Mist on Shardblades

[Jaconis]

Do we have any explanation as to why shardblades are summoned with moisture dripping from them? Or why, when a lot of Stormlight is used or condensed, frost forms?

An idea came to me while rereading WoK, though someone with a better understanding of realmatic theory might be able refute this easily. Does this condensation have to do with the nature of Shadesmar, that land in the physical is sea there? Does a shardblade still drip with moisture when summoned on a boat for instance?

Another thought, do living shardblades still have moisture when summoned? If not I could see the reasoning that they are not coming from the Cognitive Realm any longer, as they have transitioned. 

[Pagerunner]

Good questions. I'll put it on my list of things to keep an eye out for when I eventually do a detailed reread, whether or not living Shardblades dew up.

Here's a crazy thought for you, though: Braize is farther away from the sun, and colder, than Roshar. Could Shardblades and Stormlight be drawing their power from splinters and Shards on Braize?

[Tsidqiyah]

I always thought that we were just seeing the natural effect of a process that draws in the surrounding natural heat as a side effect of working. IE an endothermic reaction. I have felt that this is similar to how Color is consumed during awakening.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Tsidqiyah

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Jaconis said:

Another thought, do living shardblades still have moisture when summoned? If not I could see the reasoning that they are not coming from the Cognitive Realm any longer, as they have transitioned. 

I'm of the opinion that the spren are still always in the cognitive realm except when they're manifested as shardblades. Bonding to a KR allows them to approach the physical realm, just like how Lift is closer to the cognitive realm, but they are still cognitive entities in the cognitive realm.

[Kered]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm of the opinion that the spren are still always in the cognitive realm except when they're manifested as shardblades. Bonding to a KR allows them to approach the physical realm, just like how Lift is closer to the cognitive realm, but they are still cognitive entities in the cognitive realm.

This is what I thought.

And even with dead shardblades, they're still technically spren, just without a conscious. So I don't feel that the moisture thing would change with a live one. 

Update: Just did a quick check of when Kaladin summoned Syl as a shardblade for the first time, and these were the words used. "Wind blew in the opening in the wall, and Syl's ribbon of light became mist, a form she often took. Sliver mist, which grew larger, coalesced before Kaladin, extending into his hand. 

Glowing, brilliant, a Shardblade emerged from the mist, vivid blue light shinning from swirling patterns along its length"

Edited January 21, 2017 by KereDerek

[stickstickstick]

I always thought it was a bit simpler. Shardblades form a solid 6ft blade from nothing. Creating a solid from a reaction like that (in our world) requires energy. Basically the summoning of a blade sucks energy from the area immediately around it. In Roshar (a storm laden and perpetually wet world where we can assume a high level of humidity) the act of summoning a blade acts a lot like an AgN reaction. Precipitation is a byproduct. When the air cools, the moisture in the air coalesces (in simpleish terms). It also sounds good on page.

This sort of action/reaction is also witnessed on the chapter where Adolin observes the ardents soulcasting. A whoosh of air inwards. Brandon has a propensity for looking towards the laws of Physics and using them like silly string (when convenient)

Edited January 21, 2017 by stickstickstick

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, stickstickstick said:

I always thought it was a bit simpler. Shardblades form a solid 6ft blade from nothing. Creating a solid from a reaction like that (in our world) requires energy. Basically the summoning of a blade sucks energy from the area immediately around it. In Roshar (a storm laden and perpetually wet world where we can assume a high level of humidity) the act of summoning a blade acts a lot like an AgN reaction. Precipitation is a byproduct. When the air cools, the moisture in the air coalesces (in simpleish terms). It also sounds good on page.

The way I see it is that the matter to create the sprenblades is not being formed from surrounding energy, but rather from the physical manifestation of the spren's investiture into a metal. So there isn't really a need to draw energy from the air. Also, looking at the actual math, if all the energy was from the air, it would take around of 5E14 m^3* of air. Therefore, since it has to be pulling most of the source of the matter from somewhere other than the ambient energy, it would follow that it would pull all of it.

Nonetheless, I do agree that the mist is a result of the metal forming. I guess that it has to do with the transition of investiture from the cognitive to the physical.

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Same as how atium is the physical crystallization of a portion of Ruin's power (investiture), sprenblades are the the physical crystallization of a spren's investiture.

*Calculations were performed for dry air at around 21 C. Since higher humidity air would have a greater heat capacity, the actual amount would probably be a bit lower, though it wouldn't change by more than a magniture. Also was assumed that the mass of a shardblade is around 2 kg. Probably a bit different, but the actual mass wouldn't change the amount by more than one magnitude. 

[stickstickstick]

Interesting idea Spool.

As an aside, where did you find the math that it would require 500 billion cubic metres of air to get energy to generate water on an object? I point you to the last beer I had. Took it out of its case and it had moisture condensing on it.

In terms of Roshar, Please look at the chapter where Adolin witnesses soulcasting (air into stone). The air rushes in. because soulcasting can change the density of a thing. That require energy, like any reaction. This energy comes from the stone used, but my theory is that it also comes from the surounding environment, i.e. the gem allows connection to the cognitive realm, while the energy for physical transformation exists in the physical realm.

I like your spoiler theory, but I'd like to counter with one of my own. I'll link as soon as typed up. Basically based on the Shin idea of Stones Unhallowed.

[Spoolofwhool]

15 hours ago, stickstickstick said:

Interesting idea Spool.

As an aside, where did you find the math that it would require 500 billion cubic metres of air to get energy to generate water on an object? I point you to the last beer I had. Took it out of its case and it had moisture condensing on it.

No, that's the calculation for the volume of air required to create a Shardblade, as you proposed. The amount of energy, in terms of volume of air, with an assumed temperature, heat capacity and mass of Shardblade. 

The soulcasting example doesn't work since we know the energy to induce the transformation is coming from stormlight in the gems, so there's no need for it to draw energy from the ambient temperature. A similar soulcasting into metal with Shardblade summoning using ambient temperature likely isn't occurring since no one ever observes an inward suction when the blade appears, one which would be obvious due to the mist.

Edit: Also, 500 billion is 5 E 11, which is three magnitudes lower than what I calculated.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah I agree creating a blade from heat energy as an energy-matter conversion would take way too much energy.

But we know the blade is formed from the spren, Cognitive "matter" or whatever they have to Physical matter... I can totally believe that heat energy is drawn from the environment as an endothermic reaction, but just to fuel the Cognitive-Physical transition, not to actually create matter.

Edited January 24, 2017 by cometaryorbit
transition is Cognitive to Physical, not to Spiritual.

[Spoolofwhool]

35 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah I agree creating a blade from heat energy as an energy-matter conversion would take way too much energy.

But we know the blade is formed from the spren, Cognitive "matter" or whatever they have to Physical matter... I can totally believe that heat energy is drawn from the environment as an endothermic reaction, but just to fuel the Cognitive-Spiritual transition, not to actually create matter.

Yeah, my opinion it's a result of the transition. Did you mean Cognitive-Physical transition at the end though, or is there something more with Cognitive-Spiritual that you think is going on?

[Szmit]

Don't forget that using metal in allomancy makes heat. It's not exactly the same,  but kind of similar.

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Szmit said:

Spoiler

Don't forget that using metal in allomancy makes heat. It's not exactly the same,  but kind of similar.

 

Spoilers, and where has that been stated?

Edited January 23, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[cometaryorbit]

On 1/22/2017 at 8:42 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Yeah, my opinion it's a result of the transition. Did you mean Cognitive-Physical transition at the end though, or is there something more with Cognitive-Spiritual that you think is going on?

Physical, yeah sorry. Edited.

 

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Spoilers, and where has that been stated?

Spoiler

It's always described as a warm sensation. Could be more like spicy 'heat' than actual thermal energy release though.

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by cometaryorbit
spelling

[+hwiles]

My understanding is that the condensation on freshly summoned shardblades is water.  I haven't really heard anyone argue otherwise and I feel like it would've been mentioned by someone at some point in the story if the mist was composed of some other type of matter. (mercury?)

It would seem silly and unnecessary for that water to be getting summoned along with the blade from wherever blades exist when they aren't in use.  More likely it is being pulled from the ambient air as a result of some aspect of the summoning.

I think it's safe to assume that when a blade is summoned it isn't being created from the surrounding air and matter, but rather, it is displacing them, otherwise there would be big gusts of wind every time a blade was summoned due to the law of conservation of mass, which Sanderson normally makes a good effort to obey when possible.  I don't have all the answers, but here's my proposed explanation that I invite you to love or hate at your own discretion:

• The blade get's summoned into the physical realm, more or less all at once, from somewhere (doesn't matter where or how); basically, one "instant" it isn't there, the next "instant" it is.  This would only cause a minor disturbance of air currents that could reasonably be overlooked in the vast majority of cases
• A volume of air equal to the volume of the blade is suddenly displaced, meaning it is shoved away very rapidly, IE: it is pressurized
• Pressurized air can't hold water as well as air at atmospheric pressure
• Water vapor condenses out of the pressurized air onto the surface of the newly summoned blade (this process occurs very rapidly)
• The air displaced by the blade rapidly returns to atmospheric pressure as it spreads out
• The blade feels cold because (pick one) either, 1) metal objects often feel colder than the stuff around them, if you don't believe me go touch a doorknob. or 2) through an unknown mechanism working to preserve conservation of energy, which Sanderson likes to obey when possible, the kinetic energy delivered to the air displaced by the blade is equal to the thermal energy lost by the water vapor that condenses onto the blade.

(For those who care, I'm assuming these "instantaneous" events actually occur on the timescale of micro seconds; fast enough to appear basically instantaneous but, off the top of my head, not fast enough to have any horrible consequences in terms of Cosmere physics.)

The first major problem with this proposed explanation that I'm aware of is that, if a Radiant was trapped inside a sealed container of water (or any incompressible fluid) and they summoned their blade to cut their way to safety, the resulting pressure change would kill them unless the container was fantastically massive (and it still might even then).  Secondly, I've assumed the air displaced by the blade is pressurized slowly enough to not cause any weird explosions or combustion phenomena, but I haven't actually checked that this works with my assumed timescale since it's all speculative anyway.

TLDR;

1. If you summoned a shardblade in the desert or in space, there probably wouldn't be very much mist or dew or whatever.  Probably none even.

2. Don't summon a shardblade if you're trapped inside a tank of water, IE: if you're in a magician's act (better safe than sorry) 

[Spoolofwhool]

@hwiles 

That explains the condensation, but mist is also occurring when a blade is materialized, unless the release due to pressured air would cause that as well?

[+hwiles]

6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

@hwiles 

That explains the condensation, but mist is also occurring when a blade is materialized, unless the release due to pressured air would cause that as well?

As I understand it, the mist would also basically be caused by the pressure change, yes.  If you wanted to get really knitpicky you could argue that the "mist" is the water vapor that was forced out of the compressed air (thus turning it into liquid water) and carried away due to the air's momentum instead of left to pool on the blade.  The central theme of my proposal is that mist is simply composed of water vapor already present in the air and is described for the purposes of flavor and world building.  For now, I think we're safe in assuming that the mist, as well as the specific mechanics governing how and why it condenses on shardblades, are relatively inconsequential and unrelated to any particular plot, theme, or character arc.  It's like asking, "why do Parshendi have red and black spots when their environment is neither black nor red?" you're probably not going to ever get a real answer, it's just an unintrusive detail that 1) improves flavor and world building, and 2) helps readers visualize scenes.

I give my previous explanation not in hopes of identifying the real reason mist appears around shardblades, but rather, in hopes of satisfying those who possess an exceptional thirst for proof of plausibility and internal consistency.

[Szmit]

On 23.01.2017 at 5:03 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Spoilers, and where has that been stated?

In the first chapter of the first book as far as I remember, stated by main character in his thoughts.

I don't really think that could classify as a spoiler.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Szmit said:

In the first chapter of the first book as far as I remember, stated by main character in his thoughts.

I don't really think that could classify as a spoiler.

I'll have to check, but I think it's more a feeling of the Investiture flowing rather than an actual temperature shift.

Also yes, not really a spoiler, but the the rule exist and it's more about habit. If you get in the habit of casually talk about minor things in the open, then it's more likely you let something major slip than if you're in the habit of keeping everything from another book under spoilers. 

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, Szmit said:

I don't really think that could classify as a spoiler.

It's only really a spoiler in that it's a Mistborn thing in the Stormlight forum. As they said, habits.

[Szmit]

11 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'll have to check, but I think it's more a feeling of the Investiture flowing rather than an actual temperature shift.

Also yes, not really a spoiler, but the the rule exist and it's more about habit. If you get in the habit of casually talk about minor things in the open, then it's more likely you let something major slip than if you're in the habit of keeping everything from another book under spoilers. 

Point taken