Theory: KR Destroyed Stormseat – Cause of Recreance

[Confused]

Because all my WoR theories have proved catastrophically wrong, I thought I’d try another: the cause of the Recreance was the KR’s destruction of Stormseat. Evidence:

1. The Listener’s Song of War, 55^th Stanza states :

"They blame our people

For the loss of that land.

The city that once covered it

Did range the eastern strand.

The power made known in the tomes of our clan

Our gods were not who shattered these plains."

 

This seems to refer to Stormseat. If not the Listeners, then “who shattered these plains”? I posit that it was the KR.

 

2. WoB (somewhere) is that a “great magic” shattered the plains.

 

3. Chapter 38, page 6 of the Words of Radiance (epigraph to WoR Chapter 38) states

 

“Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest.”

 

4. Chapter 38, page 6 of the Words of Radiance (epigraph to WoR Chapter 40, which appears to follow the preceding paragraph consecutively or close to) states

 

"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named."

 

5. Chapter 38, page 20 states

 

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

 

6. Perhaps most tellingly, we discover that the only operational Oathgate is in Stormseat. The host cities of every other Oathgate had sealed their Oathgates, as if to prevent the KR from coming into their city.

 

I suggest that in the absence of further Desolations, some of the KR became involved in political disputes, helping the armies of some of the Silver Kingdoms against others: “the fighting was particularly intense at the time…”

 

Whatever the “wicked thing of eminence” was, it clearly breached the Windrunners’ sense of honor, since they were the first (“primary”) to abandon their oaths. Even participating in mundane wars probably was considered dishonorable by the Windrunners, but it’s doubtful that alone would have precipitated a mass forswearing of oaths.

 

Thus, the breach of honor had to be “wicked” and “eminent.” Shattering the plains (and Stormseat) would certainly qualify. I vote that the Skybreakers, on their own or enlisted in a competing army’s cause, used their gravitational and division surges to fly over the plains and irrevocably break them. I also believe they were the one order that kept their arms and hid “at the expense of the other nine.”

 

Finally, I further believe that the Skybreakers were the "One [KR order who] is almost certainly a traitor to the others" (epigraph to WoR chapter 86, from the Diagram). The others, nonetheless, took the fall for the Skybreaker’s evil.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Confused

[name_here]

I suppose it's possible, but it seems a bit large-scale. The Plains were apparently shattered by a single massive impact in the vicinity of the Oathgate. Even for an entire Radiant order, that would be pretty difficult.

 

Though I suppose it's possible they managed to fool the other orders into helping out, which would also explain why they'd foreswear their oaths instead of hunting down the Skybreakers.

[Moogle]

I suppose it's possible, but it seems a bit large-scale. The Plains were apparently shattered by a single massive impact in the vicinity of the Oathgate. Even for an entire Radiant order, that would be pretty difficult.

 

Shallan offers another hypothesis:

 

“More than that,” she said, standing. “I know too much now to die out here. The Shattered Plains are a pattern . This isn’t a natural rock formation.” Her eyes widened further. “At the center of these Plains was a city. Something broke it apart. A weapon . . . Vibrations? Like sand on a plate? An earthquake that could break rock . . . Stone became sand, and at the blowing of the highstorms , the cracks full of sand were hollowed out.”

 

I'd guess that the listeners in decayform caused earthquakes, and that resulted in this.

 

 

They blame our people For the loss of that land. The city that once covered it Did range the eastern strand. The power made known in the tomes of our clan Our gods were not who shattered these plains. —From the Listener Song of Wars, 55th stanza

[xbauks he/him]

Because all my WoR theories have proved catastrophically wrong, I thought I’d try another: the cause of the Recreance was the KR’s destruction of Stormseal. Evidence:

• The Listener’s Song of War, 55^th Stanza states :

"They blame our people

For the loss of that land.

The city that once covered it

Did range the eastern strand.

The power made known in the tomes of our clan

Our gods were not who shattered these plains."

This seems to refer to Stormseal. If not the Listeners, then “who shattered these plains”? I posit that it was the KR.

2. WoB (somewhere) is that a “great magic” shattered the plains.

3. Chapter 38, page 6 of the Words of Radiance (epigraph to WoR Chapter 38) states

“Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest.”

4. Chapter 38, page 6 of the Words of Radiance (epigraph to WoR Chapter 40, which appears to follow the preceding paragraph consecutively or close to) states

"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named."

5. Chapter 38, page 20 states

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

6. Perhaps most tellingly, we discover that the only operational Oathgate is in Stormseal. The host cities of every other Oathgate had sealed their Oathgates, as if to prevent the KR from coming into their city.

I suggest that in the absence of further Desolations, some of the KR became involved in political disputes, helping the armies of some of the Silver Kingdoms against others: “the fighting was particularly intense at the time…”

Whatever the “wicked thing of eminence” was, it clearly breached the Windrunners’ sense of honor, since they were the first (“primary”) to abandon their oaths. Even participating in mundane wars probably was considered dishonorable by the Windrunners, but it’s doubtful that alone would have precipitated a mass forswearing of oaths.

Thus, the breach of honor had to be “wicked” and “eminent.” Shattering the plains (and Stormseal) would certainly qualify. I vote that the Skybreakers, on their own or enlisted in a competing army’s cause, used their gravitational and division surges to fly over the plains and irrevocably break them. I also believe they were the one order that kept their arms and hid “at the expense of the other nine.”

Finally, I further believe that the Skybreakers were the "One [KR order who] is almost certainly a traitor to the others" (epigraph to WoR chapter 86, from the Diagram). The others, nonetheless, took the fall for the Skybreaker’s evil.

The Skybreakers shattering Natanatan seems like a possible theory. They may even be the traitors. But the order in hiding described in very specific words. Subterfuge is a word that does not describe the Skybreakers. Windrunners, Stonewards and Skybreakers are the least capable of subterfuge. Unless of course their spren or Nahel bond was corrupted. We have no evidence of it though.

[Confused]

Name_Here: I think of the Skybreakers as B-52 bombers to the Windrunners fighter jets. The Skybreakers can deposit their laser "bombs" (that is, however they deliver their division surge) onto a single target simultaneously and repeatedly as a group. I'm sure such power could collectively create sufficient force to shatter the plains in the way Shallan indicated: "Vibrations? Like sand on a plate? An earthquake that could break rock..."

 

Moogle: Decayform is "A form of gods to avoid, it seems" (Listener's Song of Secrets, 27th Stanza, WoR Epigraph to Chapter 24). But the Listener's Song of War, 55th Stanza (WoR Epigraph to Chapter 26), quoted above, explicitly states that "Our gods were not who shattered these plains..." (emphasis added).

 

xbauks: "Subterfuge" (according to Merriam-Webster) is the "the use of tricks especially to hide, avoid, or get something." While Skybreakers may not be subtle like Lightweavers, anybody can use subterfuge to avoid a consequence, especially when they can fly.

 

But this is just a theory, based primarily on my OP points 1 and 6: who shattered the plains if not the Parshendi (the only other candidates would be one of the three Shards, certainly a possibility); and why is Stormseat the only open Oathgate? The latter suggests that the other cities with Oathgates feared the KR after what happened to Stormseat.

 

Aside: I very much enjoy reading the posts written by the three of you. Many others are great too, but many others aren't. Thanks for taking the time to respond!

[Chaos he/him]

I know this topic is quite old, but didn't Stormseat fall during the Last Desolation?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

At least according to Shallan, yes: 

 

 

“The Shattered Plains haven’t always been shattered ,” Shallan whispered to herself. “That’s what the scholars, all but Jasnah, are missing. Stormseat was destroyed during the Last Desolation, but it was so long ago, nobody talks about how. Fire ? Earthquake? No. Something more terrible. The city was broken, like a piece of fine dinnerware hit with a hammer.”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 737). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

But that doesn't mean too much since the times between the last desolation, the Silver Kingdoms, the Recreance, and "current time" are so vast that there's no telling when exactly it was destroyed. It could have been the act that kicked off the Recreance... but I kind of doubt it. It took the Everstorm to affect the plains again, so I think the initial shattering would have to have been much more destructive than surgebinders...

 

Maybe it was the act of Nalan in conjunction with his order of Skybreakers all together... that might have approached the right power levels

Edited June 13, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Moogle]

Shallan's description fits cymatics being used - which means sound. Perhaps thousands of Lightweavers could produce the sound necessary, but we have a much more plausible explanation: a bunch of listeners caught up in a magical sound ritual. Or decayform like I previously suggested, but I think some sort of listener earth-shattering ritual sounds better.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

It might have been something related to the Listeners, but I'm swayed away from that by a few things. 

1. The Listener's Song, Stanza 55 quoted in the OP
2. Shallan's description says the city was "broken, like... find dinnerware hit with a hammer"
3. When Kaladin flies over the plains in his dream flight it says: 

 

He roared past the Shattered Plains. They looked as if something very large had hit them at the center, sending rippling breaks outward. They too were larger than he’d expected; no wonder nobody had been able to find their way through the chasms.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 646). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 4. Skybreakers seems to fit the concept of a hammer dropped from on high

 

I suppose that could all point to some sort of earthquake/voidbringer power, but I think it point to something striking from the sky downwards, which to me says Skybreakers. Both Shallan and Kaladin see basically the same thing, a single impact point that fractures outward. 

 

We know there was betrayal in the KR and that an order turned against the rest. 

 

Could this all be red herrings? I guess so, but it feels right to me. The big question to me, is when did Stormseat get destroyed, in the Last Desolation or afterwards? 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[kari-no-sugata]

At least according to Shallan, yes: 

 

But that doesn't mean too much since the times between the last desolation, the Silver Kingdoms, the Recreance, and "current time" are so vast that there's no telling when exactly it was destroyed. It could have been the act that kicked off the Recreance... but I kind of doubt it. It took the Everstorm to affect the plains again, so I think the initial shattering would have to have been much more destructive than surgebinders...

 

Maybe it was the act of Nalan in conjunction with his order of Skybreakers all together... that might have approached the right power levels

 

I think Shallan's notes came from Jasnah's.

 

Here's another reference - Navani says in chapter 77:

 

"It's been centuries since that city fell. It was destroyed during Aharietiam itself, I believe.

 

That Navani can say this immediately and without any reference to books suggests it's fairly common knowledge (among scholars) that it fell during the Last Desolation. btw, bit curious why she says "centuries" rather than millennia since Aharietiam was 4500 years ago.

 

PS Anyone know what happened on 0 year on the calendar? eg, the year is 1173 in WoR, so 1173 years since what? It's not the War of Loss / Hierocracy since that was 500 years ago.

[Shaggai]

I doubt that the destruction of Stormseat was the cause of the Recreance. It just doesn't fit. These are people who've been specifically chosen as the sort of people who will abide by their oaths. Why would they suddenly break their sacred oaths and murder their spren just because some of them had destroyed Stormseat? It's possible that the destruction happened because of the Recreance (since the Recreance almost certainly happened during Aharietam), but I doubt it would be the cause.

[kari-no-sugata]

I doubt that the destruction of Stormseat was the cause of the Recreance. It just doesn't fit. These are people who've been specifically chosen as the sort of people who will abide by their oaths. Why would they suddenly break their sacred oaths and murder their spren just because some of them had destroyed Stormseat? It's possible that the destruction happened because of the Recreance (since the Recreance almost certainly happened during Aharietam), but I doubt it would be the cause.

 

The Recreance was definitely long after Aharietam. We saw Aharietam in the first scene and there were Radiants there. Also, per Jasnah in tWoK (when talking about the drawing of the Voidbringer) says it was from several generations after Aharietam but before the Recreance. In addition, in the History of Man page in tWoK its listed after and is distinct - there would be no need for that if they were close together.

[Shaggai]

The Recreance was definitely long after Aharietam. We saw Aharietam in the first scene and there were Radiants there. Also, per Jasnah in tWoK (when talking about the drawing of the Voidbringer) says it was from several generations after Aharietam but before the Recreance. In addition, in the History of Man page in tWoK its listed after and is distinct - there would be no need for that if they were close together.

True. I guess the Recreance wasn't during Aharietam. But one of the epigraphs in WoR says "As the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal." What would the Radiants have been fighting at that point?

[kari-no-sugata]

True. I guess the Recreance wasn't during Aharietam. But one of the epigraphs in WoR says "As the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal." What would the Radiants have been fighting at that point?

 

Hmm, I thought I had a post on this specifically, but I'll point you to this instead:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8022-how-did-the-recreance-happen/#entry136072

 

Indeed, the Voidbringers were gone after Aharietiam. Basically, I think that after Aharietiam there was nothing that could stand up to the Radiants... except themselves. Unless there's some mysterious 3rd force that is equal to 1000s of Radiants in combat strength then the only thing that could stand up to Radiants at the time would be other Radiants.

[name_here]

It seems odd to me that the Recreance would result from a civil war. Even if the Radiants were disgusted by having to fight other orders, I'd expect them to want to bring down the rogue order before throwing down their weapons. Also, the encrypted Diagram epigraph mentions holding the secret that brought down the Knights Radiant, and for it to still be relevant to the reformed orders it's got to be something more substantial than treason by people thousands of years dead.

[Telcontar]

Moogle: Decayform is "A form of gods to avoid, it seems" (Listener's Song of Secrets, 27th Stanza, WoR Epigraph to Chapter 24). But the Listener's Song of War, 55th Stanza (WoR Epigraph to Chapter 26), quoted above, explicitly states that "Our gods were not who shattered these plains..." (emphasis added).

 

The Song only says that it were not the Listener's gods who shattered the plains. It may very well have been the Listeners themselves in a Voidform (forms of their gods). I'd make a distinction between the gods and Listeners using forms of gods.

 

So during the Last Desolation the Voidbringers (Listeners using Voidforms) fought against the KR. Stormseat, being a city of the KR would be a nice goal to destroy for Voidbringers, right? The KR would rather be the ones defending Stormseat.