• Announcements

    • Chaos

      Oathbringer Spoiler Policy   11/13/2017

      Oathbringer is out! Let's make our policy on spoilers clear! 1. You must preface topics with Oathbringer spoilers with the prefix [OB] in the front 2. You are only allowed to post spoilers and spoiler topics in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board, Cosmere Theories, and some select work-related forums. 3. For posts in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board you do not need to use spoiler tags inside a topic marked [OB]. For Cosmere Theories, you also do not need to put spoiler tags inside your topic if the topic has [OB] in the title. However, for Cosmere Theories, if you are adding Oathbringer stuff to an old theory without the [OB] tag, those must go in spoiler tags and you must make it obvious outside the spoiler tag that the spoiler is regarding Oathbringer content. 4. For select things that do require talking about OB spoilers, in Events, Coppermind, and Arcanum forums, those are allowed but keep OB spoilers in spoiler tags 5. Avoid and minimize spoilers in topic titles--even though those two boards will not appear in the Recent Topics ticker, topic titles still appear in Recent Activity and the forum home.  6. You aren't allowed to post Oathbringer spoilers in places other than listed, even with spoiler tags.  It will be nine months and then the Oathbringer board will be re-merged with the Stormlight board and you will not need to tag these spoilers. If you'd like to move something in the Stormlight Archive board to the Oathbringer board, to update it with new Oathbringer information, Report the post and we will happily move it to the Oathbringer spoiler board. Part-by-part Reactions Though the Oathbringer Spoiler Board will be very spoilery, very fast (maybe don't come there until you've read the book, as people do have copies that bookstores sold early), you'll have these five topics for reactions if you want to nerd out: Part 1 Reactions
      Part 2 Reactions
      Part 3 Reactions
      Part 4 Reactions
      Full Book Reactions For parts 1-4, they will not include the interludes immediately following it. On Discord All Oathbringer spoilers on Discord will be exclusively in the #oathbringer_spoilers channel for the nine month spoiler period and nowhere else.
Chaos

Theory: The Principle of Intent

84 posts in this topic

Windrunners is an order that controls Gravity (the Basic and Reverse Lashings) and Pressure )the Full Lashing) Soulcasting is the name that modern Rosharias call the manipulating of the Surge that Brandon referenced as Transformation.

It makes me wonder if it's possible for a fabrial to allow somebody to emulate other kinds of Surgebinding.

Anyway, on topic very interesting theory, and an excellent point about how Honor's power seems to manifest, I'd noticed that myself,we have Honor being associated with the Oathpact, the Ideals of the KR, and the nahel bond that allows Surgebinding in the first place, all forms of oath or bond.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Windrunners is an order that controls Gravity (the Basic and Reverse Lashings) and Pressure )the Full Lashing) Soulcasting is the name that modern Rosharias call the manipulating of the Surge that Brandon referenced as Transformation.

It makes me wonder if it's possible for a fabrial to allow somebody to emulate other kinds of Surgebinding.

I didn't know that about Pressure. I thought it was Transformation, but it wasn't in the Ars Arcanum, so I had gotten confused. Thanks! Do you know of any other Surges>

And yeah, whoa. Emulating other Surgebinding. I'd imagine it's possible. If you need a bond with a spren, and you can imprison a spren in a gemstone in a certain way, you've essentially created a pale comparison to that magical bond. I see no reason why you couldn't have it connected to the other Surges.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

those are the only three that have been mentioned explicitly although Brandon says there have been others in play less obviously.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a pretty epic theory, I like it lots :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chaos, here's the citation you need RE: Ruin or Preservation fueling all the metallic arts.

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, this is pretty much my favorite pet theory of late. Though I still do think magic use is tied to fragments of the Shards, same as before. I have now given up on the idea that all magic users are splinters, though.

Also, Chaos, those quotes I was going to get you that I thought would help back this by last Tuesday? Yeah, they're still coming. I have most of them now, but my life exploded this week, and I'd prefer to post them all in one block. I'll give you my nitpicks then too.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chaos, here's the citation you need RE: Ruin or Preservation fueling all the metallic arts.

Thanks!

Yeah, this is pretty much my favorite pet theory of late. Though I still do think magic use is tide to fragments of the Shards, same as before. I have now given up on the idea that all magic users are splinters, though.

Also, Chaos, those quotes I was going to get you that I thought would help back this by last Tuesday? Yeah, they're still coming. I have most of them now, but my life exploded this week, and I'd prefer to post them all in one block. I'll give you my nitpicks then too.

Ha! I persuaded you away from it, eh?

As I wrote this, I came up with what I think is the distinction between Sliver and Splinter. If you look closely at what Brandon refers to as Splinters, he says "Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter." and "As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them." This signals to me that a Splinter is energy, fragments of a Shard's power. The point is, Brandon never refers to Lightsong as a Splinter. Lightsong has a Splinter. When it comes to Slivers, however, Brandon says "Yeah, the Lord Ruler was a Sliver". An important, yet telling, distinction.

Also note that in the letter, Hoid refers to "and that which they held has been Splintered". Splintering refers to power, not a person. Just my personal thought on the matter.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm bumping this thread, because it's important.

I want your guys' honest opinion: do you accept this theory? Is there any dissent about it? In the upcoming Introduction to Cosmere Guide, I'd like to know if I can legitimately say this is a Commonly Accepted Theory.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like it, and I think it's great, but I don't know if we can really accept it or not. We only know about how two world's magic systems work. Until we get one more idependent verification, I say we say "Believed, but not proved" Or something similar.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, point. How about Commonly Espoused?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's something I think you can get away with saying. I'll be Espousing it once I get around to espousing things.

Though I'm not going to marry it, I don't like it that much.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Commonly Espoused works for me. It's a good theory and makes sense! I wonder if we could get a list of Espousable theories somewhere. I'd love to look through them sometime...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a little off topic, but why 1024 years for the Well of Ascension to refill? It happens to be the same number as the number of kilobytes to megabytes and so forth.

@doesn't the power of the shards eventually return to where it originally came from after a set amount of time, eg the Atium mines and the Well of Ascension.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a little off topic, but why 1024 years for the Well of Ascension to refill? It happens to be the same number as the number of kilobytes to megabytes and so forth.

It's a multiple of 16.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a little off topic, but why 1024 years for the Well of Ascension to refill? It happens to be the same number as the number of kilobytes to megabytes and so forth.

@doesn't the power of the shards eventually return to where it originally came from after a set amount of time, eg the Atium mines and the Well of Ascension.

Atium and the Well of Ascension do replenish, but my intent for talking about it in this theory is to try and understand why Shard power replenishes. Brandon's mentioned one instance where Shard power doesn't seem to replenish: when they are powering the Metallic Arts.

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Emphasis mine.

So from that quote, it appears to me that such "expending power" does not return (unlike atium and the Well). Maybe I'm wrong about that, and the power would return. But if I'm right, that's an interesting conundrum. Why would sometimes a Shard's power return, and why wouldn't it?

My theory, as stated in the Principle, was that if you spend power in accordance with the Shard's Intent, it returns. Atium killed (Ruined), so it would replenish. Same with the Well of Ascension. But if I were to use Preservation's power to fuel Hemalurgy, that would expend that power from Preservation permanently. That's my theory, at least.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a comment on that last comment, which ended up turning into a theory.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Principle of Intent

You are going to love this theory. I guarantee it.

[url=http://www.17thshard.com/forum/

I do like this theory. My question would be, you have three shards on Roshar in the beginning. Honor, Cultivation and Odium* (I'm not 100% sold there wasn't another shard with Odium as visitor but that's for another day). Honor works by binding things, which I accept. How would Cultivation work? The Principle of Intent works reasonably well with shards like Ruin and Preservation, but Cultivation from what we've seen of it, has a distinct theology that actually doesn't emphasise battle or even magic at all.

Your theory works well with Odium fueling humans through the Thrill.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do like this theory. My question would be, you have three shards on Roshar in the beginning. Honor, Cultivation and Odium* (I'm not 100% sold there wasn't another shard with Odium as visitor but that's for another day). Honor works by binding things, which I accept. How would Cultivation work? The Principle of Intent works reasonably well with shards like Ruin and Preservation, but Cultivation from what we've seen of it, has a distinct theology that actually doesn't emphasise battle or even magic at all.

Your theory works well with Odium fueling humans through the Thrill.

You're quite right in that I don't know what Cultivation and Odium do. But then again, we don't have any confirmed instances of either of their magics, and what little we have is not particularly helpful for theorizing. So I'm not worried. It just comes from our lack of understanding.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say that the Old Magic, with its boons and curses, fits pretty well with Cultivation. Think about it, cultivating something means helping it grow. How do you do that? You give it something to help it grow and take away things that would tear it down or at least are unnecessary/cause it to grow in a way you don't want it to. From what instances we can confirm, those who saw the Old Magic ended up doing well despite their curses. Those who haven't? Well, they didn't end up growing the way they were intended to.

Does that make sense?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the only person we know of that *didn't* end up regretting going to the Old Magic was that one dude that got cloth to sell to feed his family and ended up seeing the world upside down for the rest of his life. Everybody else we know of has ended up regretting it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I too think the old magic kinda fits with cultivation. I mean whats the one thing that is most effective at making humans grow?

Adversety and chanllenges, when make someones life difficult they become that much stronger, those that fall where not strong enough in the first place. Although it is a very cynical way to see it does have paralels to cultivating flowers. A gardener usualy cut away the flowers apear to weak and frail compared to the others.

I don't think it is a farfetched idea to think the sharholder of cultivation will gotten a perspective like that.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Almighty also says that Cultivation is better at seeing the future than he, which fits well with the idea of "cultivating" people for their destinies. Perhaps Cultivation can see someone's future and provides them with a curse that nurtures that future purpose.

Also, the Nightwatcher is referred to as female and Cultivation is described by The Almighty as "she."

Lastly, the tale that Szeth hears of someone stealing a sphere that glows black at night from the Nightwatcher sounds distinctly.... Shard-y to me.

Edited by masaru
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say that the Old Magic, with its boons and curses, fits pretty well with Cultivation. Think about it, cultivating something means helping it grow. How do you do that? You give it something to help it grow and take away things that would tear it down or at least are unnecessary/cause it to grow in a way you don't want it to. From what instances we can confirm, those who saw the Old Magic ended up doing well despite their curses. Those who haven't? Well, they didn't end up growing the way they were intended to.

Does that make sense?

It does make a great deal of sense. Three questions, as much to move the conversation further as anything else.

1. In that case is all the business in Vorinism about Heightening and callings and being elevated a Cultivation-influenced development in Vorinism?

2. the specific examples given in the interlude involving Baxil, do you want to take a shot at seeing how your explanation fits with the gifts the Nightwatcher is recorded as giving?

3. I suspect that Dalinar asked for a boon involving his son's health. How does the gift of a boon and a curse work when there are two people involved?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now got around to reading this whole theory and all its replies. I've been to intimidated to do so until now as it is huge. Anyway, I espouse this threory. It makes way to much sense to me so I have to espouse it. I also really like this talk of Cultivation and Old Magic. Sounds very possible to me.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.