Recreance and Hierocracy

[Meg]

I don't know if this has been brought up already and apologize in advance if I'm only repeating things.

TWoK Chapter 8 (Nearer the Flames) says:

 

“For history, we have two choices,” the merchant said, condescension—and friendliness—gone. “Times and Passage, by Rencalt, is a single volume survey of Rosharan history since the Hierocracy.” His wife held up a red, cloth-bound volume. “I told my wife that you would likely be insulted by such a shallow option, but she insisted.”

“Thank you,” Shallan said. “I am not insulted, but I do require something more detailed.”

“Then perhaps Eternathis will serve you,” he said as his wife held up a blue-grey set of four volumes. “It is a philosophical work which examines the same time period by focusing only on the interactions of the five Vorin kingdoms. As you can see, the treatment is exhaustive.”

The four volumes were thick. The five Vorin kingdoms? She’d thought there were four. Jah Keved, Alethkar, Kharbranth, and Natanatan. United by religion, they had been strong allies during the years following the Recreance. What was the fifth kingdom?

(emphasizes mine)

Those emphasized parts imply that the Hierocracy and the Recreance have a strong temporal connection. It doesn't imply whether the Hierocracy caused the Recreance or only followed it, unfortunately.

I would assume that the Recreance and the begin of the Hierocracy have been at (nearly) the same time in the past. I, too, could imagine that the begin of the Hierocracy was day 0 of the current calender.

If this quote has been discussed already I'd appreciate a link.

Otherwise: Any thoughts?

[Chlehrma]

Perhaps the 5th vorin kingdom is the one that fell into dust--one of the quotes at the beginning of a chapter.

[11thorderknight]

There's a quote in a teaser of Words of Radiance that Herdaz, while somewhat different from Alethkar/Jah Keved, is technically Vorin.

[xbauks]

I thought the Recreance resulted in the Hierocracy. The betrayal of the KR being such a blow to the moral of the people that the Vorin church was able to step in and sieze control.

[The Rooster]

I imagine a time gap. There would have been a vacuum of power following the Recreance. And the Vorin church probably scooped it up along with those who became kings of the perspective nations. But it would take time for Vorinism to grow to a world dominating power. Hundreds of years at the least. It sure didn't seem like they came to super power thru mega military might (shards). Tho the Sunmaker undoubtedly broke it with military might.

[Chlehrma]

Being that there were ten Orders of KR and there are 10 devotaries in Vorinism, I think that the fallen heralds actually infiltrated the religious sects and are the illuminati of the Vorin kingdoms...insert X-Files-like conspiracy music here.

[hoser]

Great catch, Meg!  I've never seen discussion of this particular quote

 

I assume that the Hierocracy followed the Recreance because I think the Knights would have stopped the Hierocracy if they were around (and WoR spoilers). 

 

My own sense of the timeline has the Recreance very distant and the Hierocracy significantly more recent.  The juxtaposition of the highlighted sections is certainly curious. 

 

A timeline such as the following seems consistent with the OP quote:

• Recreance
• Significant time where Jah Keved, Alethkar, Kharbranth, and Natanatan were strong allies, possibly in the face of chaos as existing power structures adjusted to the presence of Shardblades in their arsenals. 
• Rise of the Hierocracy (this could have caused rifts between the above four kingdoms, as they would all have had to give up their nationhood to the Hierocracy)
• Hierocracy strong period ending with the rise of Sunmaker and the fall of the Hierocracy
• The modern era covered by those histories.  I would guess that the calendar started with Sunmaker toppling the Hierocracy and starting the "Era of Freedom from Religious Tyranny".  The histories cover five Vorin kingdoms, only four of which worked closely together much earlier. 

It does raise some interesting questions:

• Why would Shallan be so sure about certain countries working together closely following the Recreance when that history is so poorly understood?  Particularly when she doesn't even know all the Vorin countries in a later time period. 
• What did happen immediately following the Recreance?  Was there chaos, or did the existing countries just change leadership as the new Shardbearers took over and molded the history to justify their rule.  Were historical records largely destroyed in this time period? 
• It would make sense for histories to focus on the time since the fall of the Hierocracy. The combination of post-Recreance chaos (hypothesized), Hierocracy propagandizing and Sunmaker propagandizing could have made records scarce and/or inaccurate.  Is that what happened?

Then there are the obvious questions:

• What is the timeline (including what happened 1173 years ago and the start of the current calendar)?
• How did the Hierocracy interact with the existing countries?
• What has happened since the Sunmaker?

[Meg]

Hey Hoser, thanks for your reply.

It made me have a look for "Hierocracy" in TWoK and I find myself contradicted .

 

Looked at another way, those phantom commands to “unify” sounded a great deal like what the Hierocracy had said when it had tried to conquer the world five centuries before.

TWoK Chapter 26 (emphasizes mine)

I should have thought about searching for information about when the Hierocracy happened, before I posted my OP.

So you are right with this:

 

Significant time where Jah Keved, Alethkar, Kharbranth, and Natanatan were strong allies, possibly in the face of chaos as existing power structures adjusted to the presence of Shardblades in their arsenals.

Rise of the Hierocracy (this could have caused rifts between the above four kingdoms, as they would all have had to give up their nationhood to the Hierocracy)

As well as AG Rooster was.

As for the Sunmaker:

 

“All wars are games. The greatest kind, with the pieces lost real lives, the prizes captured making for real wealth! This is the life for which men exist. To fight, to kill, to win.” He was quoting the Sunmaker, the last Alethi king to unite the highprinces. Gavilar had once revered his name.

TWoK Chapter 24

And:

 

Dalinar was the Blackthorn, a genius of the battlefield and a living legend. Together, he and his brother had reunited Alethkar’s warring highprinces after centuries of strife.

TWoK Chapter 12

Though the Sunmaker was said to have ended the Hierocracy, he was an Alethi king and wouldn't he have united (only) the Alethi Highprinces? His efforts don't seem to have lasted long, as for the last quote says that Gavilar and Dalinar had reunited Alethkar’s warring highprinces after centuries of strife.

Briefly speaking: The Hierocracy started around five centuries ago. It surely had no effect on the current calender.

Those last five centuries seem to be packed with great events: The rise of the Hierocracy, the Sunmaker with the fall of the Hierocracy and the reunification of the Highprinces, that reunion desintegrating again, "centuries of strife" until Gavilar reunited the Alethi Highprinces once more.

All this information seem to focus on Alethkar ...

A last thought: I could imagine that the fifth Kingdom was Rilir resp. Herdaz.

[AerionBFII]

I don't think the  Hierocracy is quite finished, i think the Ardentia has plans for power again;

I can't remember the quote but during a feast an Ardent speaks to Dalinar and says that 'they' would want to speak to him again.. This is after a High Prince uses an ardent in a political conversation to a foreign dignitary. 

 

I think there will be a sect within the Vorin devotaries, like a secret sect similar to the Ghostbloods with their own secret agenda..

[Tarion]

I suspect the social conditions that led to the Hierocracy (Mysticism, power of the priests, etc.) probably followed on the back of the Recreance, but built up over a long time.  

 

Because the loss of Knights Radiant leads to something pretty significant - The world lost a lot of it's Soulcasters working towards the common good.  Without the Knights Radiant, who was providing food?  Who was making housing?  In WoK, Dalinar wonders where the Shards for the everyday man are.  The answer is that in the time of the KR, the working man didn't need shards, because you don't need advanced strength and durability to work on physical projects when someone can just Soulcast whatever you're trying to dig.  Think back to Starfalls, the flashback with Midnight's Essence.  Taffa couldn't imagine people being able to dig through stone.  The world with the Knights Radiant didn't need that sort of know how.

 

Once they're gone, someone with the ability to Soulcast could easily rise to power.  Especially with the mysticism that Vorinism associates with the Soulcasting.