Dynamic progression of Oaths

[Calderis he/him]

I posted this general idea in a thread on the Edgedancer spoiler board, and wanted to move it here to make it more accessible and get some more feedback on people's thoughts for and against. 

First off, I want to say this is my personal head canon, and due to that it's pure speculation. So here goes. 

In both instances we've seen Kaladin speak an oath, there's been an outpouring of stormlight, and a glyph formed. In every other instance those grand visuals have been absent and I think I know why. 

The Oaths are benchmarks that solidify the advancement of a radiant to the next level within an order by permanently strengthening the Nahel Bond. The Oaths are important for this binding aspect, and place additional restrictions upon the Radiant to ensure that they do not abuse their powers and harm their spren. 

I don't think the Oaths are the only part of progressing as a Radiant though.

In both cases of Kaladin's Oaths, he had been conflicted either by his depression or his personal feelings, to the point of Syl's temporary death before the second oath. At the first Oath, there's a debate in his head between taking the bridge and fleeing, or helping Dalinar. The second oath is his split about Elhokar. In both instances, almost immediately before speaking the Oaths, Kaladin comes to a realization about what he must do and then rushes in and speaks the Oaths. Voila, lightshow ensues because Kaladin's bond has leapt from one benchmark to the next.

Now lets compare this to the others.

When Shallan advances, she must speak a truth, specifically about herself. The Lightweaver order requires self awareness. The nature of these truths, while not impossible to come to a sudden realization, lend themselves to slow learning and discovery rather than sudden intuitive leaps. With Shallan we see her approach these truths multiple times and back away mentally. She was becoming more ready to speak her truth incrementally, and so her advancements lack the sudden leap forward.

Lift (edgedancer spoilers) 

Spoiler

For her first Oath I haven't thought about it much. For the second Lift needs to reach roughly the third oath for Wyndel to manifest as a blade. Early in the book, Wyndel is dropping big hints that she needs to progress so she can do this. So he obviously isn't able to at that point.

Then look at the Oath itself. "I will listen to those who have been ignored." she spends the whole book doing this. So she may not have actually spoken the third Oath, but she's clearly working her way towards it, and by the climax has already progressed enough that Wyndel can manifest. All she really had left to do was speak the oath and set it in stone. 

Dalinar had spoken to both Kaladin and Shallan by the time he spoke his Oaths and had essentially been focused on doing exactly what his Oath was for the entire story to this point. The only reason he wasn't a full blown radiant I'm the same way as the others in the story is because he's a Bondsmith and the Stormfather wasn't willing to bond until forced. He was already mentally adhering to that Oath regardless of how successful his efforts were. 

So I think what we're seeing is that when the Oaths are spoken, the larger a leap forward it is, the more flashy the actual event is going to be. Kaladin lends himself well to this, because his inner turmoil keeps him from changing his thoughts and opinions until he is placed in a moral dilemma. He's too stubborn for his own good, so when he reaches the intuitive leap necessary, he covers a lot of ground quickly. 

That's pretty much it. I know it's speculation, but I would like feedback on if there's some realmatic reason to support or refute it. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Calderis
Added a Paragraph about Dalinar

[Agent34]

Not sure if I can contribute to this specifically but I recall a WoB on the glyphs around Kal and the response was that it was something more related to him than to other Radiants or his Order IIRC.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Not sure if I can contribute to this specifically but I recall a WoB on the glyphs around Kal and the response was that it was something more related to him than to other Radiants or his Order IIRC.

Hmmm. If that wording is correct, I think that fits what I'm saying. Time to go search WoBs! 

[+Extesian he/him]

Nice work Calderis, as I said on the other thread where you casually dropped this idea, I'm on board unless and until we see counter evidence. 

And this is the relevant WoB

Quote

ARGENT

When Kaladin speaks his oath, there’s always a very visual explosion of power, like a glyph.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That doesn’t necessarily happen with them all, and you’ll find out why.

There may be another but that's the one I was aware of when you proposed this and it's why it fitted immediately. 

[galendo]

I'm not completely sure what I think about the glyph and the Stormlight boost, but my working theory at the moment is that it's something to do with the Windrunners.  We've seen oaths (or the equivalent) from a Bondsmith, a Lightweaver, an Edgedancer, and a Windrunner, and only the Windrunner got the boost.

It could be -- somehow -- that Kaladin is special, or maybe that Syl is.  After all, he's not just a Windrunner but, at the moment, the only Windrunner, since Syl was the only honorspren to come across.  Since Dalinar is the only Bondsmith, though, I'm a bit hesitant to adopt this interpretation.  I do think it's significant that Kaladin's the only Radiant we've seen get the boost, though.

I'd be curious to know whether rules for the boost were the same pre-Recreance as it is today.  My hunch is that they weren't -- that the boost we see (or don't see, most of the time) is tied somehow to Honor's shattering.

Come to think of it, it could be that only the spren that were around pre-Recreance provide the boost.  Maybe it was like Tanavast's version of a congratulatory postcard, or something.  We know:

Syl - Has "helped men kill before", i.e., was around pre-Recreance.

Pattern - IIRC, says that all the Cryptics at the time were killed.  Not around pre-Recreance.

Stormfather - Was sort of around pre-Recreance, but not as the same spren that he is today.

Wyndle - Wasn't around pre-Recreance (not completely certain, but strongly implied in AU).

I don't think we know about Ivory or Glys, unless there's hints in the Oathbringer snippets, which I haven't read yet.  Someone correct me if we have evidence either way.  But so far, Syl seems like the only Recreance-era spren we've seen, and Kaladin's the only one who got the boost.  Maybe not a coincidence?

[Calderis he/him]

7 hours ago, galendo said:

 

I'm not completely sure what I think about the glyph and the Stormlight boost, but my working theory at the moment is that it's something to do with the Windrunners.  We've seen oaths (or the equivalent) from a Bondsmith, a Lightweaver, an Edgedancer, and a Windrunner, and only the Windrunner got the boost.

It could be -- somehow -- that Kaladin is special, or maybe that Syl is.  After all, he's not just a Windrunner but, at the moment, the only Windrunner, since Syl was the only honorspren to come across.  Since Dalinar is the only Bondsmith, though, I'm a bit hesitant to adopt this interpretation.  I do think it's significant that Kaladin's the only Radiant we've seen get the boost, though.

 

I can't believe I didn't address Dalinar. I'll have to go edit this into the OP. 

Dalinar had spoken to both Kaladin and Shallan by the time he spoke his Oaths and had essentially been focused on doing exactly what his Oath was. He was already mentally adhering to that Oath regardless of how successful his efforts were. 

Still consistent with the idea that the light show is due to Kaladin's internal conflicts keeping him from progressing incrementally. 

[galendo]

Well, I'm pleased to have helped, even if mostly inadvertently.

But I realized that I didn't address your theory last time, so I'll do that now.  Basically, I'm a bit skeptical.  I'm not aware of any in-world reasons why it couldn't be true, but 

1) When Kaladin swears his second Oath ("I will protect those who cannot protect themselves"), he gets the boost.  But Kaladin's basically been protecting those who cannot protect themselves for like half the book at that point.  So honestly, this one seems a pretty minor step forward.  I'd think, if your theory were true, he wouldn't get the boost here.

2) When Lift saves Gawx, it seemed like a pretty big step forward.  We haven't seen her prior to that scene, so it's hard to tell how much progress is really being made here, but it seems like at least as much progress as the Kaladin one mentioned above.

3) The determination of who's making a big leap forward all at once seems rather fuzzy.  Maybe you think Kaladin's oath was a big leap forward and Lift's wasn't while I think the opposite.  In-world, who's making this determination?  The spren?  The Stormfather?  It seems...I dunno.  Not impossible, but a bit arbitrary.  I prefer to think that there's a less fuzzy explanation for the boost.

[Calderis he/him]

20 minutes ago, galendo said:

3) The determination of who's making a big leap forward all at once seems rather fuzzy.  Maybe you think Kaladin's oath was a big leap forward and Lift's wasn't while I think the opposite.  In-world, who's making this determination?  The spren?  The Stormfather?  It seems...I dunno.  Not impossible, but a bit arbitrary.  I prefer to think that there's a less fuzzy explanation for the boost.

The bond is with the Spren, so I think they'd be the one to judge. 

For the whole of your post, I understand that there's not much to this beyond my feelings, and that makes most of it very subject. Which is why I asked for feedback. Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

In both cases of Kaladin's Oaths, he had been conflicted either by his depression or his personal feelings, to the point of Syl's temporary death before the second oath. At the first Oath, there's a debate in his head between taking the bridge and fleeing, or helping Dalinar. The second oath is his split about Elhokar. In both instances, almost immediately before speaking the Oaths, Kaladin comes to a realization about what he must do and then rushes in and speaks the Oaths. Voila, lightshow ensues because Kaladin's bond has leapt from one benchmark to the next.

I would argue differently. Kaladin has been enacting the third oath prior to both killing Syl and saving Elhokar. Just like Lift, he has been toying as to whether or not he ought to protect people based on how he felt about them. The 4 on 1 duel was a prime example of Kaladin jumping in to protect he man he hates and despises merely because it was the right thing to do. Elhokar has not been Kaladin first tackle with the third oath, saving Adolin was. However, being thrown into prison stopped Kaladin's progression, but I would stil argue it has been in the coming for a while, just as it were for other knights.

This being said I have no idea why Kaladin's oaths feel so different, but Brandon did say there was a reason. So I'll look forward to find out about it.

[Calderis he/him]

23 minutes ago, maxal said:

Elhokar has not been Kaladin first tackle with the third oath, saving Adolin was.

I disagree. Kaladin never hated Adolin personally. Because of his interactions with Adolin, he was a convenient symbol of Kaladin's irrational hatred of Lighteyes. His thoughts about Adolin, and his upbringing, and his attitude are always things that fit neatly into his concocted stereotype of the spoiled lighteyes. It wasn't until after the duel that he started to view Adolin's action as belonging to him and not to a stereotype, and even then not until being scolded by Shallan. 

Furthermore, in the duel, he was not acting out of a need to protect Adolin because it was right. He was fulfilling his duty to Dalinar.

Through Moash, and Elhokar's own actions he did come, if not to hatred, but to be disgusted by Elhokar's as King. When Elhokar's childish behavior surfaced at the end of the duel, resulting in his imprisonment he did come to hate him. Once that lead to the knowledge that Elhokar was responsible for Roshone coming to Hearthstone and all the events afterwards, including Tien's death... 

All of this is secondary to the internal conflict that killed Syl. It was that conflict, not just holding back his advancement but actually degrading his oath.

He spent all of the first book protecting bridge four, at the cost of all else. It wasn't until his decision at the end to help Dalinar that he decided to protect those beyond who he chose, in line with the oath he spoke. 

 

[+Extesian he/him]

Yeah I agree with this Calderis. I think the difference between Kaladin and other surgebinders is that the others progressed towards it without significant setbacks, Kaladin also was generally progressing but had big moments, or stretches of time, where he almost went against the Oaths. Not because he's not as 'good' as the others but because his personality and the Windrunner oaths  make it very easy to break them. Dalinar, once on the path, never strayed from unifying. Lift could be selfish and distracted but never went directly against her oaths. Kaladin though, first he only cared about bridge 4, noone else, and almost lost Syl. Second he betrayed his duties and a person only because he thought that person was wrong for the job. He's been on a constant progression but with huge backslides.

I think it's because Kaladin almost loses the bond completely before suddenly regaining it, whereas others may gain it suddenly as well but were always on the right track. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. Kaladin never hated Adolin personally. Because of his interactions with Adolin, he was a convenient symbol of Kaladin's irrational hatred of Lighteyes. His thoughts about Adolin, and his upbringing, and his attitude are always things that fit neatly into his concocted stereotype of the spoiled lighteyes. It wasn't until after the duel that he started to view Adolin's action as belonging to him and not to a stereotype, and even then not until being scolded by Shallan. 

Furthermore, in the duel, he was not acting out of a need to protect Adolin because it was right. He was fulfilling his duty to Dalinar.

Through Moash, and Elhokar's own actions he did come, if not to hatred, but to be disgusted by Elhokar's as King. When Elhokar's childish behavior surfaced at the end of the duel, resulting in his imprisonment he did come to hate him. Once that lead to the knowledge that Elhokar was responsible for Roshone coming to Hearthstone and all the events afterwards, including Tien's death... 

All of this is secondary to the internal conflict that killed Syl. It was that conflict, not just holding back his advancement but actually degrading his oath.

He spent all of the first book protecting bridge four, at the cost of all else. It wasn't until his decision at the end to help Dalinar that he decided to protect those beyond who he chose, in line with the oath he spoke. 

 

And I disagree too  

Kaladin hated Adolin, he hated what he represented, he hated how he talked, how he dressed, how he behaved: he referred to him as a spoiled arrogant princeling and he certainly did not want to save him during this duel, but this isn't all of it. My thoughts are the third oath is just about anger, it is about feelings and not allowing those feelings to guide one's actions when it comes to protecting people. In shorts, as a Windrunner, Kaladin ought to protect people which needs it, whenever it is right no matter how he feels towards these people. Elhokar was a very strong example, Adolin a lesser one, but in both cases Kaladin was faced with a situation where he didn't want to protect nor to act, but ultimately chose to because it was the right thing to do. 

It does not matter if him jumping into the arena was to honor his words towards Dalinar: his words might be what made it right for him to act. What matters is Kaladin wouldn't readily do it, not for Adolin. Had it been one of this men inside this arena, his thought process would have been different. I also once argued one unsaid reason Kaladin did jump in was because Renarin was there too and he has a lot of sympathy for him, but the story doesn't say if this was a factor or not. I merely think it may be it was one, but it isn't said.

I do think saving Adolin was an early step towards the third oath. He could have said it, right here and there, but perhaps the example had not been strong enough, just as Lift knew she had to listen before it clicked within her she had to commit to it. Obviously, Elhokar was a much more cut out example for Kaladin, made to be more dramatic, more edgy, more complicated, but saving Adolin just as not protecting Moash were both within the same vein. I do think it was the same oath.

[StormblessDave]

Lol and I disagree with you maxal! Sure he disliked Adolin from the start,but it was never anything serious

Wor part 2 chapter 16

Spoiler

Adolin represented something,though.The privilege of the light eyes.He wasn't like Amaram or Sadeas,who brought out Kaladin's hatred.Men like Adolin just annoyed him,reminding him that in this world,some sipped wine and wore fancy clothing while others were made slaves almost on a whim.

Well that stops all arguements doesn't it?;)

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Lol and I disagree with you maxal! Sure he disliked Adolin from the start,but it was never anything serious

Wor part 2 chapter 16

  Reveal hidden contents

Adolin represented something,though.The privilege of the light eyes.He wasn't like Amaram or Sadeas,who brought out Kaladin's hatred.Men like Adolin just annoyed him,reminding him that in this world,some sipped wine and wore fancy clothing while others were made slaves almost on a whim.

Well that stops all arguements doesn't it?;)

Not necessarily...  

He doesn't hate Adolin has he hated Amaram nor Sadeas as he never did anything to harm him personally, this is a given, but he still does not like him. He hates him enough to want to fight him. I haven't re-read the book in a while, but it did sound like hate, though as deep nor strong as what he feels towards Amaram and Sadeas.

My point however is Adolin isn't someone Kaladin wants to protect, he isn't someone he wants to jump into the arena for, he isn't someone he chose to protect and his first instinct were to leave him there. I think it would be the same as the second oath except he does have those negative feelings towards Adolin which are personal while when he saved Dalinar's army, those people were strangers.

I'll have to think some more on it, but I always took the third oath could have happened at the 4 on 1 duel.

[IAreNelson]

While it's probably true that this related to Kaladin, I interpreted the WOB a little differently. I took it to mean that not all the orders have flashy oath moments, not that not every surgebinder has a flashy oath moment.

I think that windrunners have flashy moments more than lightweavers or bondsmiths. As windrunners have leadership as part of their divine attribute I see the flashy moment as a way to inspire those around you. It may also relate to the fact that windrunner squires are more numerous and powerful so the flashy moment may occur to signify to the squires that they are also receiving a power boost.

This means that a few of the other orders would have these flashy moments as well. We just don't know which other orders had squires. I would guess that stonewards do.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Well at the very least, realmatically, I think it's a sudden jump into being closer to the spiritual/cognitive realms, allowing a large amount of investiture to flow in. 

[Calderis he/him]

15 minutes ago, The Flash said:

Well at the very least, realmatically, I think it's a sudden jump into being closer to the spiritual/cognitive realms, allowing a large amount of investiture to flow in. 

Pretty succinctly sums up my thoughts. At least on the visual part if not the reason behind it. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata he/him]

11 hours ago, The Flash said:

Well at the very least, realmatically, I think it's a sudden jump into being closer to the spiritual/cognitive realms, allowing a large amount of investiture to flow in. 

 I thought the same but Soon I realized this is not the case. The KR didn't tap from the others Realms and neither their own level of Investiture changes as the Spren integrated in their Souls remain the same.

Sure It's possible the Spren itself could tap from other Realms exploiting the Bond's improvement...but It's High speculative and much more isn't showed in other critical istances.

It's also possibile the (relative) huge flow of Investiture is linked to Syl's resurrection.

I can't check in the books at the moment but I don't remember a proper similar boost with the second Oath.

[Calderis he/him]

29 minutes ago, Yata said:

I can't check in the books at the moment but I don't remember a proper similar boost with the second Oath.

Quote

A crack shook the air, like an enormous clap of thunder, though the sky was completely clear. Teft stumbled back—having just set the bridge in place—and found himself gaping with the rest of Bridge Four. Kaladin exploded with energy. A burst of whiteness washed out from him, a wave of white smoke. Stormlight. The force of it slammed into the first rank of Parshendi, tossing them backward, and Teft had to hold his hand up against the vibrancy of the light.

“Something just changed,” Moash whispered, hand up. “Something important.”

Kaladin raised his spear. The powerful light began to subside, retreating. A more subdued glow began to steam off his body. Radiant, like smoke from an ethereal fire.

It was stronger with the third oath, I believe from Syl's resurrection as well, but it happened with the second as well. 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Calderis

[SnopyDogy]

I think you guys are over complicating this, the answer is simple:

 

Syl just like showing off.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, SnopyDogy said:

I think you guys are over complicating this, the answer is simple:

 

Syl just like showing off.

Over complication is kind of how things work here. 

To quote @Oversleep while he was talking to Brandon "we do not concern ourselves with common uses" 

[+Extesian he/him]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Over complication is kind of how things work here. 

To quote @Oversleep while he was talking to Brandon "we do not concern ourselves with common uses" 

Totally adding it to the list.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Extesian

[Yata he/him]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

It was stronger with the third oath, I believe from Syl's resurrection as well, but it happened with the second as well. 

Again I have not the books here. But I remember that Kal in that istance tapped Stormlight from Listeners' beard-gems.

Maybe his Stormlight drawning was improved by the Oath allowing him to access farther Stormlight. So he passed to be uncapable to access It to a suddenly good access while He was moving to Attack them

[retrorocket1]

the beard gems thing happened after the explosion of power.

[Calderis he/him]

55 minutes ago, retrorocket1 said:

the beard gems thing happened after the explosion of power.

Having just quoted that from the ebook yesterday, it was just before, while he was leaping the Chasm.

That said, the explosion is described as a wave of stormlight itself coming from Kaladin, which doesn't seem to fit with anything we've seen from his surges so far, so I still think it's not a normal occurance and directly related to his oddly strong Oaths.