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"Modern" Skybreakers


rjl

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I may have missed it but I don't think I've seen any discussion of this idea. I had just assumed it was the case but others seem to have just assumed the opposite.

I believe that "Modern" Skybreakers are a group led by the herald Nin, they are not true radiants, they have no spren or powers except for dead-spren shardblades.

I believe these "Modern" Skybreakers are the group Shallan's brother joined and are the group that Szeth has been brought into.

I believe that Nin, who leads them, is mad (I believe all the heralds are mad), I believe that they think that killing surgebinders will help prevent a desolation BUT I think they're wrong.

I think there may be an interesting dynamic later between true radiant Skybreakers when they re-emerge and these fakes.

Thoughts? Has anyone else thought this?

Do people agree?

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I think this is the shared opinion among the fandom - the modern Skybreakers aren't surgebinders and are led by Nale; Shallan's elder brother was part of the group, but likely left for unknown reason.

 

Nale doesn't seem mad to me. He appears emotionless, may be cruel and despicable but that doesn't prove insanity. He prosecutes surgebindering criminals with eerie efficiency, so he probably has some sort of fabrial to help him find them. He has become a twisted version of Justice, but after Syl's speech how highspren are all about the law and WoB has it Skybreakers first Ideal is 'I will put the law above all else', then may be the Skybreakers have always been like that.

 

It's unclear why he believes surgebinding will bring Desolation and we're yet to see if he'd still hunt down surgebinders after the Voidbringers are back. Whatever reason he has in mind, it's too soon to disregard it. It's been speculated (or is it already canon?) that Honor trapped Odium with the surges, so may be Nale believes using them weakens the prison or something. Overall, it would be too easy and unsatisfactorily for him to just be a delusional madman.

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I believe there's WoB somewhere that the heralds are all mad now, though the scale/type of madness is unconfirmed.

I've seen several people suggesting that Nin/Nale is going to make Szeth a radiant which is a key thing I disagree with based on the above.

Also, what makes you say that Shallan's brother left the "modern" Skybreakers?

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Aleksiel shares most of my thoughts on the matter. (Except for the "Honor trapping Odium with Surges" bit which is a theory I do not find likely.)

 

Nalan doesn't seem insane, but he does seem like he has issues. Lift points out his utter lack of emotion. Considering his general competence, I'd be surprised if he was wrong about Surgebinders causing Desolations. He's a Herald, was involved with and knew Honor. He's clearly capable of rational thought and is in fact seems quite clever. If he says Surgebinders are causing the Desolations, I can't really argue with him - he's an authority on the matter, and he doesn't seem mentally compromised in ways that would cast doubt on his conclusion.

 

We do know it's the Heralds leaving Damnation that causes the Desolations, though, which is at odds with Nale. However, the Heralds are implied to know this is the case by these WoBs:

Q:  What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.
A:  Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.
Q:  Oh. So they've got a time limit.
A:  They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.
(source)

 

Luke: Are the Heralds actually aware that Taln is back?

Brandon: Are the Heralds aware that Taln is back? Uh, you’re implying that this person actually is Taln. [The smile on Brandon’s face at this moment was the best, most excruciatingly awful smile ever. And we thought Peter was a tease.] Which is not guaranteed. It’s not guaranteed. However, the return of the Voidbringers does indeed indicate to them, in their mind, that he would have returned.

Me: So they assume because the Voidbringers are returning--

Brandon: Because the Voidbringers are returning, would be a clue to them that Taln has returned.

(source)

 

Because Nalan would be aware of how this works and is still hunting Surgebinders, this suggests there's more at play here than we're aware of.

 

I believe there's WoB somewhere that the heralds are all mad now, though the scale/type of madness is unconfirmed.

 

I'm unfamiliar with this WoB. Can someone link it? I just spent some time searching and can't find it.

Edited by Moogle
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I believe there's WoB somewhere that the heralds are all mad now, though the scale/type of madness is unconfirmed.

I've seen several people suggesting that Nin/Nale is going to make Szeth a radiant which is a key thing I disagree with based on the above.

Also, what makes you say that Shallan's brother left the "modern" Skybreakers?

 

It's not canon, but seems likely - the Skybreakers follow the law to the letter and Helaran went full Shardbearer across a battle field to kill Amaram while slaughtering any soldiers who had the misfortune to be in his way. That doesn't sound Skybreaker to me, I doubt Nale authorized it, so Helaran most likely acted on his own.

 

About the WoB on Heralds being mad, I think you confuse it with the popular opinion, which is not canon to my knowledge. We know Ash 'is getting worse' (WoR prelude) and she's widely speculated to be destroying images of herself around Roshar (Baxil's interlude, WoK), but that doesn't mean all Heralds are mad.

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Moogle: on the word of Brandon, I'm sure I remember reading it but I don't know where so I could be wrong.

From the books though we have the behaviour of other heralds we've seen certainly not being entirely coherent.

A possible idea is that spren come in greater numbers when they know a desolation is coming -> more surge binding before desolations

Add some confusion and you could in your mind at least turn the arrow around...

To argue the other way, the blurb of Way of Kings which was an in world piece written by Brandon seemed to imply that the desolations stopped so that people wouldn't be ready for "the big one" that will wipe out mankind.

If that's the case any resurgence of surge binding would threaten odium's plan hence potentially cause him to attack earlier than otherwise.

Another matter worthy of consideration is that surely honour when crafting the visions for Dalinar knew what he was doing and he said they need knights radiant.

Tangentially related (as he also considers surge binders a problem) I think Mr T has almost everything wrong.

Edited by rjl
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From the books though we have the behaviour of other heralds we've seen certainly not being entirely coherent.

 

I agree they're all a little... off, in some regards, but I don't think we've seen any who have had problems thinking through things logically. Just possible multiple personality disorders, emotional issues, self-worth issues (if Shalash is destroying statues because she feels unworthy anyways).

 

A possible idea is that spren come in greater numbers when they know a desolation is coming -> more surge binding before desolations

Add some confusion and you could in your mind at least turn the arrow around...

 

This could explain things, but if Nalan's entire shtick is "I want to kill Surgebinders because I failed basic statistics" it'll be a rather poor reveal in my mind. Nalan is very intelligent, based on his ability to set a trap for Lift and his almost supernatural investigative ability when he looked for information on Ym's past. I don't think he'd make that kind of mistake. (Also: he's normally never been around before a Desolation happened, so it seems odd that he'd know Surgebinders have a sudden resurgence before every Desolation. And he could just talk with the spren and find out why these things happen... as the patron of the Skybreakers, I'm sure he's talked to the highspren once or twice at least.)

 

Another matter worthy of consideration is that surely honour when crafting the visions for Dalinar knew what he was doing and he said they need knights radiant.

 

Yeah, but Honor died to Odium. Clearly his plans are not very good. Just because Honor wants Surgebinders does not mean they should make tons of Surgebinders. (And if we're talking about untrustworthy people, anything a Shard says is tainted because their Intent warps their mind.)

 

Tangentially related (as he also considers surge binders a problem) I think Mr T has almost everything wrong.

 

Mr. T doesn't consider Surgebinders a problem. He considers them a possible danger, but he considers using them in the Diagram:

One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture.

 

He also has/is looking for the ability to destroy the Radiants if they become a problem, but that doesn't mean he wants to kill them all. Obviously, he hasn't used the secret, and won't unless they threaten the Diagram's plans. (Which they probably will, I grant. But until then, they're useful to him.)

 

As a final note: the Recreance happened for a reason. Clearly there's something very dark going on with the Radiants, else they would never have broken their oaths. This alone is enough to make me think Nalan is correct about the dangers of Surgebinders.

Edited by Moogle
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1. If Nalan thinks that surgebinding causes Desolations: Something to consider is that as far as we know, the Heralds have only been around on Roshar from the time right before a Desolation begins (when they break from torture) to the time right after the Desolation (when they all go back). Surgebinders historically show up around the same time, so Nalan/Nin could just be drawing a correlation (false or true, I don't actually know); thinking Surgebinding + broken Heralds --> Desolation, instead of the broken Heralds --> Desolation + Surgebinding.

 

However, the only documented time Nalan has been on Roshar without a Desolation (after leaving his blade and walking off) is also when the Knights Radiant were active before the Recreance, then after that when there weren't any Surgebinders. It would be strange to twist his thoughts from 'Taln is keeping Desolations away' to 'no Surgebinding is keeping Desolations away' with Knights Radiant walking/flying around.

 

Or maybe the Heralds' level of torture was actually connected to how much Surgebinding was going on, and Nalan is indirectly right?

 

2. The Recreance: all we have here are theories. I personally think there was a very good reason the Knights Radiant committed the completely barbarous act of killing their spren. The fact that -as far as I'm aware- every member of 2 full orders agreed to do it at the same time, tells me that there was some extremely convincing evidence (possibly falsified, but not likely) that it was completely necessary for the survival of humanity, and that for whatever reason, the spren condoned it (otherwise they'd have just puffed into the air and not stayed in sword-form); they sacrificed themselves.

 

Following that, the reasonable assumption is that something about the Nahel bond was presumed to have a horrible collateral effect.

 

For example - Nalan could have told them that the Heralds collectively suffered torture for every bit of Stormlight used for Surgebinding, and now Taln was bearing all of that torture, and was the only one keeping the Desolations at bay, so that after order was established, the Knights Radiant disbanded in order to give Taln a chance. If I may say, 4500 years seems an awfully long time... I have to wonder what made Taln able to endure so long? Was his torture lessened because there were fewer Surgebinders? Then he broke because Surgebinders were coming back and he couldn't handle the thought of more torture?

 

That's all random speculation, but regardless of details, I do think that the spren sacrificed themselves for a good reason, and the Knights walked away for what they believed was to the benefit of Roshar.

 

I don't accept that the Knights were somehow checkmated into breaking their ideals or the Nahel bond. First, Syl just left and reverted to a more mindless form when her bond with Kaladin was stressed. She became mindless and didn't associate herself with him as strongly. The Knights Radiant all still had their blades in hand, not floating around with the windspren. Second, the effects of Kaladin betraying the ideals were relatively immediate, he didn't choose when Syl should become more mindless. He didn't choose when Syl should die. The Knights Radiant chose the moment they put their blades down, and the glow ended as they walked away, implying that they were still empowered up until that moment.

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Jasnah seems to think that surge binding is returning because a desolation is coming, also she seemed to think they need to do what Dalinar is doing. Which gives a competing scholarly view.

What about my point based on the WoK blurb?

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I think both Jasnah and Nalan can be right. Surgebinding is returning because a Desolation is coming, and Surgebinding might also indirectly cause Desolations. As for Jasnah... well, she's not as informed as Nalan (though she may be after visiting the highspren), so I don't really know if her plan to get a bunch of Surgebinders is very good. It might be. Jasnah is usually clear-thinking. Of course, she doesn't know what caused the Recreance...
 
As to the WoK blurb:

From the Back Cover
I long for the days before the Last Desolation.
The age before the Heralds abandoned us and the Knights Radiant turned against us. A time when there was still magic in the world and honor in the hearts of men.
The world became ours, and we lost it. Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself.
Or was that victory an illusion all along? Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away.
There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar’s mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.
The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.
One of them may redeem us.
And one of them will destroy us.

 
WoR blurb for good measure;

From the Back Cover
The Knights Radiant must stand again.
The ancient oaths have at last been spoken; the spren return. Men seek that which was lost. I fear the struggle will destroy them.
It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit.  Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves.  They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures.
The Windrunner, lost in a shattered land, balanced upon the boundary between  vengeance and honor. The Lightweaver, slowly being consumed by her past, searching for the lie that she must become. The Bondsmith, born in blood and death, striving to rebuild what was destroyed. The Explorer, straddling the fates of two peoples, forced to  choose between slow death and a terrible betrayal of all she believes.
It is past time for them to awaken, for the Everstorm looms.
And the Assassin has arrived.

 

I don't think it necessarily implies that Odium purposefully delayed to let peace weaken mankind. This blurb is an in-universe creation by a character we don't know. I'm not sure how to evaluate the trustworthiness. They seem insistent that the Radiants must return, but they say this after it becomes clear the Everstorm is on the way and it's far too late to stop the coming Desolation. I don't disagree that more Radiants is a good idea during a Desolation. Their speculation that the enemy let peace weaken humanity seems to betray the fact that they don't know the Heralds leaving Damnation is what causes Desolations. (It's also possible Odium went light on the torture for Taln to delay, though.)

 

I'm not sure, in summary. Honor is a biased source, and Jasnah doesn't know enough (though she may post-WOR). Nalan is biased in some regards, but not in ways that I think cast doubt on his belief that Surgebinding causes Desolations. There's not much more I can say, except that we'll have to wait and see.

Edited by Moogle
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Yeah, but Honor died to Odium. Clearly his plans are not very good. Just because Honor wants Surgebinders does not mean they should make tons of Surgebinders. (And if we're talking about untrustworthy people, anything a Shard says is tainted because their Intent warps their mind.)

 

Mistborn spoilers:

Honor´s death doesn´t automatically mean his plan is bad. Preservation also died and his plan worked perfectly.

Edited by Moogle
please do not put mistborn spoilers in the SA section
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I think this is the shared opinion among the fandom - the modern Skybreakers aren't surgebinders and are led by Nale; Shallan's elder brother was part of the group, but likely left for unknown reason.

 

My headcannon is that Helaran stayed with the skybreakers, and was sent to kill Amaram during a battle.

 

I mean, that's a perfectly legal way for Nalan to kill Amaram, if he wanted to.  It's legal to kill enemy combatants during battle, and Helaran was enlisted in the army fighting Amaram.  And that's also why Nalan couldn't organize another hit on Amaram's life.  His leg injury kept him out of action, so there was no subsequent battle to kill him in.  And even if there was, he's a shardbearer now.  That would have been too difficult of a hit for the skybreakers to pull off.  And they might be in the same boat as Shallan, and falsely believe that Amaram managed to slay a shardbearer, which would make them more hesitant in pulling the same stunt again.

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Honor´s death doesn´t automatically mean his plan is bad. Preservation also died and his plan worked perfectly.

 

Mistborn spoilers:

Preservation's plan required him to sacrifice himself, and he did so having seen the future and planting prophecies about the Hero of Ages. He had a pretty good idea that he was going to succeed in his plan. His plan also bound his enemy such that Ruin could do nothing to affect the world, unlike Odium who is currently doing a world-wide genocide every few hundred/thousand years. Honor sucks at seeing the future and definitely implies his death was not planned for or wanted. He's also uncertain about what they should do, which is quite chilling:

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And… without the Dawnshards… Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.”

...

“I am… I was… God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.”

 

If Honor turns out to be a mastermind who's set up a plot to save humanity like Preservation, I'll eat my words... but he doesn't come across that way to me at all. The only mastermind with a plan to save the world so far as I know is Taravangian, and his plans aren't exactly the greatest.

 

While I'm analyzing Honor's plan, I find this bit to be interesting, and it entirely supports the idea that Odium has delayed:

“Men must face them together,” the figure said, stepping up to Dalinar, placing a hand on his shoulder. “You cannot squabble as in times past. He’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another. Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing.”

 

Taravangian is already on the 'unite everyone!' plan. I wonder if Diagram!Taravangian analyzed the visions that Gavilar told him and made it a core component specifically because Honor said to do that?

Edited by Moogle
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My headcannon is that Helaran stayed with the skybreakers, and was sent to kill Amaram during a battle.

 

I mean, that's a perfectly legal way for Nalan to kill Amaram, if he wanted to.  It's legal to kill enemy combatants during battle, and Helaran was enlisted in the army fighting Amaram.  And that's also why Nalan couldn't organize another hit on Amaram's life.  His leg injury kept him out of action, so there was no subsequent battle to kill him in.  And even if there was, he's a shardbearer now.  That would have been too difficult of a hit for the skybreakers to pull off.  And they might be in the same boat as Shallan, and falsely believe that Amaram managed to slay a shardbearer, which would make them more hesitant in pulling the same stunt again.

 

I've been wondering if he really was looking for a Surgebinder in Amaram's army instead (or as well). The modern Skybreakers are very good at finding them, after all. They might have assumed that Amaram was the Surgebinder, in fact.

 

Actually if they think that Amaram killed a Shardbearer and took his Shards then that coud explain why they haven't tried to kill him again - Nalan would presumably know that no Surgebinder could actually wield a Shardblade in combat, meaning they could rule Amaram out as a potential Surgebinder.

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Heleran's attempted hit on Amaram seems very different from the way we've seen Nale operate.  While it is certainly possible that Heleran was working w/Nalan's group, I am far from certain.  The following items seem different from Nalan's MO:

  • Nalan is in charge of his operations or operates alone.
  • Nalan has been careful to avoid the kind of wanton slaughter that Heleran perpetrated.
  • Nalan has operated discreetly.
  • Nalan has communicated with his victims, operating in a vague semblance of the forms of justice. 

As for Mr. T and the Diagramists;

  • Odium seemed to be completely on board with Szeth's activities (screaming, etc pointing to unmade cooperation) in general and with the hit on Dalinar in particular.  
  • The attempted hit on Elhokar brings into doubt their competence and ability to think things through. 

While the Diagram may be impossibly brilliant, we have reason to believe that it is fundamentally stormed up.  It also suffers from the fact that as Mr. T's day of brilliance recedes, the accuracy of the plan decays due to accumulated divergence from reality. 

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Heleran's attempted hit on Amaram seems very different from the way we've seen Nale operate.  While it is certainly possible that Heleran was working w/Nalan's group, I am far from certain.  The following items seem different from Nalan's MO:

  • Nalan is in charge of his operations or operates alone.
  • Nalan has been careful to avoid the kind of wanton slaughter that Heleran perpetrated.
  • Nalan has operated discreetly.
  • Nalan has communicated with his victims, operating in a vague semblance of the forms of justice. 

 

He only does that because of the usual method of his assassinations.  He's a constable in Azir, and is likely registered as an officer of the law with every government on Roshar.  As such, his attacks more closely represent an organized sting that the police forces of Roshar would use.

 

What I am saying about Amaram is that Nalan didn't need to do this.  While he isn't motivated by the law, he does seem to be forcing himself to work within it.  Since Amaram had not committed any actual crime, Nalan had to be more creative.  Sending Helaran with the enemy army was perfectly legal, and allowed Nalan a hit on Amaram.  Besides, if Nalan IS an officer (and thus, a citizen) of Alethkar, he may not have been legally allowed (without being considered a traitor) to enlist.  Since Helaran had no connection to Alethkar, he was a good choice to take part in the hit.

 

Am I explaining this well?  Sorry if I'm not getting my point across well.

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The explanation seems fine, except it seems to me to be stating speculation as fact. 

He only does that because of the usual method of his assassinations.  He's a constable in Azir, and is likely registered as an officer of the law with every government on Roshar.  As such, his attacks more closely represent an organized sting that the police forces of Roshar would use.

 

What I am saying about Amaram is that Nalan didn't need to do this.  While he isn't motivated by the law, he does seem to be forcing himself to work within it.  Since Amaram had not committed any actual crime, Nalan had to be more creative.  Sending Helaran with the enemy army was perfectly legal, and allowed Nalan a hit on Amaram.  Besides, if Nalan IS an officer (and thus, a citizen) of Alethkar, he may not have been legally allowed (without being considered a traitor) to enlist.  Since Helaran had no connection to Alethkar, he was a good choice to take part in the hit.

 

Am I explaining this well?  Sorry if I'm not getting my point across well.

It seems possible, but it seems like only one of many possible explanations.  I'm not saying it is wrong, just that I see many ways it might not be right. 

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The explanation seems fine, except it seems to me to be stating speculation as fact. 

It seems possible, but it seems like only one of many possible explanations.  I'm not saying it is wrong, just that I see many ways it might not be right. 

 

It's more of my speculation, at this point.  It would be pretty awesome if this was true, though...

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I doubt Nale was on with Helaran's plan. Nale managed to dig a crime from 4o years ago, it should have been piece of cake to find out about the Sons of Honor and their conspiracy.  If Nale knew, he probably would have acted against them since his purpose is to prevent another Desolation and that's exactly what they want.

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I doubt Nale was on with Helaran's plan. Nale managed to dig a crime from 4o years ago, it should have been piece of cake to find out about the Sons of Honor and their conspiracy. If Nale knew, he probably would have acted against them since his purpose is to prevent another Desolation and that's exactly what they want.

This is assuming that there are laws against such conspiracies. We don't know much about the Sons of Honor, or what crimes Amaram may or may not have committed prior to the Helaran incident. He seems very much like a mastermind type character who never got his own hands dirty. Without the proper law to finger him, he can perpetrate crime without ever committing illegal acts himself, which would necessitate the battle assassination plot to avoid breaking laws themselves, but still achieve their goal.

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This is assuming that there are laws against such conspiracies. We don't know much about the Sons of Honor, or what crimes Amaram may or may not have committed prior to the Helaran incident. He seems very much like a mastermind type character who never got his own hands dirty. Without the proper law to finger him, he can perpetrate crime without ever committing illegal acts himself, which would necessitate the battle assassination plot to avoid breaking laws themselves, but still achieve their goal.

 

You are right. However, Nale's determination and persistence to find a legal ground to get rid of surgebinders makes me incline to believe he'd rather dig further than resort to such measures.

 

Also, Nale has been able to find surgebinders and detect stormlight usage with eerie accuracy, and has way of disguising himself (most likely as shadow), therefor he could have easily gotten close enough to Amaram to check whether or not he was indeed a surgebinder.

 

So, having the means to appear from what seems like out of thin air, why would Nale send Sharbearing Helaran across a battlefield to slay a non-surgebinder?

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You are right. However, Nale's determination and persistence to find a legal ground to get rid of surgebinders makes me incline to believe he'd rather dig further than resort to such measures.

Also, Nale has been able to find surgebinders and detect stormlight usage with eerie accuracy, and has way of disguising himself (most likely as shadow), therefor he could have easily gotten close enough to Amaram to check whether or not he was indeed a surgebinder.

So, having the means to appear from what seems like out of thin air, why would Nale send Sharbearing Helaran across a battlefield to slay a non-surgebinder?

The Sons of Honor are attempting to start a desolation, which is exactly what Nale is trying to prevent. That's motivation enough, considering he killed surgebinders who don't even know they might cause a desolation.

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The Sons of Honor are attempting to start a desolation, which is exactly what Nale is trying to prevent. That's motivation enough, considering he killed surgebinders who don't even know they might cause a desolation.

 

But Nale has the means to kill Amaram when he's alone with no witnesses. Why send a minion with Shards and make a scene?

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But Nale has the means to kill Amaram when he's alone with no witnesses. Why send a minion with Shards and make a scene?

Deaths on the battlefield aren't illegal, whereas assassination is. I assume that the collateral damage to the soldiers was just a means of making it look more like a battle and less like an outside attempt on Amaram's life.

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