Who Is Actually A Radiant?

[maxal]

I'm skeptical of Adolin being an Edgedancer as well.  The second oath of the Edgedancers are "I will remember those who are forgotten."  When has Adolin helped or expressed an intention to help others who are forgotten?  Lift did so on several occasions before she spoke the second oath.  I feel remembering the dead doesn't count since you can't do anything to help them.

 

Also I don't think the spren of the Edgedancers look for fighting ability as a primary characteristic.  Lift after all is a thief and is about as far from the descriptions of Edgedancers that we have been given as is possible to be.

 

I think we have to be careful here. Radiants from a same order most likely will not end up as clones of each other. Besides, Windle complained the whole time Lift was not someone he would have chosen. According to Words of Radiance (or Nale, I do not recall where I got the quote from), Edgedancers were famous for their fighting skills. Warrior ability may not be all they are looking for, but some Edgedancer sprens may be attracted to the knight with a strong heart, just like some others may prefer the miscreant with a good heart (Han Solo/Lift for example).

 

Adolin has been consistently remembering the fallen ones. The best example being his own mother. Dalinar never ever talks about her (we know why, his sons do not, though I suspect Renarin found out the truth a while ago), but Adolin likes to me remembered of her. He carries her necklace on him. A grown man, keeping a necklace from his dead mother. An adorable gesture in a child who became a testimony on how much he must have loved her for him to keep on doing it during his adult years.

 

In WoK

"Four hours after the chasmfiend attack, Adolin was still overseeing the cleanup."

 

"Once again, the other lighteyes enjoyed their leisure while he worked. This time he didn't mind. He would have found it difficult to enjoy himself after such a disaster. And it had been a disaster. A minor lighteyed officer approached, carrying a final list of casualities. The man's wife read it, then they left him with the sheet and retreated.

 

There were nearly fifty men dead, twice as many wounded. Many were men Adolin had known. When the king had been given the initial estimate, he had brushed aside the deaths, indicating that they'd be rewarded for their valor with poisitions in the Heraldic Forces above."

 

Nobody cared about those who died. Elhokar did not give a damnation, Dalinar seemed focus on everything else but this. Who cared? Who was the most disturbed? Adolin. Adolin who worked for hours to clean-up everything, to fix everything.

 

In WoR

"Sight of the man brought memories of stark panic as he watched Sadeas retreat from the field of battle to leave Adolin and his father alone and surrounded.

 

Havar, Perethom, and Ilamar - good soldiers, good friends- had died that day. They and six thousand more."

 

Who else but Adolin has expressed any second thoughts on those who died? Kaladin appreciated the losses suffered by the Kohlin army as he watched the empty barracks, but Adolin is the one who keeps being angry at their deaths.

 

The forgotten... Who are the forgotten? It is a wide term. Do not forget Lift said her oath as she contemplated Gaxk death and thought how nobody would mourn him, how nobody would care, so she had too. Adolin has been doing the exact same thing with both his mother and his dead soldiers. He cared.

 

You can't help the dead, true, but you can keep their memory alive so a part of them can be kept in the living world.

 

As for the living, Adolin cared enough to rescue a lowly prostitute in an enemy warcamp when most if not all men (and perhaps even Dalinar) would have walked pass.  He also cared enough to lock himself into a cell for weeks to protest against Kaladin's unjust imprisonment. He rewarded him by doing what I suspect not many lighteyed have done in Roshar's history, that is giving him a set of shards, which Kaladim refused, but Adolin cared enough to give him his wish to give them to Moash. He could have said no. In fact, not only most lighteyes would not have given Kaladin the shards and most of them would probably not have obliged him in transferring them to Moash. A darkeyes gaining shards is a HUGE deal on Roshar.

 

 

 

I'm also skeptical of him (nahel)bonding the blade.  From the word of Brandon I recall he kind of described the breaking of the Knights Oaths as effectively ripping something out of the mind of the spren making the damage involved very difficult to fix.  The Cryptics apparently have tried and now think it might be possible if the sprens original Knights still lived.  Based on these descriptions I find it improbable that simply behaving like a radiant candidate and talking to the blade is anywhere near enough to fix the problem.  I would guess whatever part of the spren enabled the bond would have to be replaced before any bonding could happen.  I would not put this down as impossible but it would require something extraordinary even by Radiant standards. (Nightwatcher intervention maybe?)

 

Speaking of his dead blade, I would find it suspicious that full resurrection of a dead shardblade is specifically mentioned as "difficult" instead of impossible unless someone ends up doing so at some point. Just what would be needed though. I'm curious now.

The edgedancer theory has merit I guess.

 

Have you read the most recent WoB on the matter of reviving a dead Blade? Previous we have had made it sound as if it were nearly impossible, but the most recent one opened a wide door to the possibility.

 

Me- So I noticed during my last read through of WoR that when Adolin summoned his blade, it formed from mist in the shape of vines. Does this mean that the Radiant that the blade was originally bonded to was an Edgedancer?

 

Brandon- Yes, yes it does. (He also had a huge mischievous smile)

Me- So I was wondering, if Adolin were to make the same exact oaths, could the Shardblade be revived?

 

Brandon- Something more would have to happen.

Me- So it could happen if something else also happened?

Brandon- Yes.

 

This time around, he confirmed it would be possible, though we do not know what the "something else" may be. He blalanly said Adolin could revive his Blade providing he figures the oaths on his own and he does "something else", which I believe may be helping his Blade gaining back a conscience, a feat he may unconsciously doing by talking to it and treating it as a living being and a friend.

 

 

 

With respect to Adolin, he didn't strike me as dismissive of people (for example, the prostitute in the Way of Kings that he sticks up for), so I think it's possible he has Edgedancer qualities.  I think his general temperament leans more towards what we know of Stonewards, though (reliably stubborn; unwilling to stand down), but again I wouldn't be surprised if his (apparently Edgedancer) Shardblade pulled him to the same Order as Lift.  Plus, Adolin has somewhat begun to mirror his father in possibly attracting a Nahel spren.  Why do I say this?  His later reactions to the Thrill, where it was starting to induce nausea.

 

Adolin is not stoic enough nor stubborn enough to be a Stoneward, not by what I believed must be their standard. Why? The four on one duel. He did not initially back down as he would not go down without a fight, but once he saw it was hopeless, he tried to yield. He was not ready to get slaughtered simply to prove his point. He was prevented to do so by Renarin's timely arrival and Relis's blackmail, but wanted to give up. Somehow, I doubt a Stoneward would have given up, but I may be wrong about this one.

 

Whereas Adolin is reliable, I do not think it is his driving attribute. Love drives him forward, especially love for his father. Almost everything is done can be tied back to love and care.

[Aleksiel]

I am (as probably most of you have already know) a dedicated supporter of Adolin-revives-his-Blade theory. Brandon said it was possible, we even have in-world discussion of failed attempts (Pattern speculating that may be if their Radiants were alive), and Adolin is the likeliest candidate. The Chekhov's gun basically demands someone to revive his Blade. If Adolin does it, the spren will like be like Wyndle (with the growing vines description of it's appearance).

 

Adolin's a peoples person, lightening up both Shallan and Kaladin's moods, easy to be around. Sure, he's a supporter for everyone knowing thier place, but he treats with respect everyone. His innitial grudge for Kaladin doesn't make him mistreat anyone else. 

 

ED are described as deadly and graceful, which fits Adolin. 'Not most demanding' - also fits ED were supposed to be fierce warriors after all. But Adolin's temperament and attitude also fit I believe. He likes the outward signs of refined and rich life without being dismissive or uncaring. He's shown to care about people many others would dismiss - the prostitute in WoK, the little darkeyed boy in WoR, he's the one mourning the dead soldiers while Dalinar is planning his next maneuver. Overall, I won't be surprised if Adolin ends up as an ED, in fact I'm all for it. Just because we already have Lift as ED doesn't mean there won't be another.

 

We may not see Radiants of all Orders in the fist five, and get more than one member of some Orders. I believe this is canon for LW since there's a WoB Kaladin has met a LW in the past.

 

As for Adolin being a SW, I don't have much to say against it because we don't know much about them. Adolin's not as headstrong as in-world WoR makes them look. I can't say dependability is Adolin's leading quality - we can call dependable both Kaladin and Dalinar, probably a bunch of other charcaters too and Adolin doesn't stand out as being more dependable than them. A questionable argument, but killing Sadeas in anger doesn't sound fitting to me for a SW. I also think there's a WoB we won't see much of their surges until the second five, so that's one point against it since I don't think it makes sense for Adolin to become a surgebinder after more than ten in-world years, he's not like the Blackthorn who'd need years to become worthy of Radinthood, Adolin's already one of the most decent and good characters we've seen. If he's to be a Radiant (by attracting a spren or reviving his Blade), it should happen in the next book or two.

 

edit: spelling

Edited March 14, 2015 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

Adolin's a peoples person, lightening up both Shallan and Kaladin's moods, easy to be around. Sure, he's a supporter for everyone knowing thier place, but he treats with respect everyone. His innitial grudge for Kaladin doesn't make him mistreat anyone else. 

 

In retrospective, he had good reasons to be distrustful. Dalinar was too trustful of Kaladin. It turned out right because we, the readers, all know how honorable Kaladin is, but the Kohlins did not know that. Adolin was also fair enough to appreciate the qualities of a man he initially distaste. It took much more work for Kaladin to warm up to Adolin, so between the two of them, I'd say Kaladin is more dismissive then Adolin. It is only because he is part of the oppressed group Kaladin that can claim to a high moral ground when it comes to judging people unfairly.

 

 

 

ED are described as deadly and graceful, which fits Adolin. 'Not most demanding' - also fits ED were supposed to be fierce warriors after all. But Adolin's temperament and attitude also fit I believe. He likes the outward signs of refined and rich life without being dismissive or uncaring. He's shown to care about people many others would dismiss - the prostitute in WoK, the little darkeyed boy in WoR, he's the one mourning the dead soldiers while Dalinar is planning his next maneuver. Overall, I won't be surprised if Adolin ends up as an ED, in fact I'm all for it. Just because we already have Lift as ED doesn't mean there won't be another.

 

We may not see Radiants of all Orders in the fist five, and get more than one member of some Orders. I believe this is canon for LW since there's a WoB Kaladin has met a LW in the past.

 

I believe there is another WoB where Brandon stated we would see multiple Radiants per order as soon as next book. We will get more than one knight per order. We will also get 10 major KR viewpoints, but Brandon never stated if these 10 would remain the same in both arcs. He also never stated they would be on major KR per order. It makes sense to draft it this way, but it is not a done deal.

 

Also, he never stated Lift would be the only major viewpoint for Edgedancer. He said she would have a flashback book and her importance would grow in the second arc. He also said she would remain an interlude character for the time being. He never stated Lift would be the major KR viewpoint in her own flashback book as Kaladin and Shallan were. It could be she will, it could be she won't. Unless there is a WoB I missed on the subject, we don't know. He also never stated the Edgedancer book would necessarily be Lift's flashback book.

 

All in all, Brandon has not say anything excluding Adolin from being another major Edgedancer viewpoint. He also never stated anything about Lift being the character primary used to explore the Edgedancer. It could be Adolin will be use for this task and Lift will be used for other plots in the second half.

 

I for one have often use the argument "we already have one major ED, we can't have another to dismiss the theory", but it is not supported by any other facts then my own impression (no doubt shared by many) Brandon would only fully develop one KR per order.

 

Brandon has stated Cohesion and Tension won't be seen until the second half. I do not know what it means for Dalinar, as a Bondsmith, but it supposes the Bondsmith, the Stoneward and the Willshaper book will not happen until the second arc. It would thus leave Truthwatcher, Skybreakers, Edgedancers, Dustbringers and Elsecallers for the next three books.

 

Who's to say next book won't be Edgedancer or book 4? It could feature Adolin has the major KR viewpoint and Lift as the major interlude. We could see both of them evolve, within the same order, quite differently. The parallel between the thief with a good heart and the prince with a good heart could be an interesting one.

 

Just saying. We have no way of knowing currently, but we should not limit ourselves in our speculations as to what we expect (Brandon never does the expected), unless some WoB disapproves it completely.

 

 

As for Adolin being a SW, I don't have much to say against it because we don't know much about them. Adolin's not as headstrong as in-world WoR makes them look. I can't say dependability is Adolin's leading quality - we can call dependable both Kaladin and Dalinar, probably a bunch of other charcaters too and Adolin doesn't stand out as being more dependable than them. A questionable argument, but killing Sadeas in anger doesn't sound fitting to me for a SW. I also think there's a WoB we won't see much of their surges until the second five, so that's one point against it since I don't think it makes sense for Adolin to become a surgebinder after more than ten in-world years, he's not like the Blackthorn who'd need years to become worthy of Radinthood, Adolin's already one of the most decent and good characters we've seen. If he's to be a Radiant (by attracting a spren or reviving his Blade), it should happen in the next book or two.

 

I don't get a Stoneward feel about him either for more or less the same reasons. I am all for Adolin learning the name of his Blade during the course of next book

[Aleksiel]

In retrospective, he had good reasons to be distrustful. Dalinar was too trustful of Kaladin. It turned out right because we, the readers, all know how honorable Kaladin is, but the Kohlins did not know that. Adolin was also fair enough to appreciate the qualities of a man he initially distaste. It took much more work for Kaladin to warm up to Adolin, so between the two of them, I'd say Kaladin is more dismissive then Adolin. It is only because he is part of the oppressed group Kaladin that can claim to a high moral ground when it comes to judging people unfairly.

 

I agree, I initially thought it was very weird to hire as bodyguards a bunch of former criminals. May be the Bondsmith in Dalinar was drawn to the Windrunner vibe? At first I though Dalinar's logic to be lacking 'You had a few years experience as squad leader that I don't know of and you trained a bunch of slaves underneath Sadeas's nose, here - guard the king!'. What?!

 

 

 

.....

 

 

I know the pattern of flashback characters to be of the Order the book focuses on may not repeat, however it feels weird for Dalinar's book to not further our knowledge on Bondsmiths. Or may be Dalinar just won't have much opportunities to use his surges since he's supposed to lead and plan, unite and yada-yada not fight like before. Well, nothing is certain and we'll see how Brandon handles it. I'm a bit sad we might not get a Wilshaper, I thought Rysn would be one. 

[maxal]

I agree, I initially thought it was very weird to hire as bodyguards a bunch of former criminals. May be the Bondsmith in Dalinar was drawn to the Windrunner vibe? At first I though Dalinar's logic to be lacking 'You had a few years experience as squad leader that I don't know of and you trained a bunch of slaves underneath Sadeas's nose, here - guard the king!'. What?!

 

I think the ordeal underlined one of Dalinar's greatest weakness: he is a bad judge of characters. Kaladin did one heroic deed and he was willing to give the responsibilities of a much more seasoned man. We can argue he did not have much choice, having lost more than half his army. As for appointing the bridgemen as bodyguards, it could he ran out of options as the Cobalt guard were nearly decimated in the Tower fight. He had no one left to guard the king. However, he could have been more suspicious of this strange slave with a sash brand that comes out of nowhere and yet manages to single-handily rescue an entire army.

 

I know I would have been suspicious.

 

 

I know the pattern of flashback characters to be of the Order the book focuses on may not repeat, however it feels weird for Dalinar's book to not further our knowledge on Bondsmiths. Or may be Dalinar just won't have much opportunities to use his surges since he's supposed to lead and plan, unite and yada-yada not fight like before. Well, nothing is certain and we'll see how Brandon handles it. I'm a bit sad we might not get a Wilshaper, I thought Rysn would be one. 

 

Do not forget Brandon initially planned Dalinar's book for book 5. Recently, he said he was not sure Szeth flashbacks would be the best companion for the main story arc of book 3. He said he may do Dalinar instead or even Eshonai. In other words, the flashbacks are not tied to the main story arc: they are complements. I doubt he is changing the entire outlay of book 3 to have it focus on Bondsmiths such as to match Dalinar's flashbacks when he obviously planned a different course. If his intentions were to have Dalinar's flashback book feature Dalinar as the main KR, then it means the main story arc plans for Bondsmith to be featured in book 5. Now he is changing the flashback order, which means he must not have planned such thing... I dunno if you follow here, I sound rather frazzled

 

Brandon never said we would not get a Willshaper. He said we would not see much of cohesion and tension in the first arc as the characters using them will not be prominent until the second arc. I interpret this as whoever ends up a Willshaper is not someone important right now or it is someone new entirely. It could thus be Rysn as she currently is a minor interlude character. Perhaps she won't remain such in the second arc. I think it also means Willshaper will not be one of the featured order in the first five book as people have initially theorized.

 

I do not know what this WoB means for Dalinar. One guess is he dies in the next book Other guess is Dalinar's bond with the Stormfather will be so erratic he won't be able to do much with his surges. I honestly have no idea. Your guess is as good as mine.

[Aleksiel]

 We'll get 10 major KR, other PoV characters and minor KR, 10 flashback characters, a book per Order and all of those might be different. I follow your argument, but you got to admit it's getting confusing 

[maxal]

 We'll get 10 major KR, other PoV characters and minor KR, 10 flashback characters, a book per Order and all of those might be different. I follow your argument, but you got to admit it's getting confusing 

 

I guess the main point if we should refrain from speculating too much based on what we expect book patterns to be.

 

In other words, we should not use "Adolin/Rysn/anyone else befitting this criteria does not get a flashback book, he/she therefore cannot be a major KR viewpoint or a KR at all" as a massive argument to defend any theorizing. Just as we cannot use the "Szeth is the next planned flashback of a book called Skybreaker, it is thus obvious he will be a Skybreaker and the main focus of book 3" as another massive argument to support the theory Szeth will become the major Skybreaker.

 

Arguments based on the expected book structure following the pattern presented in the first two books cannot be used for any theorizing unless they are supported by a WoB. As for WoB, the last ones disapprove the fans self-conceive idea each book would follow the structure established in the first two. They won't. So let the theorizing run free.

 

It is all I am saying. Simple, huh?

[Arondell]

The forgotten... Who are the forgotten? It is a wide term. Do not forget Lift said her oath as she contemplated Gaxk death and thought how nobody would mourn him, how nobody would care, so she had too. Adolin has been doing the exact same thing with both his mother and his dead soldiers. He cared.

 

You can't help the dead, true, but you can keep their memory alive so a part of them can be kept in the living world.

 

As for the living, Adolin cared enough to rescue a lowly prostitute in an enemy warcamp when most if not all men (and perhaps even Dalinar) would have walked pass.  He also cared enough to lock himself into a cell for weeks to protest against Kaladin's unjust imprisonment. He rewarded him by doing what I suspect not many lighteyed have done in Roshar's history, that is giving him a set of shards, which Kaladim refused, but Adolin cared enough to give him his wish to give them to Moash. He could have said no. In fact, not only most lighteyes would not have given Kaladin the shards and most of them would probably not have obliged him in transferring them to Moash. A darkeyes gaining shards is a HUGE deal on Roshar.

 

 

 

My understanding of the "forgotten" is people nobody cares about while they live.  The neglected and disdained that are usually overlooked by society.  For the most part Dalinar's men who fall in battle don't really qualify.  Just because we don't know who those faceless men were doesn't imply that they didn't have families or friends who cared about them.  Kaladin specifically notes the many widows that were left in the wake of Sadea's betrayal.  As for the prostitute in Sadea's war camp Adolin simply came across a situation and behaved in an honorable fashion.  He didn't seek out the confrontation. In Kaladin's situation it was, again, a very honorable action to put himself into a jail cell as a gesture of solidarity but do you really see Kaladin as one of the "forgotten" at this point? Leaving aside Bridge Four there are about a thousand men under Kaladin's command that would disagree.

 

Lift by contrast seems to go out of her way to look out for and associate herself with the lowliest in society.  It is one of the reasons she comes along on the attempt to rob the palace.  When she hears Gawx is captured she intends to help get him out of jail because she knows no one else will.  Even Gawx's own family ultimately views him as expendable.

 

When I start seeing Adolin hanging out in soup kitchens to aid the poor rather then wine houses or maybe taking particular interest in the living quarters of street beggars I'll see some Edgedancer potential.  I think Adolin is a pretty decent guy.  He might make a Radiant some day but as things stand at the moment I don't see him as an Edgedancer.

[Aleksiel]

Well, for the alethi society darkeyes are the lowliest.

 

Those soldiers were 'forgotten' by Dalinar, Elhokar and the other lighteyes as just another casualty, nothing to waste time on. Kaladin was sentenced to rot in a cell without knowing when (and if) he'd be freed; abandoned by his peers and superiors. Just because Gawx is someone even his uncle doesn't care about, doesn't mean that's the only situation that qualifies for someone being forgotten, it could very well be interpreted as those who are neglected. You are taking the 'forgotten ones' to an extreme in my opinion. 

 

Adolin has the potential to become an Edgedancer, obviously he isn't one yet.

[maxal]

My understanding of the "forgotten" is people nobody cares about while they live.  The neglected and disdained that are usually overlooked by society.  For the most part Dalinar's men who fall in battle don't really qualify.  Just because we don't know who those faceless men were doesn't imply that they didn't have families or friends who cared about them.  Kaladin specifically notes the many widows that were left in the wake of Sadea's betrayal.  As for the prostitute in Sadea's war camp Adolin simply came across a situation and behaved in an honorable fashion.  He didn't seek out the confrontation. In Kaladin's situation it was, again, a very honorable action to put himself into a jail cell as a gesture of solidarity but do you really see Kaladin as one of the "forgotten" at this point? Leaving aside Bridge Four there are about a thousand men under Kaladin's command that would disagree.

 

I have to agree with Aleksiel here. I too think you may be using an extreme definition of the forgotten. I interpret the forgotten as those who were forgotten by their people. The soldiers may have been remembered amongst the remaining soldiers and through their widows and children, but as far as the lighteyed society is concerned: they were forgotten as another meaningless casualty.

 

Nobody in the higher rank of society cares about those fallen soldiers. Dalinar cares only about the political impact of such an act and how to mitigate it. Same with Elhokar and Navani. All in all, they never had any single second thought about those poor soldiers. Adolin did though. Adolin remembers those soldiers, Adolin is recalled those soldiers each time he stares at Sadeas.

 

As for Kaladin, we could say his actions of saving the princes from a nearly sure death were forgotten in the scope of his ill-placed boon. Kaladin sure thought he was forgotten when in prison and finding out Adolin had been willing to stick up for him, even if it did not change the outcome (imprisonment) made a huge impression on him. Adolin did not have to do this. Nobody asked it of him and nobody would think less of him for it. Nobody thinks more of him either for it, but Kaladin. In the prison scene, Adolin chose to support Kaladin, he chose to believe him, he chose to care for someone people his rank have been ignoring.

 

 

Lift by contrast seems to go out of her way to look out for and associate herself with the lowliest in society.  It is one of the reasons she comes along on the attempt to rob the palace.  When she hears Gawx is captured she intends to help get him out of jail because she knows no one else will.  Even Gawx's own family ultimately views him as expendable.

 

The prostitute, nobody cared. Nobody was willing to do anything about her. You can't go any lower than a prostitute (she befits your description of the neglected) and yet Adolin rescued her. Besides, Lift did not seek out Gawx in the street with the sole purpose to care for someone without any family nor friends, he was her acolyte and a friend of sorts. He was captured because of her, so she felt bad. she chose to do something about it. She too stumbled on a situation were she chose to care when most would have walked pass. It is the same thing with Adolin: he stumbled on a situation and he chose to care when most would have just ignored it. I feel the parallel between both events is quite strong.

 

I also think you diminishes Adolin too handily in the prostitute event. He is a highborn man from a rich and powerful family whereas a prostitute has to be of the lowest dahn. Lighteyes of Adolin's rank do not even consider such individuals persons, but property to be disposed as they see fit. For someone like him, to lower himself to care for what his peers consider to be a little more than an animal is telling. He too rescued the prostitute because no one else would and because he could.

 

 

 

When I start seeing Adolin hanging out in soup kitchens to aid the poor rather then wine houses or maybe taking particular interest in the living quarters of street beggars I'll see some Edgedancer potential.  I think Adolin is a pretty decent guy.  He might make a Radiant some day but as things stand at the moment I don't see him as an Edgedancer.

 

Since we are drawing the parallel with Lift, I would say she is not handing soup to the poor either. In fact, she never even entertained the thought to use the riches she stole to help the poorer people. However, she has shown she cared about others. So did Adolin.

 

The first attribute for the Edgedancer is loving. Love and care are amongst Adolin most defining traits and they can express themselves in different manners. Love and care does not simply mean handing out soup (to use your example), just as refusal to forget the lost ones does not strictly refer to the neglected. 

 

Besides, Adolin may not have handed soup to the poor yet, but I do not put it pass him to do so in the future. He is not there yet. True, but Kaladin took a while too to embrace protection. Dalinar took years to become pious and yet he was bonding the Stormfather. Is Renarin really that learned and yet he is bonding Glys... Adolin is not an Edgedancer yet, but he has the required characteristics and considering his background, the level of care he has for those lower then him is astonishing. Think of Adolin as Kaladin early on in Amaram's army or Shallan as a 10 years old or Dalinar after Galivar's.... They all had the required package deal, strong enough to attract a spren, but they needed to work on it for the bond to cement. It took them years to get there, but I suspect Adolin will be forced to go through the fast pass if he goes there at all, which is not a done deal.

 

In other words, he is at least 5 to 6 years behind our current Radiant crew in terms of Nahel bond potential development. As Aleksiel pointed it out, he has potential, but he still needs to capitalize on this potential. Of all the orders, my current beliefs are the Edgedancers are the most probable because once you look at Adolin more closely, his most defining attribute ends up being love and care as opposed to bravery which is only something he expressed to stand for those he loves. All his actions can tied back to love which is why I see him as an Edgedancer.

[Aleksiel]

I wouldn't say he's 5-6 years behind. If Adolin is to indeed revive his Blade or attract a spren, it should happen during the next book or two, otherwise it might feel anti-climatic.

[natc]

Thinking about it. . . the Lost Radiants' shardblades have been neglected, quite literally forgotten, and left here for centuries frozen in death. Adolin still kind of cares enough about his sword to respect its existing (unknown) name, though of course he doesn't realize it is a sentient creature. The name thing never crossed anyone's mind but his, so he is in effect remembering someone long forgotten. Oh the irony.

EDIT: With that said, the blade is a witness of the Recreance. That's a big reveal, so if it's coming back it will probably take a while.

Edited March 15, 2015 by natc

[maxal]

I wouldn't say he's 5-6 years behind. If Adolin is to indeed revive his Blade or attract a spren, it should happen during the next book or two, otherwise it might feel anti-climatic.

 

I did not mean it would take him 5 to 6 years to gain a spren. I meant his evolution towards having his own Nahel bond is similar to Kaladin (and all other characters) 6 years back, right before Syl got interested in him. He'll evolve faster then they did most likely because he'll have help in the way.

 

Agree, it'll happen in the next book.

[maxal]

Thinking about it. . . the Lost Radiants' shardblades have been neglected, quite literally forgotten, and left here for centuries frozen in death. Adolin still kind of cares enough about his sword to respect its existing (unknown) name, though of course he doesn't realize it is a sentient creature. The name thing never crossed anyone's mind but his, so he is in effect remembering someone long forgotten. Oh the irony.

EDIT: With that said, the blade is a witness of the Recreance. That's a big reveal, so if it's coming back it will probably take a while.

 

I have been giving this some more thoughts....

 

The Cryptics tried to revived the dead spren and they failed. They must have try to reach to them through the cognitive realm.

 

Humans have proven deaf to the Blade's screams in the physical realm.

 

It seems as is the dead spren are stuck in between both realm, never being able to fully be in either one.

 

So what if the "something more" referred to the missing link? What if Adolin needs to provide a clear link to the physical world to his spren?

 

How have we seen such link possible? When a Radiant touches the Blade.

 

So what if the key to revive Adolin's Blade, apart from needing him to be compatible and say the oaths, is the Radiants? So perhaps he needs help to revive the Blade, help such as having Renarin (or someone else or all of them) touch the Blade at the same time as he while he says the oaths? With the link established, the spren would be able to travel back to the physical realm and kick-start the bonding process.

[Aleksiel]

I did not mean it would take him 5 to 6 years to gain a spren. I meant his evolution towards having his own Nahel bond is similar to Kaladin (and all other characters) 6 years back, right before Syl got interested in him. He'll evolve faster then they did most likely because he'll have help in the way.

 

Agree, it'll happen in the next book.

 

Oh, I misunderstood you then, sorry.

 

 

Thinking about it. . . the Lost Radiants' shardblades have been neglected, quite literally forgotten, and left here for centuries frozen in death. Adolin still kind of cares enough about his sword to respect its existing (unknown) name, though of course he doesn't realize it is a sentient creature. The name thing never crossed anyone's mind but his, so he is in effect remembering someone long forgotten. Oh the irony.

EDIT: With that said, the blade is a witness of the Recreance. That's a big reveal, so if it's coming back it will probably take a while.

 

That's a very good point. Although I think we'll learn about Recreance in the first five. Syl had been alive then, but she doesn't remember much even after a full year of being bonded (I think it's an year?), Pattern also has problems thinking, the Stormfather doesn't feel like sharing.... And he survived Recreance! So I don't think another spren who knows what really happened will be a huge issue, I suspect it will take weeks, even months for those memories to come back. So if Adolin revives his spren in the next book, we won't have much new info on Recreance until SA4.

 

edit: It's interesting Syl seems to be perfectly fine thinking after she's revived unlike Pattern who wasn't even fully dead, yet he had lots of trouble initially. I wonder why that is?

Edited March 15, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Arondell]

 

 

Since we are drawing the parallel with Lift, I would say she is not handing soup to the poor either. In fact, she never even entertained the thought to use the riches she stole to help the poorer people. However, she has shown she cared about others. So did Adolin.

 

Minor point here Lift doesn't steal money.  She only steals food.  It is unclear if she ever stole anything but food.  Another one of her rather amusing quirks.

 

 

“I’m going to eat their dinner,” she said, soft but intense. Gawx blinked, startled. “You’re . . . what?” “I’m gonna eat their food,” she said. “Rich folk have the best food.” “But . . . there might be spheres in the vizier quarters. . . .” “Eh,” she said. “I’d just spend ’em on food.” Stealing regular stuff was no fun. She wanted a real challenge. Over the last two years, she’d picked the most difficult places to enter. Then she’d snuck in. And eaten their dinners.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 691-692). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[maxal]

Minor point here Lift doesn't steal money.  She only steals food.  It is unclear if she ever stole anything but food.  Another one of her rather amusing quirks.

 

The quote does not explicitly state she never stolen anything else. However, it does state she stole food. What prevented her from bringing back some of the stolen food to feed the orphans? It is not stated she didn't, it is not stated she did. I am thus led to believe Edgedancers do not need to be Mother Teresa, but as any order, they need to live and breath following their first attribute, in their case loving.

 

I think we can all agree there are different ways to be loving just as the second oath could be interpreted in various ways. We can all agree Adolin is nowhere near having a Nahel bond, but he has potential, much like Kaladin had potential back in Amaram's army. Into which order would his potential mostly fit? As I have been trying to make the case, my current thoughts are Edgedancers are the ones.

 

Besides, I do not think Radiants have to follow their oaths until they said it. Lift only said her oath at the end of her interlude, so it could be her behavior will change afterwards. Adolin has said no oaths yet, but he has shown the potential to be this person who cares about the forgotten. He could be this person. No doubt actually saying the oath would change him int he same ways saying his oaths changed Kaladin.

[Arondell]

 

Besides, I do not think Radiants have to follow their oaths until they said it. Lift only said her oath at the end of her interlude, so it could be her behavior will change afterwards. Adolin has said no oaths yet, but he has shown the potential to be this person who cares about the forgotten. He could be this person. No doubt actually saying the oath would change him int he same ways saying his oaths changed Kaladin.

 

Adolin has shown potential to be a variety of things.  I simply feel your putting a bit too much emphasis on the attributes and not enough on the oaths.  Of those Radiants who we have experience with they showed a distinct tendency towards behavior in line with at least their second Oath.  Even before Kaladin became a slave he showed a strong desire to protect the weak.  Dalinar shows a strong desire to unify.  LIft exhibits a desire to help those who are largely ignored by society.  Adolin, while showing generally honorable behavior, has not shown any particular emphasis, in my opinion, to helping those who have been otherwise forgotten by society as a whole.  Using my perhaps overly strict definition of the "forgotten".  The only hints(foreshadowing) I see that might be an indicator of him becoming an Edgedancer is the rather vine like appearance of his blade before it snaps fully into the physical realm.  A blade he appears to have formed a stronger then usual emotional attachment to.

[Seerow]

Adolin has shown potential to be a variety of things.  I simply feel your putting a bit too much emphasis on the attributes and not enough on the oaths.  Of those Radiants who we have experience with they showed a distinct tendency towards behavior in line with at least their second Oath.  Even before Kaladin became a slave he showed a strong desire to protect the weak.  Dalinar shows a strong desire to unify.  LIft exhibits a desire to help those who are largely ignored by society.  Adolin, while showing generally honorable behavior, has not shown any particular emphasis, in my opinion, to helping those who have been otherwise forgotten by society as a whole.  Using my perhaps overly strict definition of the "forgotten".  The only hints(foreshadowing) I see that might be an indicator of him becoming an Edgedancer is the rather vine like appearance of his blade before it snaps fully into the physical realm.  A blade he appears to have formed a stronger then usual emotional attachment to.

 

Question: Do we have a WoB that Lift's Oath is the second one for the Edgedancers and not the third?

 

Because if not, it seems likely to me that Lift's Oath to remember the forgotten is actually the third Oath for the Edgedancers, with the second being yet unknown. I base this on Lift claiming she had bound the "voidbringer" with words (oaths) and her already having a much finer control over her surgebinding than anything Kaladin displayed pre-oath. 

 

This is relevant to the topic at hand because while Kaladin always had an urge towards protection, he definitely did not feel inclined to protect everyone, even those they hate. So even if proto-radiants have to live up to/aspire towards the second oath of their order before a spren will get interested in them (something I find dubious to begin with), they definitely do not need to live up to the third. Not right away at least.

 

 

That said, I do think your interpretation of Lift's oath is overly strict, and most of the other details thus don't really matter. Others posting here have made very solid arguments for Adolin as an Edgedancer that you seem to be discounting out of hand largely due to it conflicting with where you expect the story to go.

[Arondell]

Question: Do we have a WoB that Lift's Oath is the second one for the Edgedancers and not the third?

 

Because if not, it seems likely to me that Lift's Oath to remember the forgotten is actually the third Oath for the Edgedancers, with the second being yet unknown. I base this on Lift claiming she had bound the "voidbringer" with words (oaths) and her already having a much finer control over her surgebinding than anything Kaladin displayed pre-oath. 

 

This is relevant to the topic at hand because while Kaladin always had an urge towards protection, he definitely did not feel inclined to protect everyone, even those they hate. So even if proto-radiants have to live up to/aspire towards the second oath of their order before a spren will get interested in them (something I find dubious to begin with), they definitely do not need to live up to the third. Not right away at least.

 

 

That said, I do think your interpretation of Lift's oath is overly strict, and most of the other details thus don't really matter. Others posting here have made very solid arguments for Adolin as an Edgedancer that you seem to be discounting out of hand largely due to it conflicting with where you expect the story to go.

 

There has been no Word of Brandon on whether the Oath stated is the second or third.  Until and unless there is such a WoB I'm going with it being the second.  As for my expectation...Err...I don't believe I have stated anything about where the story will go.   I have expressed skepticism on how likely Adolin is to turn out to be an Edgedancer based on my interpretation of forgotten and his behavior as I see it.  I guess that could be a direction I, at the moment, think it probably won't go.  Beyond that I don't think I have stated any expectations or likely directions Adolin or the story in general will take.

[wolveryne]

I’m going to finally stick my shy and scared neck out here and make my first long/rambly post. I feel that the overwhelming opinion (in this thread at least) of Adolin as Edgedancer needs some more push back.

 

        I think that if Adolin is going to be a Radiant (which I see as 90% likely) the most viable Order is as a Dustbringer. I believe this because since we first meet Adoin the attributes that stood out the most from him were bravery and obedience. His obedience to his father about following the codes even when he obviously disagrees about it has always struck me as important. he was also obedient to his agreement with Rellis, even when he could have argued that he was tricked into it. I think one of the Dustbringer Oaths will be along the lines of “I will obey my orders, even if I don’t like them.” His bravery should never be questioned, though I think the DB bravery is more of an “extreme” bravery. More like fighting 4 shardbearers at once then general being a soldier with Shards bravery. I think both of those things will be expounded on by the way he reacts to his punishment for killing Sadeas.

 

                     I have 3 major problems with him becoming an ED.

• First- I cannot see any satisfactory way for him to come out of his current predicament without losing his Shards. I seem to remember it being stated that the most likely punishment for a Brightlord killing a Highprince is banishment, not execution. I believe the most probable consequence for Adolin is the stripping of his Shards and demotion to 5/6th dahn. Simply being demoted yet allowed to keep is Shards, is something I have a hard time believing the other Highprinces will accept. It will be incredibly hard for him to revive his current Blade if he no longer has it.
• Second- Though I agree that Adolin talking to his Blade is foreshadowing a future revival at some point; I think it a red herring for it to be Adolin who does the reviving, or at least him reviving that particular blade. It seems like the easy way out to me. Clumsy in it’s smoothness, maybe? Going with my theory of him being stripped of Shards and demoted, he could earn a different Blade with significant skill and bravery in a role of “Low-ranked Lighteyed officer” and that Blade being a Dustbringers Spren, and he revives that one. I think it more likely that either Eshonai will revive her Blade, and her being more in the cognitive realm will some how be the “something extra” needed; or Rysn being given a Blade as a gift at the end of her SA3 interlude, that she goes on to talk to and revive. A point has been made about how well she treats the plant given to her at the end of her WoK interlude, that talking to a Shardblade doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch for her. But now I’ve gone off a rabbit trail…
• Thirdly- The arguments made for him being “Loving:healing” seem forced. Like secondary traits forced to the forefront to fit the theory that he revives his current Blade. Does he love his family? Yes he loves them very much. Does he love them more the Shallon loves her brothers, or her scholarship? Or more then Kaladin loved Tien, then Bridge 4? I don’t think so. I think its just evidence of him being a well rounded and realistic character. The instance of the prostitute in the street is a circumstance that anyone in Adolin’s position should have stepped into. He didn’t love her, or even love all prostitutes that have ever been mistreated, he has simply been taught that every life is meaningful and that certain things are wrong. Killing/harming/bullinging an unarmed helpless person is one of them. He was there and had the ability to something about it, so he did. From a different perspective, he was protecting her just as much as Kaladin protected Elhoker. That one act doesn’t make him a good windrunner candidate, neither do I think it makes him a good ED candidate. As for his mourning the soldiers lost in battle, again it’s something any good commander would do. He’s learning the balance, that Dalinar himself is still learning, between caring for each life under his responsibility while keeping the bigger picture in mind. Adolin at this point has less responsibility and more time to think of those lost. I also don’t think that the soldiers could be counted as “those forgotten”. Being a soldier is considered the most holy vocation in vorinism, so I don’t see the masses as forgetting their sacrifice as a whole, or for them to be individually forgotten by their families. Gawx on the other hand was a petty thief that no one in authority would care about and whom his family considered expendable once he got caught. Again, I don’t see those instances of Adolin being loving:healing as his dominating personality traits. Secondary ones for sure, but not to the point that it would be enough to revive a dead ED Spren.

I guess what I’m trying to say here is that becoming an ED would seem out of character for the Adolin that has been presented to us so far. I believe there is a very good reason that a majority of people (at least that I have seen and talked to) immediately pegged him as the most likely DB. Any thought of him being any other Order, especially ED, needs heavy convincing whereas him as a DB just seems to fit.

I’m sorry that was so long, and that it probably doesn’t make much sense, but I felt like I needed to say it.

Edited March 16, 2015 by wolveryne

[Aleksiel]

Bravery is not Adolin's distinctive trait. His actions aren't based on it. Kaladin has showed bravery on numerous occasions, but his primary motivations was and is protecting. Renarin has shown bravery and obedience on many occasions, too, but he is a Truthwatcher. I have difficulty seeing Ren as learned and giving, however I have non seeing Adolin as loving and healing. Adolin doesn't stand out as braver than the other characters. However, he's far more caring than the average lighteyes.

 

Let me remind you Shallan has honesty as secondary attribute, yet her honesty is mainly to herself - to everyone else she presents the truth in a slightly twisted manner, despite having good intentions. You should not limited your interpretation of attributes to what we're accustomed to. 

 

You claim anyone is Adolin's position would have stepped to help the prostitute, yet nobody did it. Only Kaladin, who was across the street made any move and in his PoV he mentions people walking faster away from the officer hitting the girl.

 

edit: oops, wrong attribute

Edited March 16, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Patrick Star]

You become a Radiant!  You become a Radiant!  Everybody becomes a Knight Radiant!

[maxal]

Adolin has shown potential to be a variety of things.  I simply feel your putting a bit too much emphasis on the attributes and not enough on the oaths.  Of those Radiants who we have experience with they showed a distinct tendency towards behavior in line with at least their second Oath.  Even before Kaladin became a slave he showed a strong desire to protect the weak.  Dalinar shows a strong desire to unify.  LIft exhibits a desire to help those who are largely ignored by society.  Adolin, while showing generally honorable behavior, has not shown any particular emphasis, in my opinion, to helping those who have been otherwise forgotten by society as a whole.  Using my perhaps overly strict definition of the "forgotten".  The only hints(foreshadowing) I see that might be an indicator of him becoming an Edgedancer is the rather vine like appearance of his blade before it snaps fully into the physical realm.  A blade he appears to have formed a stronger then usual emotional attachment to.

 

I think we are disagreeing on many things here.

 

We are disagreeing on the requirements for an individual to be chosen by a specific sprens. If I follow your argumentation correctly, you are supposing exhibiting a given set of qualities is not enough. If I follow your logic correctly (and correct me if I got it wrong), the individual would need to maintain at least the second oath before having a Nahel bond and a guiding spren.... If I understood you properly, then I cannot endorse this line of reasoning as it would imply the first oaths have no purpose. No learning involved there as the person should already be maintaining them before even stepping foot on the path to Radianhood.

 

It does not make sense. Saying the oaths is tied to growth as a Radiant. You can't grow until you are one...

As for your example of Kaladin, you are forgotten how much he has progressed since early WoK. His initial reaction upon joining the bridgecrew was not to protect anyone, but to survive. It took Syl and a gruesome experience near the edge of a chasm to open his eyes to what he should be doing... Without Syl would Kaladin have pulled it of? Without the guidance of the spren having already chosen him, an individual who was currently failing at following the second oath he had not said yet?

 

I believe you are also reading too much into Lift. Lift has never entertained any thoughts on helping the forgotten as per your definition. She helped Gawx, who was her friend, if not friend then an acolyte. As I stated earlier, she was placed in a situation where she could chose to care and did so, but she is far from trying to settle the inequities of society or from caring for every single beggar as all she care for was one individual.

 

The comparison with Lift you keep bringing on thus does not hold the road as you claim Adolin, unlike her, is not caring enough for those below him, but Lift has not been anymore caring then Adolin. The question should more be: "Had Adolin been in Lift situation, would he have helped Gawx?" Of course he would have. Adolin would never let anyone take the hit for him. The prostitute is a good example of Adolin choosing to help and care as opposed to walk pass as everyone else did.

 

As for the appearance of his Blade, it has been confirmed by Brandon it is indeed linked to its order. The Blade belonged to an Edgedancer. We now have a WoB on it. So this debate is settled.

[wolveryne]

Bravery is not Adolin's distinctive trait. His actions aren't based on it. Kaladin has showed bravery on numerous occasions, but his primary motivations was and is protecting. Renarin has shown bravery and obedience on many occasions, too, but he is a Truthwatcher. I have difficulty seeing Ren as learned and giving, however I have non seeing Adolin as loving and healing. Adolin doesn't stand out as braver than the other characters. However, he's far more caring than the average lighteyes.

 

Let me remind you Shallan has honesty as secondary attribute, yet her honesty is mainly to herself - to everyone else she presents the truth in a slightly twisted manner, despite having good intentions. You should not limited your interpretation of attributes to what we're accustomed to. 

 

You claim anyone is Adolin's position would have stepped to help the prostitute, yet nobody did it. Only Kaladin, who was across the street made any move and in his PoV he mentions people walking faster away from the officer hitting the girl.

 

edit: oops, wrong attribute

I don't think bravery is Adolin's defining trait either. Each of the Radiant characters have several traits that are "the traits" of other orders. Kaladin would be a terrible protector if he wasn't also brave. Shallon would never do anything that would need her to use illusions if she wasn't trying to protect her family. I believe that Adolin's choice to care for those around him is in obedience to the things Dalinar has been trying to teach him for the past 6 years. Thats what I think his definitive trait is, obedience.  

 

In regards to the prostitute situation, the point is that Adolin was in a hostile warcamp ready to fight a group of men. Everyone else was running away, it wasn't brave of him to stay? He didn't do it in obedience of the codes (which at this point he doesn't even agree with)? He was sticking up for what Dalinar has been telling him is the way things should be, which is the opposite of what almost every member of Alethi society thinks. It would take a large amount of bravery for him to stand there protecting a prostitute to the point of being willing to kill those men, in Sadeas' warcamp, just because they were mistreating her.

I said anyone SHOULD have done what Adolin did, but he was the only one brave enough to do it. Let's remember that the Alethi society at this point would tell him that it's none of his business. 

 

I never said he wasn't kind and caring, I just don't agree that those are what drive him to do what he does. These characters are realistic, they have many different personality traits that define who they are. I think the argument made for him to be an ED doesn't fit with what we know of Adolin as well as he would fit the DB.

It's an attribute to Brandon's great writing that we can have this debate at this time. He could be either one, I just see the DB as the most likely and as the most satisfactory way for the story to go. At this point we're all arguing for the direction that we want the story too go, thats all we can argue for, at this point.