What is shardplate?

[WhiteEmporer]

So now that we know what shardblades are, what is shardplate? 
I've got a theory from  Oathbringer, but I'd like to know what y'all think.
I'll put my theory in a spoilertag to be nice, although if you haven't read the three current Stormlight books, this forum is probably not a safe place for you  
 

Spoiler

Don't have access to the text right now, but there's a scene in OB  while Kaladin, Shallan, and crew are on the spren ship. Kaladin is on the deck communicating mentally with Syl. The two big events in this scene:  the conversation reveals he is nearing his next oath; Kaladin is surrounded by a cloud of windspren, which are very rare  in Shadesmar.
I found this very illuminating, combined with some facts from the books.
-Radiants summon and dismiss plate, just like their blades

-There's a noticeable difference in plate before and after the Recreance (judging from Dalinar's )

-Pieces of plate are all connected. Two different pieces of the same plate can't be regrown into two sets.

-Each class of Radiant seems to attract a certain kind of lower spren (windspren for windrunners, creationspren for lightweavers, gloryspren for bonsmiths)

-And of course, the fact that Shardblades are manifestations of spren.

The best explanation for this: When a Radiant reaches a certain level, they (or their spren) are able to attract lower spren (in Kaladin's case, windspren), and forge them into Shardplate, using the methods radiant spren use to become Shardblades. They are all connected to the radiant and his spren (which explains point 2). These spren are lower and mindless, which is why they can't do it on their own, and why after the recreance, they were stuck in their solid form, and no longer connected to a blade. 
On the spren ship, Kaladin was about to progress to the next oath. If he had, the cloud of windspren would have coalesced into an epic set of plate. But of course Brandon likes to make us wait

 

Hopefully my genius theory isn't 17th Shard Old News. 

Also, while we're on shardplate, anyone have any explanations for this quote? (From FanX 2018)
 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

It's very subtle. At the end of Oathbringer, when Jasnah goes to find Shallan on the battlefield, she goes to grab Shallan, Shallan's over here as Radiant. She has Shards *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's a Read and Find Out. I'm being very coy on Shardplate, even though you have seen characters with it in the books before. Because I want to wait until I can do some reveals in viewpoint character.

I will tell you this: You have indeed seen people with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone.

 

[+ILuvHats he/him]

Yeah, this has already been theorized and seems the most likely explanation for shardplate.  But have an upvote for coming up with it on your own.

I believe the WoB is a reference to when we see Jasnah at the Battle of Thaylenah just after she dismisses her Plate, although I'm still confused by the question itself because of the inaudible portion.  Here's the passage from OB, in case your not familiar with it.

Quote

Instead, he [Adolin] found only Jasnah Kholin, looking completely nonplussed.  A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight.  Like geometric shapes outlining her...

 

[tmnsquirtle]

Quote

Yeah, this has already been theorized and seems the most likely explanation for shardplate. 

Just to play the devil's advocate here, it's a bit more contentious than 'the most likely explanation.' 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by tmnsquirtle

[Patrick Star]

This has been the general consensus for years now, basically since TWoK released.

There's a few alternative theories, but lesser spren has always been the simplest and most popular one.

[WhiteEmporer]

Well,I'm coming to the conclusion that it's practically impossible to come up with a theory that 17th hasn't thought of yet
At least I thought of it all by myself. Yay me  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 9/15/2018 at 5:39 PM, WhiteEmporer said:

Well,I'm coming to the conclusion that it's practically impossible to come up with a theory that 17th hasn't thought of yet
At least I thought of it all by myself. Yay me  

The spren are based on native Rosharan life, which pupates. The shard plate is the PR version of a spren silk cocoon like you see in some ants.

[+Child of Hodor]

The one thing people are unsure of with the lesser spren forming Shardplate similar to how radiant spren form the blades is why does Shardplate break while the Shardblades are neigh indestructible? Presumably they would form the same type of god metal. 

I think it is because they are lesser spren with a lesser bond to the radiant and therefore lesser connection to the physical realm making the physical form the take in the physical realm weaker.  Like a lesser alloy of the same god metal, not as strong. 

Or the lesser spren bond to the radiant spren who is bonded to the radiant. A degree of remove results in a weaker physical presence.

Quote

"So maybe you could do that," Kaladin said. "Find little, uh, bits of the wind? Or of Honor? Shape them?" ...

"Hmmm," Syl said. "I would be an excellent mother. I'd teach the little spren to fly, to coast the winds, to harass you." OB Ch. 10 Distractions

The writer reason is if plate was indestructible it would take away too much danger and drama. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Jace21 he/him]

On 10/3/2018 at 0:02 PM, Child of Hodor said:

The one thing people are unsure of with the lesser spren forming Shardplate similar to how radiant spren form the blades is why does Shardplate break while the Shardblades are neigh indestructible? Presumably they would form the same type of god metal. 

There a few things, not just one:

- its breakability as you mentioned

- why does it need stormlight when blades dont?

- why doesnt a radiant hear screaming when they touch it?

There are other threads going into more detail.

The lesser spren = shardplate theory is probably the most popular but by no means a sure thing yet. Solidified stormlight is another one I have seen mentioned.

[Calderis he/him]

As mentioned in my own thread, the biggest problem for me is, and always has been, Identity. 

For plate to allow the surges of the Radiant, and no one else's, it has to be keyed to the Radiant and no one else. Spren should have a distinct Identity of their own. If it is made of spren, why does it allow the surges of the Radiant? 

To change the Identity of the spren to that of the Radiant would imply a bond every bit as deep as that of the Nahel Spren. That or "killing" the Spren by making them into something completely different. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Calderis

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

There a few things, not just one:

- its breakability as you mentioned

- why does it need stormlight when blades dont?

- why doesnt a radiant hear screaming when they touch it?

There are other threads going into more detail.

The lesser spren = shardplate theory is probably the most popular but by no means a sure thing yet. Solidified stormlight is another one I have seen mentioned.

I would say the reason Shardplate needs Stormlight is related to them breaking and blades not breaking. 

@Calderis At the soul level they may be bonded the same. I think lesser spren like wind spren and glory spren have less cognition even in the cognitive realm they are basically animals.

They have less cognition to sacrifice when they come over and they gain less physical presence. Spren like Syl are smart like people in the cognitive realm. They have more to give in exchange for crossing into the physical realm and have a stronger presence there.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Calderis he/him]

24 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

@Calderis At the soul level they may be bonded the same. I think lesser spren like wind spren and glory spren have less cognition even in the cognitive realm they are basically animals.

They have less cognition to sacrifice when they come over and they gain less physical presence. Spren like Syl are smart like people in the cognitive realm. They have more to give in exchange for crossing into the physical realm and have a stronger presence there

That has nothing to do with Identity. 

Identity seems to function purely as a marker saying that the investiture of this person/thing is made of this thing. And everything, even inanimate objects, has it.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I wanted to ask whether cake has a soul? In Realmatic theory, stuff has souls. So, somebody turns wheat into flour, and flour has a soul. Do they come together when I bake the cake?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...So, this gets into some weird cosmere theory stuff. The level that if you are a student of philosophy, you'll recognize just wearing on the sleeve where this one came from. This is a mashup of Shinto beliefs and the theory of the forms by Plato, and kind of its own weird thing, that became Realmatic theory in the cosmere...

So, in the cosmere, things take on an Identity and a soul based on how people perceive them. It's human perception that is creating a lot of this, because the various powers that made the universe have this sort of desire to be sentient. And power left long too long in the cosmere starts thinking, that's just how it goes, and starts thinking of itself the way it is perceived. So, that cake, as soon as its created, the disparate parts of the souls start being thought of as a cake, and start gaining some traction as a cake. If you left that cake alone long enough, which wouldn't take too long for a cake because people don't look at cake and think "Oh, a bunch of wheat and flour." They think "Cake." That thing will start having a combined soul of the various bits of power, and the longer you leave it, the more permanency it's gonna have as a Spiritual artifact in the cosmere.

So, yes, cake has a soul.

source

Spren, being pure Investiture, and having an Identity of their own should not be keyed to the Radiant. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara she/her]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

That has nothing to do with Identity. 

Identity seems to function purely as a marker saying that the investiture of this person/thing is made of this thing. And everything, even inanimate objects, has it.

Spren, being pure Investiture, and having an Identity of their own should not be keyed to the Radiant. 

To restate: Just like how you can't Lash or Push/Pull on a Shardblade, you shouldn't be able to Lash yourself in Shardplate (even living Shardplate) if it's made of spren.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

My answer to the Identity issue involves the bond itself. When Radiant bonds to higher spren their soul blends. The connection strengthens as the Radiant progresses. We see this several times. When Kaladin fights and Syl instantly shifts to the weapon he needs or when Syl and Kaladin talk on the ship in Shadesmar. If the 2 souls begin to look like one soul Spiritually then they will have the same Identity in a Realmatic sense. Shardplate follows along those lines but instead of human and spren bonding it's a spren to spren connection, one that can be pulled into the Physical Realm like humans pull Shardblades. And while it's true that it's difficult if not impossible to lash Invested objects, it should not be a problem to lash something the lasher invested themselves. The lesser spren are in effect the Radiant's metalmind, with the Nahel Spren serving as mediary.

[Jace21 he/him]

11 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I would say the reason Shardplate needs Stormlight is related to them breaking and blades not breaking. 

How would that help in this case?

If a Radiant is required to bond the spren, then just Stormlight can't replace that bond.

If your lesser spren = weaker godmetal/Plate theory is right then once the plate is broken they should just lose their ties to the physical and be primarily cognitive again. I wouldnt help at that point or we'd have Plate metal forming over every infused gem on Roshar.

[NoiseSpren he/him]

20 hours ago, RShara said:

Just like how you can't Lash or Push/Pull on a Shardblade, you shouldn't be able to Lash yourself in Shardplate (even living Shardplate) if it's made of spren.

So, when Kaladin falls for example skyward (oh, yeah!), his Sylblade wants to fall downward when sumonned.

I don't think so. In that case, you would fall down when halflashing yourself upward because of shardblade. It would be Very Hard to fight in air like that. It does'nt make any sense.

 

On 10/5/2018 at 10:35 AM, Child of Hodor said:

I would say the reason Shardplate needs Stormlight is related to them breaking and blades not breaking

No, it is because of enchanting streng AND repairing.

[+Child of Hodor]

10 hours ago, Jace21 said:

How would that help in this case?

If a Radiant is required to bond the spren, then just Stormlight can't replace that bond.

If your lesser spren = weaker godmetal/Plate theory is right then once the plate is broken they should just lose their ties to the physical and be primarily cognitive again. I wouldnt help at that point or we'd have Plate metal forming over every infused gem on Roshar.

As long as there is a fragment of it left in the physical realm they are still in the physical realm and can be regrown. I don't think we've seen an instance where every single piece of a shardplate was completely destroyed, shattered into molten metal where there was nothing left. In a case like that there would be no way to repair it. As long as some of it is still around it can be regrown. The gemstones serve as a substitute bond like the gems in the blades. 

The shardblades are formed by gaseous Stormlight condensing into a Shardblade according to this WoB. I take this to mean the spren "bodies" are made of Stormlight which they can condense into metal. The plate are probably also condensed Stormlight. That's why they regrow with infused gems. 

Quote

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)
#1 

Questioner

Why does Stormlight make things cold?

Brandon Sanderson

It’s not the Stormlight, it’s condensation because something is going directly from a gas into a solid. The coldness is caused by that, it’s not necessarily that the Stormlight is making things cold, but that the Shardblade is condensing.

 

Here is a WoB confirming that Stormlight is the gaseous form investiture. 

 

Quote

 

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)
#1 

Argent

Since both the mists and Stormlight are very similar in many ways, are there gaseous, liquid, and solid states of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, but you know that there is a gas and a liquid.

Argent

The gas is just the stuff in the storms, right?

Questioner

Isn’t there the lake?

Brandon Sanderson

The lake is liquid. So you know there’s two of the three already. So just sayin'...

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

No, it is because of enchanting streng AND repairing.

Yeah that's what I was trying to say. The Blades don't break so they don't need to be repaired. Plate breaks, it needs stormlight to repair. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

So, when Kaladin falls for example skyward (oh, yeah!), his Sylblade wants to fall downward when sumonned.

I don't think so. In that case, you would fall down when halflashing yourself upward because of shardblade. It would be Very Hard to fight in air like that. It does'nt make any sense.

Well the Blade is so light that it makes very little difference. And during summoning, it appears to have the same momentum as he does when it appears.

[Jace21 he/him]

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

As long as there is a fragment of it left in the physical realm they are still in the physical realm and can be regrown. I don't think we've seen an instance where every single piece of a shardplate was completely destroyed, shattered into molten metal where there was nothing left. In a case like that there would be no way to repair it.

This doesn't square up with pieces of Plate shattering though. The piece doesnt just break, the broken piece disappears completely. That means at least some of those minor spren no longer exist in the physical realm, and Stormlight cant bring them back.

The pieces left can't contain all the spren or it would mean some part of them existed fully in the physical realm but not the rest, which doesnt make sense. Syl cant make a smaller blade and still be in spren from to fly around and look at things. She is either a blade or she isnt.

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The gemstones serve as a substitute bond like the gems in the blades. 

But they dont. The gem isnt required for the blade to work, whereas the plate does. You cant summon/dismiss plate and you can a blade. You dont have to wear the plate for it to repair itself, so nothing is bonded to you. No bond has to be broken to pass the plate on. 

The gems seem to serve completely different functions.

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The shardblades are formed by gaseous Stormlight condensing into a Shardblade according to this WoB. I take this to mean the spren "bodies" are made of Stormlight which they can condense into metal. The plate are probably also condensed Stormlight. That's why they regrow with infused gems. 

Here is a WoB confirming that Stormlight is the gaseous form investiture.

I dont think that is what the WoB is saying. He specifically says the cold is NOT from the stormlight. The blade materialising causes the frost. No where does he say the blade is stormlight or vice versa.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

 

I dont think that is what the WoB is saying. He specifically says the cold is NOT from the stormlight. The blade materialising causes the frost. No where does he say the blade is stormlight or vice versa.

It is saying the Stormlight doesn't make everything cold on it's own. Stormlight condensing to form the blade is what causes the cold. The other WoB I quoted Brandon says Stormlight is gaseous form of investiture and the horneater lakes are liquid investiture on Roshar. He says there is a third one. It's the metal that makes up both the plate and the blade. 

Quote

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)
#1 

Questioner

Why does Stormlight make things cold?

Brandon Sanderson

It’s not the Stormlight, it’s condensation because something is going directly from a gas into a solid. The coldness is caused by that, it’s not necessarily that the Stormlight is making things cold, but that the Shardblade is condensing.

 

 

Quote

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)
#51 

Questioner

I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

Brandon Sanderson

Breath is definitely like mist, it is in the form of the air.

Questioner

And is Stormlight the same?

Brandon Sanderson

Stormlight is the same.

 

Another WoB where he directly compares the investiture in a shardblade to stormlight that people breathe in. 

 

Quote

Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014)
#38 ased)

What you can tell me about Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That is the word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium, so the original whatever-it-is. Like a Shardblade is an Invested object, and people if they draw in the Stormlight, they're drawing in the magic--they're Invested.

 

Quote

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)
#1 

Argent

Since both the mists and Stormlight are very similar in many ways, are there gaseous, liquid, and solid states of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, but you know that there is a gas and a liquid.

Argent

The gas is just the stuff in the storms, right?

Questioner

Isn’t there the lake?

Brandon Sanderson

The lake is liquid. So you know there’s two of the three already. So just sayin'...

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Jace21 he/him]

Like I already said, thats NOT what he says. What he says is that the cold is from the Shardblade condensing. Nowhere does he say it condenses from Stormlight. We know it is the physical manifestation of a spren, Stormlight need not be present. 

Spren =/= Stormlight. They are both investiture, but they're not the same.

The same condensation seems to have happened to Taln at the end of WoK. Is he made of stormlight too?

He only compares a shardblade to a person holding Stormlight in as much that they are both invested. He doesnt say they are the same thing.

Yes, there are gaseous, liquid and solid forms of investiture, but they are still distinct. It is not so simple as saying that because a Shardblade is solid investiture and Stormlight is gaseous investiture that a Shardblade is solid Stormlight.

[kuiinteth of isaana he/him]

15 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

So, when Kaladin falls for example skyward (oh, yeah!), his Sylblade wants to fall downward when sumonned.

I don't think so. In that case, you would fall down when halflashing yourself upward because of shardblade. It would be Very Hard to fight in air like that. It does'nt make any sense.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but it would actually be harder in my opinion to adapt to fighting with a completely weightless sword, if you lashed it. My theory is that Kal would just instinctively lash himself up that little bit more as he is summoning his shardblade so it doesn't make him descend.

[NoiseSpren he/him]

5 hours ago, kuiinteth of isaana said:

Not to beat a dead horse, but it would actually be harder in my opinion to adapt to fighting with a completely weightless sword, if you lashed it. My theory is that Kal would just instinctively lash himself up that little bit more as he is summoning his shardblade so it doesn't make him descend.

It would not be weightless. It would still act by Newton's laws.

And about that instinct lashing... What about summoning it while already halflashed? Do you need to lash again?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

20 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Here is a WoB confirming that Stormlight is the gaseous form investiture.

Unfortunately things going solid does not release cold, it releases heat in the physical sense. Try solidifying a glass of water with ice cubes in it. While the cubes grow, temperature will not fall below freezing.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Oltux72
omitted word put in

[StormblessedSurvivor he/him]

Even if somebody has already thought of this, that makes me think of how Hoid says people prize novelty most-but you still came up with it on your own. I personally have never really thought of that

[kuiinteth of isaana he/him]

On 10/6/2018 at 6:12 AM, NoiseSpren said:

It would not be weightless. It would still act by Newton's laws.

And about that instinct lashing... What about summoning it while already halflashed? Do you need to lash again?

fair point noise, but the pull of gravity does affect how you move your weapon, and I like the idea of the Blade being half lashed before he summons it, but Blades are supposed to be hard to lash because Investiture interference

Edited October 23, 2018 by kuiinteth of isaana