fall short in my personal character. If I'm truly falling short or if it's more a perceived fault and less of an actual fault. These are the things I'm trying to worm out because these are things I feel will have the most impact on my ability as a writer in the long run. Skill and technique I think will come faster for me, but these other inherent issues are the types of problems that follow people in their works. Whether it be writing or any other craft. I'd concede that she appears to be cardboard cut-out. I would largely attribute this to my inability to solidify my character's motivations. I have a big problem with character buy-in. I think this is something I will just learn in time with more writing. 3 hours ago, kaisa said: But because of that, we have to be sensitive to it in our writing. This I will concede to. And using it with men 3 hours ago, kaisa said: you're a poor writer, or a lazy writer Whole heartedly agree. This discussion is really just me trying not to be that writer. 3 hours ago, kaisa said: Uh, no. I have called fridging and male gaze on pretty much everyone here at some point or another, including the female writers. Happy to hear this. I questioned it because in a lecture that I had listened to they mentioned it as a con for writing groups - basically if they see it in the writing once they can tend to see it more frequently even when it might not actually be there. 4 hours ago, kaisa said: My point is, it may seem like I harp on it in your writing, but as 90% of the board can attest, I harp on it in everyone's writing. I don't like it. It bothers me, and contributes to the normalizing of sexualization of women. This is a critique board, so I include it with my critique. I've worked with you, both on and off board, on your writing, so I hope you can see that I am trying to help, in as much as I can. It can be hard to have someone shake up your worldview, and you're keeping your head above water, so keep going! I'm glad you harp on me. Some change doesn't come easily and that's okay. I definitely know you're trying to help me It' so much appreciated. Thank you! 4 hours ago, kaisa said: Oh! And I can totally recommend reading for you, if you'd like! I've been trying to broaden my horizons myself, so have amassed a small library recently. Just let me know, and I'll toss titles at you! Definitely! Throw a couple titles my way that you think would probably benefit me the most 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) You know, @TKWade, I really admire your steadfast determination to understand the critiques and improve your writing. The world needs more people like you. P.S. I'll get a list together for reading! Edited December 28, 2016 by kaisa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 1 hour ago, TKWade said: They're not a problem with the writing, but my personal character. And I'm not implying that you're entirely wrong in your analysis, but I want to fully understand where I fall short in my personal character. Ultimately, if you're taking the question of 'why is this character behaving in a sexual manner toward her brother' as being a shortfall in your character, that's not something I can help you with. The comment was framed in the way it was because a) I was assuming that it was not a point of authorial intent that this be taken in this manner and that b ) it seemed to me you had not actually considered the physical motion involved (which is to frame a secondary sexual characteristic with one's arms, drawing attention to them). Male gaze doesn't, as a rule, concern me nearly as much as it does @kaisa but it is something that, if it's going to be present, you need to be aware of it, and you need to be considering how it comes through in your work. This is not unique to the gaze you apply; there's all kinds of inevitabilities that need to be accounted for (the inherently political nature of art is a common one) but in all cases you work with them in pretty much the same way: by becoming aware of the preconceptions that drive them. Like if I thought the time I sunk into this wasn't worth it, I wouldn't bother-- and like i've said, this is the place to be doing things that need fixing, but I frustrate very easily and I don't people all that well. I'm only so able to mitigate that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKWade Posted December 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 7 hours ago, neongrey said: b ) it seemed to me you had not actually considered the physical motion involved (which is to frame a secondary sexual characteristic with one's arms, drawing attention to them). I had considered it in the context of the situation and nessian's build, but I suppose it's less an issue of that and more an issue of the broader context of the word itself and framing the character better. 7 hours ago, neongrey said: but it is something that, if it's going to be present, you need to be aware of it, and you need to be considering how it comes through in your work. This is not unique to the gaze you apply; there's all kinds of inevitabilities that need to be accounted for (the inherently political nature of art is a common one) but in all cases you work with them in pretty much the same way: by becoming aware of the preconceptions that drive them. Like if I thought the time I sunk into this wasn't worth it, I wouldn't bother-- and like i've said, this is the place to be doing things that need fixing, but I frustrate very easily and I don't people all that well. I'm only so able to mitigate that. I concede to this, absolutely. I really do appreciate the time that you've sunk into this conversation. It has been a good learning experience. Thank you neon! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 On 27/12/2016 at 11:16 PM, kaisa said: I hope our much-loved @Robinski doesn't mind me using him as an example Better that you make an example of me than I make an exhibition of myself So, I don't mind at all. On 27/12/2016 at 11:16 PM, kaisa said: then proceeded to joke about it for another thirty thousand words (She didn't actually write 30k words in criticising me... I think it was only 10,000 ) On 27/12/2016 at 11:16 PM, kaisa said: But in the context of our pious barmaid, it didn't make sense, and was authorial male gaze. I blame God, or whoever it was made the ladies nice to look at. Point was well made though, @kaisa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 22 hours ago, Robinski said: (She didn't actually write 30k words in criticising me... I think it was only 10,000 And in true tit for tat crit fashion, @Robinski had a lovely series of comments about Yor's wishy washy ways, and made highly amusing references to an old lady's china cat collection. I love alpha reads. Why crit if you can't have some fun (says the person who spent pages upon pages making bad Nintendo references in @Mandamon's draft....)? 22 hours ago, Robinski said: I blame God, or whoever it was made the ladies nice to look at. Zero arguments from me here. Zero. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 56 minutes ago, kaisa said: (says the person who spent pages upon pages making bad Nintendo references in @Mandamon's draft....)? Heh--I'm keeping that name, too! Of course, I also had plenty of fun talking about Nick's "pocket friend" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) I think this has been a really awesome discussion. So I had to jump in - sorry to drag up a discussion that's been dormant for a while - but in the interest of data collection (@kaisa's aforementioned field study), I wanted to give you (and anyone else following this) another data point. I'm one of those smaller-chested people, and although I'm short I have a long torso, so when I cross my arms, they do fall under my breasts - actually my arms barely touch them. No pushing up, and no cleavage-enhancement, which could be a non-issue anyway depending on the neckline of your character's clothing. Anyway, I couldn't help myself. And, as an aside, I am one of those female writers who has been fortunate enough to be corrected on this forum for gender issues in my writing. If we don't get corrected here, where will we be corrected? On to the submission itself... Chapter 2 The aftermath of the torture is awesome. Very convincing. He tried to rise again, this time slower, moving his arms under his body for more support and pushing himself up. Time moved slowly, and he tried not to think about how much had gone by. Overall the end of chapter 2 reads much better. Nice edits. Chapter 3 Who's saying the first line? I thought it was Stephain but after the rest of the first page, I wasn't sure. The shame he would bring to his family would make getting caught almost worth all the trouble. Nice line. It makes me like him and gives me a good window into his relationship with his family. Your grammar and sentence structure is getting a lot better! He hated her, he hated everything about her. He couldn't understand how they could be siblings. The use of the gifted humans to create Tah energy is interesting and disturbing. It's a reveal that keeps me invested. How are Stephain and his sisters different than humans? It's probably WRS, but you haven't mentioned anything in this chapter that makes them look physically different than humans. Is there anything, or do they look the same? That's hair?" Stephain asked glumly. And there's the difference - no hair. Alright, I found my own answer. And I like how he thinks of it as "fur." Could we have another description of Phearisan eyes? Again, it might just be WRS. I'm getting a tiny bit annoyed at Landin's speech tics - "ya" and "gonna" and such. ETA: Oops you already mentioned that you're fixing this. Sorry! I'm also not sure why they're not more worried about Nessian outing him. Stephain couldn't help smiling just a little bit. She never changes. Accepting defeat, Stephain slumped down on a small wooden chair. Stephain looked up at his sister. "Coreen." Overall I found this enjoyable. My main concern is that this seems like a game to Stephain. He doesn't actually seem that worried about getting caught, or things going wrong. I can believe that he might have an overly rosy idea of his chances of success, if he's lived a cushy life thus far, but everyone around him seems to share his confidence. The beginning of Chapter 3 had less of this - things felt more serious when they were talking in the palace - but as the chapter went on the seriousness decreased. It's still engaging, though I'm more engaged with Makyn than I am with any of the characters in Chapter 3. Edited January 6, 2017 by Hobbit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKWade Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: If we don't get corrected here, where will we be corrected? So true. I've learned so much in my short time here. It's something I don't imagine I'll be able to repay On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: He tried to rise again, this time slower, moving his arms under his body for more support and pushing himself up. Time moved slowly, and he tried not to think about how much had gone by. Will edit. On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: Overall the end of chapter 2 reads much better. Nice edits. Thank you On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: Who's saying the first line? I thought it was Stephain but after the rest of the first page, I wasn't sure. I will edit. On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: Your grammar and sentence structure is getting a lot better! Thanks! Getting there slowly. On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: How are Stephain and his sisters different than humans? It's probably WRS, but you haven't mentioned anything in this chapter that makes them look physically different than humans. Is there anything, or do they look the same? A little WRS, but I can maybe edit this a bit to throw it in a few more places. On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: I'm getting a tiny bit annoyed at Landin's speech tics - "ya" and "gonna" and such. ETA: Oops you already mentioned that you're fixing this. Sorry! Yeah, i'll get this worked out. I really wanted to play around with speech patterns so i could define a character specifically by the way the speak. I really need to do more research/practicing. On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: I'm also not sure why they're not more worried about Nessian outing him. I will be fixing this. I think some of my characters and their motivations are a bit static. I'm not setting them up for a defined enough character arc, so this is definitely something I'm going to edit and change in the revision. On 1/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Hobbit said: My main concern is that this seems like a game to Stephain. Yeah, this has been mentioned a few times - so it's either problem with the character or I need to really define it as a character trait. I'm leaning towards character trait/flaw. Maybe I can twist it into an interesting arc for both Stephain and Lillian. Thank you for taking the time to read and the thorough critique! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 On 23/12/2016 at 7:23 PM, Ernei said: my first book was about fairies, mermaids and two 9-year-olds living alone in a house, because their parents emigrated to USA for job. Also, there was a cat which one of the MCs accused of having been dumped by a male, because she meowed too loudly I would read that - sounds wild. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 Onwards and upwards. I’ve skimmed the comments thread on this one before reading, since it was onto Page 2!! I feel like I’m stepping into the aftermath of a small tropical storm, but here goes… Not keen on ‘realness’, ‘reality’ sounds smoother to me. It does seem like ‘realness’ is a word though – so I’ve learned something today. I like M’s forlorn wish to start the day again. I get a sense of some desperation there, strong emotion that I feel I’ve been lacking a bit from him. I like that. “shifted to one side revealing a path—and another damnation Phe…” – suggestion. “sense of calm when she was near” Why do you capitalise ‘Father’? No need for it, unless he’s the president or archbishop, or something, and his official title is the Father. I’m confused by the conversation at the top of Page 6. Not precisely sure who takes advantage of their own and thinks they’re superior. So, it’s human gifted children who are creating the Tah energy, and humans are using it? Don’t they know their children have this power? Seems odd that the humans wouldn’t put 2+2 together. “until he saw a pair of technicians…” – or ‘had seen’. You talk about the power of these twins, but I have no idea what kind of power we are talking about. I get the sense it’s not physical power, nor is it political power, I think, which their father possibly holds(?), so I suppose it must be some kind of special ability. The thing is, I can’t assess his statements about them having the power to act, because I don’t know what they are capable of. The images of children being farmed for energy are pretty gruesome. Good job with that. I can start to well some of the brother’s passion coming through, and I can believe it. The sister does seem conflicted. Her checking her make-up felt a bit odd – not sure I’m convinced by her yet, or have a handle on her character. Okay @kaisa, @neongrey, I’ll jump in a have a go at this – I would welcome your thoughts if you deem my observations worthy of comment - but I know you've covered this ground plenty already. “Ness stood there, arms crossed under her breasts…” What is the point of mentioning her breasts at all? If you don’t intend it to be a sexual reference, it has no other purpose. Just say “Ness stood there, arms crossed.” If the reader goes on to apply male gaze, that’s their problem. If you feel that the reference to breasts need to be there, I think you need to seriously consider why. I like his line inviting her to jump out of the window, I get a nice witch / vampire vibe from it. “he felt the chastisement through the bond” – Ah yes, I meant to ask about this earlier. I didn’t know what kind of bond you were referring to. Is it an actual telepathic bond? If so, I’m moved to think of the bond between an Aes sedai and her warder, and also the bond between At. and El. in @Kaisa’s ATD, not to mention a fair few other such examples in current and past SFF, I expect. My point is that I think you need to work hard to make your form of bond original. “quarters” is an odd word for a young woman to use, rather than ‘bedroom’, ‘rooms’ or ‘suite’ – something more feminine. ‘Quarters’ sounds very military, but these are aristocrats, surely. At the start of the next section, he can’t tell what his sister is doing, so the bond doesn’t have long range, or isn’t telepathic after all? “If people didn’t think I was bizarre before…” Lan’s voice is in and out, I don’t really get his tone, I don’t feel it’s consistent. Step’s not very observant. Women keep walking in on him unnoticed, even though one he has a bond with. Still want to know what kind of bond it is. Here’s one from last time “Lill appeared to scan the room…” – Why not just say she scanned the room? It’s direct, clear and shorter. “You need fur on your head…” – rofl. “Ya, ya, ya…” – seems like that is the only tick Lan has. Three in the one line is a bit wearing. Oh, the cigar comes out of nowhere and implies a whole boatload of comparisons, references and touchpoints that I was not even thinking about. He might as well have pulled out a mobile phone. Where did the cigar come from, Havana? It goes to highlight how little we know about the world. As I think about this now, I feel like the setting is barely more than the lightest of sketches, almost non-existent. “If Steph hadn’t liked him so much he would have wrung his neck” – I feel like there are several instances where the tense is off. “Lan drug out a large crate…” – There are a whole bunch of alternative facts in Robinland, none of which include ‘drug’ being a verb. I get something of Steph’s feelings for the humans, but less of his sister’s. It seems like Lill is more interested in following him than the purpose of the trip. I don’t feel I’m fully engaged with their quest. To me, they still feel a bit like entitled rich kids playing at having conscience. I would like them to encounter some harsh realities, which perhaps they will, or I at least would like to hear more about Steph’s nightmares about the Tah farms, to see them haunting him and maybe rubbing off on her. I hope this is not the limit of their morale education, because it still feels a bit shallow to me. I’m still interested though, and I think I am caught up with the story so far! <R> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ernei said: It's in Polish, though That's gonna be a teensy-weensy problem... Edited January 31, 2017 by Robinski 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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