23 replies to this topic

[Windrunner]

The process of Returning has always left me wondering, who can do it, and why? We know that the Priests of Hallandran have beliefs that are partially correct

Warbreaker Annotations chapter 44

so there is something sound to the Hallandren reasoning that you have to do something heroic in order to Return. (That's not true, but it is more sound a doctrine than Siri thinks it is.)

So we know that it is related slightly to bravery. My next thought was to look at the conditions of their Returning to see if there is a clue there. We all know what Lightsong did, sacrificing his life to save his niece's life. The next one we know of is Calmseer

Warbreaker Annotations Chapter 47

She did complain about not being able to do enough for people, though she had that personality even before Returning. She was the self-sacrificing type who took care of those around her and always had a kindly attitude. She died from an illness she caught while caring for the sick family who lived next door to her. (They'd lost their father to the same illness, and while all eventually recovered, Calmseer herself came down with their disease and passed away from it.)

Again another sacrifice, Calmseer gives her life caring for a sick family. The last Returned who's circumstances of Returning we know is Blushweaver.

Warbreaker Annotations Chapter 58

Before her Return, Blushweaver was a powerful merchant in the city, and very well known. She was assassinated after denouncing a group of dye merchants she'd worked with for their deceptive and criminal practices. Her testimony ended with them in jail, but it got her killed. That's how she earned the title of Blushweaver the Honest (which, if you'll remember, she eventually got changed to Blushweaver the Beautiful).

This one is a bit different from the other two, Blushweaver gives up her life to denounce criminals. So now I started to try to draw parallels, that also fit in with the intent Endowmwnt, Nalthis's Shard. And my conclusion? It's not just dying in a heroic way that allows you to Return, although it could. If you give up (endow!) your life for someone else, or something you believe in, you are given the ability to Return. Lightsong gave up his life for his niece, Calmseer gave up her's to help people, something she found important, and Blushweaver gave up her's for the truth, something it seems likely she believed in, since she was willing to risk her life to reveal it. And infant Returned? The best idea I have is perhaps their mother's weren't going to be able to survive giving birth to the infants, so they subconsciously give their lives to let their mother's live, allowing them to Return. That last one feels a bit contrived. Any ideas, comments, or questions? Feel free to post them and let me know what you think.

Edited by Windrunner, 21 December 2011 - 01:00 PM.

[Tulir]

I think it is a pretty well thought out theory. Good job!

[Wispsy]

Maybe it's from twins! Or perhaps a returned can give their breath to a dead baby and it brings it back as a returned or summit

[Aethling]

Heroic may not be the correct idea. I think it looks more like self-sacrifice.
None of those three did anything that I would consider really heroic, though Lightsong was pretty close.

We also shouldn't overlook the element of choice involved. My reading was that Lightsong was shown the future and given an option of whether or not he wanted to return. My question would be how many of the people offered the choice decided not to return.

There is also the element that people outside of the immediate area are able to return. Those that return outside of the area of influence of the God King have no reason to believe they will be able to get the required breath every week. One of the sisters actually remembers when someone returned in the highlands and died 8 days later. We do not know what that person managed to accomplish, but it seems like there had to be a reason they chose to come back even if it was something as simple as saying goodbye or righting some wrong that passed into history. To me, it looks like Vo's reason for returning was to establish the bloodline.

There appears to be two different elements that need to be satisfied in order for someone to return. They need to die in a way that is relatively self-sacrificing, though that may not be 100% correct. They also have to be shown something that puts them into the right place and time to accomplish another deed and accept the choice.

[Windrunner]

Thanks for the compliment, Tulir. I'm glad you like my theory, it just popped into my head this morning.

Maybe it's from twins! Or perhaps a returned can give their breath to a dead baby and it brings it back as a returned or summit

I'm not sure that twins is the answer. I think it would probably would have mentioned that every infant Returned had a twin that is not Returned. But I'm not saying this never happened, so I think it's a very real possibility, just not every time. As for your other idea about infants being given Breath, I think it has something to do with how a Returned can have children.

Graendal: A question that's been on my mind for a while. If Returned can't have children, how are Siri and Vivenna descended from one? 
Excellent question. One I have to RAFO. When I was writing WRBRKR, I was planning on two books. 
I seeded two questions to be answered in the next book. One was the origin of the royal family.
The second was how Vasher was able to survive while hiding his divine Breath. I will answer these questions. 
Eventually. (It has to do with restoring Breath and life to the child while still in the womb.). 

Heroic may not be the correct idea. I think it looks more like self-sacrifice.
None of those three did anything that I would consider really heroic, though Lightsong was pretty close.

Did you read the last paragraph of my theory?

And my conclusion? It's not just dying in a heroic way that allows you to Return, although it could. If you give up (endow!) your life for someone else, or something you believe in, you are given the ability to Return.

It says exactly the same thing that you said, albeit in slightly different words. In an unrelated note, I think all of those actions are pretty heroic. It just depends on how narrow your definition of "hero" is.

We also shouldn't overlook the element of choice involved. My reading was that Lightsong was shown the future and given an option of whether or not he wanted to return. My question would be how many of the people offered the choice decided not to return.

There is also the element that people outside of the immediate area are able to return. Those that return outside of the area of influence of the God King have no reason to believe they will be able to get the required breath every week. One of the sisters actually remembers when someone returned in the highlands and died 8 days later. We do not know what that person managed to accomplish, but it seems like there had to be a reason they chose to come back even if it was something as simple as saying goodbye or righting some wrong that passed into history. To me, it looks like Vo's reason for returning was to establish the bloodline.

There appears to be two different elements that need to be satisfied in order for someone to return. They need to die in a way that is relatively self-sacrificing, though that may not be 100% correct. They also have to be shown something that puts them into the right place and time to accomplish another deed and accept the choice.

I disagree here. You don't need a reason to come back in order to have the ability to Return. If you get to the other side of that Iridescent Wave and you gave your life for someone, Endowment will show you the future. If you see a reason to Return you can but if you dont see something you care about enough to Return, you don't have to. Having something they want to change is not a requirement to be able to Return, it's the reason they want to. It's not because Lightsong wanted to change the future that he could Return, it's because he wanted to change the future so he chose to Return. He could have just as easily gone on. And people who Return aren't guaranteed to accomplish their goals.

One thing to note about the Returned coming back is that they do see the future, but when they Return, they aren't guaranteed to be able to change anything.

Edited by Windrunner, 21 December 2011 - 06:45 PM.

[zas678]

I like this. I like it a lot.

[ReaderAt2046]

What if it's the other end of the spectrum? i.e. Endowment can sense who still has something important to give, and it gives them the power to Return and make one final Endowment.

[Sunblesser]

What if it's the other end of the spectrum? i.e. Endowment can sense who still has something important to give, and it gives them the power to Return and make one final Endowment.

not quite, i'd say. it seems more like endowment shows them the future, and then lets them decide if they have something important to give.

[ReaderAt2046]

I suspect that Endowment can tell who will and won't think they have something important to give.

[Wispsy]

Well if endowment is as good at viewing the future as the book suggests it would stand to reason endowment got it right most of the time

[ulyssessword]

Well if endowment is as good at viewing the future as the book suggests it would stand to reason endowment got it right most of the time

Are you sure that you aren't thinking of Cultivation (from Roshar/WoK) when referring to the ability to see the future? AFAIK, there wasn't any mention of Shards in Warbreaker.

[Sir Read-a-Lot]

Are you sure that you aren't thinking of Cultivation (from Roshar/WoK) when referring to the ability to see the future? AFAIK, there wasn't any mention of Shards in Warbreaker.

No, but there was talk of seeing the future. Lightsong's visions were pretty good prophecies.

[zas678]

Brandon mentions that the Voice that Lightsong remembers when he sees the future and sees what will happen and wants to stop it. The Voice offers him a chance. To Return.

It's right before Lightsong gives up his breath. Assumably, Endowment is showing Lightsong the vision of the future (though I guess it is possible that he doesn't actually know it, he just knows that they've been willing once to give up what they have)

[Vortaan]

Infant Returned seem to break more than one theory about who can Return. For example, how is any infant able to process visions of the future enough to make a decision whether to Return or not? My son's 8 months old and smart as a whip (proud father, forgive me for it), but I doubt he has the capacity to understand that kind of decision. And we're talking children younger than him... I think there has to be more to it than how you died and a decision. Endowment may force some people to Return because they need to. Come to think of it, it doesn't even really go against his/her Shard... endowing someone with something need not be voluntary.

[Windrunner]

What if it's the other end of the spectrum? i.e. Endowment can sense who still has something important to give, and it gives them the power to Return and make one final Endowment.

I kind of personally doubt this. I mean if you look at what Calmseer Returned to do, healing her daughter, while touching, isn't exactly the most important thing in the world. She helped people but I don't think it was really crucial.

Infant Returned seem to break more than one theory about who can Return. For example, how is any infant able to process visions of the future enough to make a decision whether to Return or not? My son's 8 months old and smart as a whip (proud father, forgive me for it), but I doubt he has the capacity to understand that kind of decision. And we're talking children younger than him... I think there has to be more to it than how you died and a decision. Endowment may force some people to Return because they need to. Come to think of it, it doesn't even really go against his/her Shard... endowing someone with something need not be voluntary.

I can except that infant Returned are a kind of special case maybe, possibly someone who wasn't supposed to die, like you said.

[frozndevl]

So one question I had was about Denth and his sister. It isn't explicitly stated, but I would assume that all five of the scholars were Returned. So what made them special enough that they both died and were able to return?

Edited by frozndevl, 30 April 2012 - 08:15 AM.

[Windrunner]

Umm, we don't know very much about the Manywar and the events leading up to it, so at this point it's still very much a mystery. However, it could be that they both gave up their lives (in accordance with this theory) for the same thing at the same time and thus Returned together. Brandon's going to delve into Nalthis's history a little more in Nightblood, so hopefully these questions will be answered.

[Asha'man]

so there is something sound to the Hallandren reasoning that you have to do something heroic in order to Return. (That's not true, but it is more sound a doctrine than Siri thinks it is.)

When I read this two things stick out to me as obvious. 1. It's not true that you have to do something brave in order to Return, but bravery is a possible route. To me this means that doing something brave may give you the opportunity to return, but it is not the only avenue for this outcome, nor does it guarantee your return. 2. You have to do something in order to return. Returning is not an opportunity given to every individual, and thus has certain requirements. So what requirements could brave actions fall under that also allow for other possibilities?
The key, to me, is endowment itself. Endowment is giving something to others, but doesn't necessarily have to involve bravery. Lightsong endowed his niece with life by sacrificing his own. Calmseer endowed others with health and aid. This sticks out to me as we are given the picture of her whole life and personality, not just the deed she accomplished immediately before she died. Blushweaver endowed the city with honesty and safety through her merchant practices and testimony against the criminals. She was known as an honest merchant which leads me to believe she also used her life to endow many times and not only in the instance right before her death. With this picture I see the requirements for return as endowment throughout life and not only endowment via death, though that may also be a contributing factor. This allow that brave actions may result in an chance to return, but actions outside the realm of bravery and sacrifice may also.
In the case of infants, perhaps their death endows their mothers with life, or somehow contributes to society as a whole. They seem to be the theory braking contraint in all things having to do with the returned.

*edited for proper quote box

Edited by Asha'man, 25 December 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Meg]

The key, to me, is endowment itself. Endowment is giving something to others, but doesn't necessarily have to involve bravery. Lightsong endowed his niece with life by sacrificing his own. Calmseer endowed others with health and aid. This sticks out to me as we are given the picture of her whole life and personality, not just the deed she accomplished immediately before she died. Blushweaver endowed the city with honesty and safety through her merchant practices and testimony against the criminals. She was known as an honest merchant which leads me to believe she also used her life to endow many times and not only in the instance right before her death. With this picture I see the requirements for return as endowment throughout life and not only endowment via death, though that may also be a contributing factor. This allow that brave actions may result in an chance to return, but actions outside the realm of bravery and sacrifice may also.

(my emphasizes)

Just for my understanding: Do you want to say that an "endowment throughout life" is the only way to get the possibility to return? That is, how I understand your posting. But if this would be the case, what "endowment" had lead Lightsong throughout his life? We only know that he had been a scribe in his previous life.

Or did I get you totally wrong?

[Senor Feesh]

(my emphasizes)

Just for my understanding: Do you want to say that an "endowment throughout life" is the only way to get the possibility to return? That is, how I understand your posting. But if this would be the case, what "endowment" had lead Lightsong throughout his life? We only know that he had been a scribe in his previous life.

Or did I get you totally wrong?

Seconded; I'd see either as being a possible avenue for Returning. IIRC Lightsong in life was a clerk who looked over people's ledgers/accounts searching for instances of fraud. Not particularly selfless, or a particular example of 'Endowment'. The others are a much better fit for endowment as a lifestyle choice however.