Urithiru

[Windrunner]

I was thinking today about mysteries from The Way of Kings, and I realized one that had received very little attention is Urithiru, the mysterious home of the Radiants. So I decided to compile a list of Urithiru mentions in the books so we could all discuss where Urithiru is and why its so important. All the page numbers are from the hardcover version of The Way of Kings.

“No words for me I see,” the knight said. “Very well. But should you wish to put that mysterious training of yours to use, come to Urithiru.”

“Urithiru?” Dalinar said. He’d heard that name somewhere.

“Yes,” the knight said. “I cannot promise you a position in one of the orders-that decision is not mine-but if your skill with the sword is similar to your skill with hearth-tending implements, then I am confident that you will find a place with us.”

So the Radiant home base is Urithiru, or at least its where the new Radiants are chosen.

They lived high atop a place that no man could reach, but all could visit. The tower city itself, crafted by the hands of no man.

This is just a guess but it fits what we know about Urithiru. A city built by no man? Maybe by Honor perhaps?

Jasnah waved for the parshman to place her books on the table. “Can that plate reproduce a cymatic pattern corresponding to Urithiru, priest? Or do you only have patterns for the standard four cities?”

Kabsal looked at her, obviously shocked to realize that she knew exactly what the plate was for. He picked up his book. “Urithiru is just a fable.”

The fact that Urithiru is thought to be a fable means that it's real for certain. After all, the Voidbringers are the subject of folktales.

“I walked from Abamabar to Urithiru.”

-This quote from the Eighth Parable of the Way of Kings seems to contradict Varala and Sinbian, who both claim the city was inaccessible by foot. Perhaps there was a way constructed, or perhaps Nohadon was being metaphorical.

What kind of city can't be gotten to by foot?

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

-Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requited in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.

We might be finding this city soon. Navani can translate the Dawnchant, thanks to Dalinar's ravings.

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature, voidish or mortal, her crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

Also might not be Urithiru but it makes sense.

Notes on Urithiru, the first one declared inside. The notebook was full-it appeared-of quotes from and notations about various books Jasnah found. All spoke of this place, Urithiru.

Jasnah is very interested in Urithiru.

“What is Urithiru?” Shallan found herself asking instead.

To her surprise, Jasnah answered without hesitation. “Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world.”

“Really? Why hadn’t I heard of it before?”

Because it was abandoned even before the Lost Radiants turned against mankind. Most scholars consider it just a myth. The ardents refuse to speak of it, due to its association with the Radiants, and therefore the first major failure of Vorinism. Much of what we know about the city comes from fragments of lost works quoted by classical scholars. Many of those classical works have themselves survived only in pieces. Indeed, the single complete work we have from early years is The Way of Kings, and that is only because of the Vanrial’s efforts.”

Shallan nodded slowly. “If there were ruins of a magnificent, ancient city hidden somewhere, Natanatan-unexplored, overgrown, wild-would be the natural place to find them.”

“Urithiru is not in Natanatan,” Jasnah said, smiling. “But it is a good guess, Shallan. Return to your studies.”

Jasnah must have a good idea where Urithiru is if she's so confident that its not in Natanatan.

“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable By then the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”

-Following the firing of the original Palanaeum, only one page of Terxim’s autobiography remained, and this is the only line of any use to me.

Urithiru appears to be at some sort of crossroads if goods have to be transported through it.

“Radiant / of birthplace / the announcer comes / to come announce / the birthplace of Radiants.”

-Though I am not overly fond of the ketek poetic form as a means of conveying information, the one by Allahn is often quoted in reference to Urithiru. I believe some mistook the home of the Radiants for their birthplace.

Who is the announcer? Maybe one of the singers of the Dawnchant?

“My family traveled to Urithiru via the direct method, and had been awaiting me for weeks when I arrived”

What is the direct method? Unlikely its Travel since I doubt all of Nohadon's family were bound to the same type of spren.

Okay, that was long. I have two ideas where Urithiru is. One is Shinovar, since no outsider has been there since forever, and its in the west. It also fits with my idea that Shinovar was where the first humans on Roshar arrived; they would need a city to live in, perhaps one made by Honor since he's not a "man" anymore. The problem with that is Shinovar is kind of a backwater, so tariffs through a city there wouldn't matter too much. My other idea is Shadesmar, since Jasnah has been to Shadesmar and seems to know where Urithiru is. The problem with that is that no one would be transporting goods through a city in Shadesmar, if building a city there is even possible. I heard someones idea that Urithiru is on one of Roshar's moons, but that idea seems to have the same problems.

Anyway, it seems to me like Urithiru will have to be found at one point or another. If it still has the lost classical works, because its been undisturbed for so long, then it could be an invaluable source of knowledge to the characters. It might also hold a Dawnshard if the quote above is actually Urithiru Hopefully the Dawnchant holds the answers, or at least the location. If anyone else sees a quote referring to Urithiru tell me please so I can add it to the main post. What does everyone else think?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Windrunner

[Vortaan]

I'm kind of figuring that Urithiru is located in or around the Origin. I don't know why, but the image of a tower, in the middle of a calm eye, storms raging around it... perhaps the Oathgates all passed through Urithiru because it was close enough to the Origin that Stormlight was plentiful. The KR could have taxed the use of the Oathgates. As for not being made by the hands of men... maybe by Parshendi? Are they classified as men? I think they are something more, and if they are, as pointed out by Dalinar, the Blades and Plate they have are pretty great construction tools.

[Argent]

I always though Urithiru was kind of a floating city. A little bit like Blizzard's Dalaran. And since the Shattered Plains were mentioned above, I might as well add this to my theory: when Kaladin was riding the Highstorm, he briefly mentions that the Plains look like something fell in their center and shattered them. I believe there are several times in the book where characters think about the Plains and how it almost feels like there is a method to their madness, a design to the cracks. Like a huge piece of glass that got hit by something enormous. Like a floating city.

[hoser]

Yes! I've been wondering the same thing. It's also great to have the quotes all together. I have a few thoughts that I hope will advance the discussion. I assume that all the quotes contain accurate information about Urithiru.

As far as the location goes, we know it is to the west of Alethelakar. We also know that Nohadon walked there from Abamabar and that his associates had been there for weeks. Nohadon ruled in what is now Kholinar in Alethkarela. The simplest and reasonably logical assumption is that Abamabar is an old name for Kholinar. If Nohadon could walk to the city, it must have a continental location. If we assume that his associates left at the same time, traveled instantly and that he left from Alethcholera, then that limits us to how far a man can walk in weeks. But how many weeks? If I say weeks, I don't mean one week, nor do I mean ten weeks. We refer to a time frame as weeks when it is between two and four weeks. If we assume that a not-young man can travel 20 miles a day with some tolerance, then that gives us a range of distances westward of Alethark (200-600 miles?).

A city that is high up, has a physical location that can be walked to and cannot be reached by foot. It seems that it is floating in the sky or atop an inaccessible mountain. My understanding about Brandon's intentions regarding physics is that he would not do a floating city, so I imagine an inaccessible mountain location less than 600 miles west of Alethkala.

How did anybody get there? How did Nohadon's associates get there? I believe that there were two orders of Radiants who could teleport as an ability and fabrials may have been created that mimicked that ability. Those fabrials could have been constructed to link Urithiru to various locations in a spoke like design with Urithiru as a hub. Two other orders could play with gravity and could basically have flown there. Teleportation by radiant or fabrial would then be the direct method.

The city was not crafted by the hands of man. It could have been crafted by Honor. It could also have been soulcast by the two orders of radiants with innate soulcasting and others using the soulcaster fabrials. It could have been built by parshmen. It could have been built by women's hand. I believe that it was soulcast by radiants.

What about the whiny guy who complains about having to pay too much as he flits from country to country in less than a day? I believe that the established teleportation network always went through Urithiru. The radiants charged for the service. Teleportation would have to be expensive, to avoid having all merchant traffic pass through Urithiru.

What do people think?

Edited to clarify meaning of "accurate" in first paragraph.

Edited March 31, 2012 by hoser

[Dahak]

I believe that there were two orders of Radiants who could teleport as an ability and fabrials may have been created that mimicked that ability.

I suspect the word your looking for is Oathgate.

Also IIRC there is a reference to it not being possible to build Urithru in Alethkar, so it is west close to Honor's resting place.

[Wisdom]

I believe that there has been speculation that innate Soulcasters are all female (and Elhokar is seeing a different kind of spren than Shallan). If this is true, then since they didn't have fabrials then if they built the city by soulcasting then literally no man could have worked on it. Another possibility is either Cultivation or Honor of course.

[Aradel]

Not accessable by foot, used for transport and teleportation, contolled by radiants...

Personally, I think urithiru was a place constructed somewhere in shadesmar.

[Aiken Frost]

I always though Urithiru was kind of a floating city. A little bit like Blizzard's Dalaran. And since the Shattered Plains were mentioned above, I might as well add this to my theory: when Kaladin was riding the Highstorm, he briefly mentions that the Plains look like something fell in their center and shattered them. I believe there are several times in the book where characters think about the Plains and how it almost feels like there is a method to their madness, a design to the cracks. Like a huge piece of glass that got hit by something enormous. Like a floating city.

Heh, that was exactly my theory too.

[Truthless]

I love the speculation so far, but I don't think we should be ignoring what little information we have just to make fun theories.

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

We KNOW that Urithiru was in the west. Jasnah has access to the same information we're given, so that's likely why she dismissed Shallan's idea of the city being in the jungle, and it's why there's no chance that it crashed in the middle of the Shattered Plains.

And as we're given a physical direction for the city, it's unlikely that it is actually in the Cognitive realm.

As far as I can tell, the city is likely a ruin somewhere in Shinovar. It might be the source of their reverence for stone, now that I think about it - an ancient city (which would be built of stone), filled with knowledge and magic. It would seem holy to a people even a little less civilized.

[Vortaan]

Question... is it possible that the city is lost, but not abandoned? What if the remaining KRs didn't abandon their Shards, they just shut their city and went home? After all, the KRs at Fellstone Keep (I think that's it) met troops and went... somewhere. Why not go home?

[Windrunner]

Jasnah says the city is abandoned, you don't have to take her words as facts though. I posted this above.

Because it was abandoned even before the Lost Radiants turned against mankind. Most scholars consider it just a myth. The ardents refuse to speak of it, due to its association with the Radiants, and therefore the first major failure of Vorinism. Much of what we know about the city comes from fragments of lost works quoted by classical scholars. Many of those classical works have themselves survived only in pieces. Indeed, the single complete work we have from early years is The Way of Kings, and that is only because of the Vanrial’s efforts.”

I don't know that only females have the innate Soulcasting ability. I can't think of any reason that that would be. I'm still sticking with Shinovar as my best guess for the location. Maybe on another continent in Roshar? I don't know why all the Oathgates would have to go to Urithiru; if they can go there they can probably go other places. They could just tax direct transports from one place to another instead of sending someone from one gate to Urithru and then from Urithru to the destination.

[Aradel]

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

We KNOW that Urithiru was in the west. Jasnah has access to the same information we're given, so that's likely why she dismissed Shallan's idea of the city being in the jungle, and it's why there's no chance that it crashed in the middle of the Shattered Plains.

And as we're given a physical direction for the city, it's unlikely that it is actually in the Cognitive realm.

Don't forget that the cognitive realm overlays the physical one. North, south, east, and west apply to both. "Place closest to honor" may be a reference to shadesmar i.e. the dirctions should read "west and in shadesmar."

The more I think of it, the more I can't help but to compare Shadesmar to Tel'aran'rhiod(sp) in wheel of time. There're some obvious differences, but they are eerily similar as well.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew

[hoser]

I love all these ideas. Since I make so many assumptions, I learn a lot from what you guys are thinking. I also have no direct line to the truth, so I don't want to seem argumentative.

I proposed that the Oathgates all went to Urithiru to explain the Terxim quote. If there were direct Oathgates, why did Terxim go through Urithiru? If I had to further rationalize it, I would say that if all the Oathgates went to Urithiru, they could be easily monitored by a small number of radiants and it would be more difficult for Voidbringers to use them for travel around the continent.

As far as Urithiru being in Shinovar goes, I really like the idea. The only problems I see with it is that it seems too far for Nohadon to walk from Alethela in a matter of weeks and I don't know that it is one of the Silver kingdoms or one of the Vorin nations (although I vaguely remember Shallan being surprised at how many Vorin nations existed). Would Urithiru have been built in a non-Vorin area? I wonder whether it could be in a mountain range between nations, sort of the way the District of Columbia is not in any state.

Cheers all

[ReaderAt2046]

I don't know why all the Oathgates would have to go to Urithiru; if they can go there they can probably go other places. They could just tax direct transports from one place to another instead of sending someone from one gate to Urithru and then from Urithru to the destination.

What if Uruthiru is at some sort of natural energy focus? Maybe you can't open gates anywhere except to or from urithiru because of something to do with the magic system?

[Dahak]

I proposed that the Oathgates all went to Urithiru to explain the Terxim quote. If there were direct Oathgates, why did Terxim go through Urithiru? If I had to further rationalize it, I would say that if all the Oathgates went to Urithiru, they could be easily monitored by a small number of radiants and it would be more difficult for Voidbringers to use them for travel around the continent.

More simply. The Oathgates were built to enable fast deployment of Knights Radient from Urithiru. So the builders didn't bother with crosslinking, since that would reduce the number of locations they could connect to with a given number of gates or require extra transits for thier original purpose.

[Aradel]

What if Uruthiru is at some sort of natural energy focus? Maybe you can't open gates anywhere except to or from urithiru because of something to do with the magic system?

The whole teleportation thing has me sold on it being somewhere in Shadesmar. Of course there would likely be a physical landmark too...

[Quantum Toast]

A city that is high up, has a physical location that can be walked to and cannot be reached by foot. It seems that it is floating in the sky or atop an inaccessible mountain. My understanding about Brandon's intentions regarding physics is that he would not do a floating city, so I imagine an inaccessible mountain location less than 600 miles west of Alethkala.

I was thinking it'd be on a mountain too, or at least somewhere high up.

Maybe "the tower city" means it's a city that is a tower? (Or, combining that with the 'high up' thing, maybe it's on top of one - an artificial mountain, or something.)

[Aiken Frost]

I love the speculation so far, but I don't think we should be ignoring what little information we have just to make fun theories.

Man. The whole purpose for me to use this forums is to have fun. You better believe that I will ignore any information I can if that means "fun"!

We KNOW that Urithiru was in the west. Jasnah has access to the same information we're given, so that's likely why she dismissed Shallan's idea of the city being in the jungle, and it's why there's no chance that it crashed in the middle of the Shattered Plains.

If it was a floating city, nothing prevents it from being moved before crashing in the place that in the future would become the Shattered Plains.

[Vortaan]

What if Uruthiru is at some sort of natural energy focus? Maybe you can't open gates anywhere except to or from urithiru because of something to do with the magic system?

This is something that leads me to believe it's near or around the Origin. I imagine there are massive amounts of stormlight there to be tapped

[Windrunner]

I love all these ideas. Since I make so many assumptions, I learn a lot from what you guys are thinking. I also have no direct line to the truth, so I don't want to seem argumentative.

I proposed that the Oathgates all went to Urithiru to explain the Terxim quote. If there were direct Oathgates, why did Terxim go through Urithiru? If I had to further rationalize it, I would say that if all the Oathgates went to Urithiru, they could be easily monitored by a small number of radiants and it would be more difficult for Voidbringers to use them for travel around the continent.

As far as Urithiru being in Shinovar goes, I really like the idea. The only problems I see with it is that it seems too far for Nohadon to walk from Alethela in a matter of weeks and I don't know that it is one of the Silver kingdoms or one of the Vorin nations (although I vaguely remember Shallan being surprised at how many Vorin nations existed). Would Urithiru have been built in a non-Vorin area? I wonder whether it could be in a mountain range between nations, sort of the way the District of Columbia is not in any state.

Cheers all

I don't think that the Terxim quote actually implies that he went through Urithiru. I doesn't say he went there, just that the tariffs there were unreasonable. It doesn't mean you're idea is wrong though, I could be the one misinterpreting the quote. I don't think making the Oathgates all go to Urithiru would really be necessary to protect them. Those teleporting Radiants could easily destroy gates before the Voidbringers could capture them. (Unless the gates aren't physical gates?) As a matter of fact I don't think making multiple teleportation gates leading straight to your capital city is a great idea, but that doesn't mean that they didn't. I don't know that Nohadon is actually walking from Althela. He walks from Abambar which isn't marked anywhere, so it could be in Alethela or it could not be as well.

What if Uruthiru is at some sort of natural energy focus? Maybe you can't open gates anywhere except to or from urithiru because of something to do with the magic system?

Elantris Spoilers

I would call this plausible because of the way AonDor is tied to the land, except that there's no real evidence that Surgebinding is tied to certain places in the land in a similar way.

More simply. The Oathgates were built to enable fast deployment of Knights Radient from Urithiru. So the builders didn't bother with crosslinking, since that would reduce the number of locations they could connect to with a given number of gates or require extra transits for thier original purpose.

This is a good idea, but it raises the question of why you can't just build more gates? It doesn't make sense to just link from one place to another. What if Radiants garrisoned one place had to get to another? Going to Urithiru and then somewhere else would be a waste of time in an emergency

[CrazyRioter]

why would he mention the tariffs if it wasn't relevant (i.e if he didn't have to pay then for going through Urithiru)?

[name_here]

It could be it was simply more practical to have a city square in Urithiru containing Oathgates to all the major cities than to set up a network allowing people to move between major cities without passing through Urithiru. After all, if they operate in linked pairs, which seems logical, you would need an additional gate for each city you wanted to travel to directly from your home city, while moving through Urithiru would require only one gate in each of the other cities. A distributed network would probably cost more, and the Radiants apparently possessed a finite quantity of money. It wouldn't add all that much to the trip time, it would greatly simplify toll collection, and it would also make it far easier to monitor traffic.

Basically, imagine a section of the city that's like an airport terminal, except instead of airplanes there are teleporters.

[zxg15]

I agree that the area around Shinovar is the most likely location for Urithiru. Personally I think the mountain ranges on either side of Shinovar are good possibilities since it is supposedly inaccessible by foot. Perhaps in the area at the center of the roughly triangular range to the east of Shinovar, it looks like a valley surrounded by mountains on all sides.

[Windrunner]

why would he mention the tariffs if it wasn't relevant (i.e if he didn't have to pay then for going through Urithiru)?

I think that we're interpreting the quote differently.

“Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable By then the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.”

-Following the firing of the original Palanaeum, only one page of Terxim’s autobiography remained, and this is the only line of any use to me.

The way I'm reading it is Terxim has a party in Veden City but first he wants to go to Kholinar to talk about the tariffs through Urithiru with Tivbet, who can presumably do something to reduce them. I think you're reading it as Terxim wants to go to Kholinar to talk with Tivbet but has to pay tariffs in Urithiru on they way and so he's complaining about it. Am I correct about how you're reading it? I can't tell which one is the right way. However in my opinion, the fact that he "insisted" on talking to Tivbet, and then talks about tariffs implies that he wants to speak about tariffs. However it can be read either way.

It could be it was simply more practical to have a city square in Urithiru containing Oathgates to all the major cities than to set up a network allowing people to move between major cities without passing through Urithiru. After all, if they operate in linked pairs, which seems logical, you would need an additional gate for each city you wanted to travel to directly from your home city, while moving through Urithiru would require only one gate in each of the other cities. A distributed network would probably cost more, and the Radiants apparently possessed a finite quantity of money. It wouldn't add all that much to the trip time, it would greatly simplify toll collection, and it would also make it far easier to monitor traffic.

Basically, imagine a section of the city that's like an airport terminal, except instead of airplanes there are teleporters.

The idea that it costs money to make Oathgates is speculation, as you've admitted. I see you're point of view but I still think that it makes more sense to build Oathgates to every city. Its not like every airport in the word only has one terminal and they all send you to the same place to be rerouted to a different destination. In addition to that we don't know that Oathgates are linked pairs, they might be able to connect to any Oathgate on Roshar. Also since the Radiants are charging tariffs to use the gates they could build a few, charge tolls/tariffs and then have plenty of money to build more. Why do you think sending everyone to Urithiru would simplify toll collection and monitering traffic? People could buy one direct ticket to their destination instead of buying one to Urithiru and then buying another ticket in Urithiru to their final destination. One toll is easier to collect and process then two, would you agree? If you were monitoring traffic the work wouldn't be any different at all, in my opinion. You can just find out where people are going from their departure Oathgate if they can go direct. If they're in Urithiru the process works the same way. Do you agree with me about tolls and monitoring? If not please reply, I love to hear from others points of view.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Windrunner

[hoser]

Hi Windrunner,

I love this thread of yours and feel grateful for your letting me play here. I really like having my constructions challenged. Hopefully together we get further than we would have individually.

I don't think that the Terxim quote actually implies that he went through Urithiru. I doesn't say he went there, just that the tariffs there were unreasonable.

As with anything, there are infinite possibilities. On your interpretation, the Terxim quote seems full of non-sequiturs. It seems to me that we have far too few clues to throw any away. If the only nonradiant access to teleportation is through Urithiru then the quote hangs together. I like to think that Brandon is leaving hints, and that quote seems gravid. Besides, if Terxim finds the tariffs through Urithiru unreasonable, but he could avoid them by teleporting directly from place to place, why would he bother complaining about them? Wouldn't he just avail himself of the cheap alternative transport and not even think of the expensive routes through Urithiru?

... I don't think making the Oathgates all go to Urithiru would really be necessary to protect them. Those teleporting Radiants could easily destroy gates before the Voidbringers could capture them. (Unless the gates aren't physical gates?) As a matter of fact I don't think making multiple teleportation gates leading straight to your capital city is a great idea, but that doesn't mean that they didn't.

I obviously don't know why the Radiants made all the Oathgates go to Urithiru. But think about what we know about the Radiants. They have technology and spirituality that is millenia ahead of what the rest of the world does. They use

it to protect the world, but don't share it. Then they take off, apparently without a word of explanation. It seems completely consistent that they would set up oathgates that only they could control.

I don't know that Nohadon is actually walking from Althela. He walks from Abambar which isn't marked anywhere, so it could be in Alethela or it could not be as well.

You make another excellent point. We know that Nohadon is a king in what is now known as Kholinar. The point of his book is that the journey is more important than the destination. He could start his journey from some random place that he teleported to. To me that turns his journey from quixotic to farcical, but I am making leaps from the scantiest of clues. All I really know is that Abamabar does seem to be a Vorin name.

This is a good idea, but it raises the question of why you can't just build more gates? It doesn't make sense to just link from one place to another. What if Radiants garrisoned one place had to get to another? Going to Urithiru and then somewhere else would be a waste of time in an emergency

Great questions. If I had limited personnel and wanted to control a network that was also a source of income, forcing all travel through a single nexus would be an efficient way to administer it. The radiants themselves could teleport wherever they want, as we saw in the Midnight Essence vision. But really, I'm just interpreting the few clues we have in what seems like the most meaningful way. If the oathgates don't all go to Urithiru, why did Brandon write the Terxim quote the way he did? Why would Nohadon make a pilgrimage from another country than his own?

Actually, I just thought of something. The radiants were inspired by Nohadon's book. They didn't exist at the time of Dalinar's visit w/Nohadon. Urithiru is the birthplace of the Radiants. The book is about a journey to Urithiru. How does that work? The book must predate the radiants, and Urithiru apparently predates the book.

Oh well. Sorry for the ramble. Please educate me.

EDITED: grammar, punctuation, corrected Kholin city name to Kholinar

Edited February 2, 2012 by hoser