Rosharan Sybology

[Maximus]

I have started writing down my thoughts on Rosharan magic, shards, religion, history, gods and Many Other Things. Starting with an analysis of the front and back cover charts.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xQ81QKQWizWdHT58eS5L96Xxf9tC6-vCUSwUwuGHKeE/edit?usp=sharing

 

Feel free to read and comment here. Constructive criticism and discussion will help the process along. 

[Argent]

all Radiant orders do not seem to be equal. Windrunners and Edgedancers(?) share a connection on the right while Elsecallers(?) and ? share one on the left. These are the only cases where orders share a connection, but not a surge

 

 

Not true in my opinion. The nexus in the center can be seen as connecting all Orders.

 

We have so far identified 3(?) types of magic on Roshar. Soulcasting, Surgebinding, and Voidbinding.

 

 

Why do you make Soulcasting its own magic (sub-)system? We know it's just a surge, albeit one governed by more complex rules than any of the others we have seen in practice so far. I am far more inclined to consider fabrials - I like the term Sprenbinding - to be the third system. Surgebinding of Honor, Voidbinding of Odium, Sprenbinding of Cultivation. 

[cem]

Yeah, the Soulcasting-Surgebinding division is a pretty common mistake. Either each of the Windrunner abilities and Soulcasting are their separate magic systems or they are all subsets of Surgebinding. It doesn't make sense to categorize Soulcasting separate from Surgebinding. Same goes for Lightweaving and other abilities we're going to see.

[marianmi]

The 4 corners do have 1 extra connection. Don't know if it means anything though.

I almost said that maybe the 4 are using honorspren, but Shallan is in there and she has a cryptic.

 

How about if there are 4 base types of spren? windrunner being 100% honorspren, edgedancer 100% cultivation, shallan's 100% cryptic, and last one is renarin's spren (let's hope that's not 100% odiumspren lol)

 

With the rest being "mixed" spren... 

 

 

PS: this would make Renarin a Stonewarden.

[Windrunner]

Why do you make Soulcasting its own magic (sub-)system? We know it's just a surge, albeit one governed by more complex rules than any of the others we have seen in practice so far. I am far more inclined to consider fabrials - I like the term Sprenbinding - to be the third system. Surgebinding of Honor, Voidbinding of Odium, Sprenbinding of Cultivation. 

 

More and more lately I've been seeing Surgebinding as less of Honor's system, and more of a balance magic system, as it has to do with spren that are of both Honor and Cultivation. It certainly makes sense that the natural magic systems involving spren bonds would be Cultivation, but assuming that Surgbinding is a balance system (which is not by any means guaranteed) then Honor would probably have his own system too.

[Argent]

I actually considered that as I was typing my reply. Was hoping the implication would go unnoticed long enough for me to think about it and propose something more thought-out...

[marianmi]

Why is it assumed that Thunderclasts are evil creatures? 

Just because heralds killed some?

Let's not forget the fight against the koloss, and they were not evil..

 

Did anyone had the theory that thunderclasts can be summoned by a surgebinder (i.e. stonewarden)?

And the enemy is another army of surgebinders?

 

Why else would the dragonswasps be so prized and useful? If you were fighting just thunderclasts?

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[hoser]

 

 

... the third system. Surgebinding of Honor, Voidbinding of Odium, Sprenbinding of Cultivation. 

 

When the spren associated with the Reshi greatshell do magic as when they cushioned Rysn's fall, which system is that?

The spren softened your fall. From that height... Child, what were you thinking?

 

When the aimians, the parshendi or the larkin do magical things, which system are they using?

 

Why is it assumed that Thunderclasts are evil creatures? 

Just because heralds killed some?

Let's not forget the fight against the koloss, and they were not evil..

 

Did anyone had the theory that thunderclasts can be summoned by a surgebinder (i.e. stonewarden)?

And the enemy is another army of surgebinders?

 

Why else would the dragonswasps be so prized and useful? If you were fighting just thunderclasts?

From the prelude, Dalinar's Nohadon vision, Dalinar's purelake vision and Szeth's understanding of history, thunderclasts seem to be fighting against the heralds, the humans and the Radiants in the desolations.  They seem to be summoned/animated/formed from a spren by the opposition to humanity, presumably working for Odium. 

 

So they can only be considered evil if you consider desolations and Odium evil. 

 

People here may not have read Mistborn yet, so it is conventional to enclose references to non-Stormlight Archive works in spoiler tags, to keep from ruining their later discovery. 

 

Mistborn spoiler:

The koloss were more of ruin than preservation (I think), and Shardic intent is more complex than good/evil

.  

 

Since surgebinders (from what I've seen so far) are not able to create thunderclasts, I don't see how a competing army of surgebinders could create them.  I think they are created by a different magic system than surgebinding. 

 

I don't think we know that Desolations are exclusively thunderclasts, nor do we know why dragonwasps are so prized.  Nor do I understand why you link them. 

[Maximus]

When the spren associated with the Reshi greatshell do magic as when they cushioned Rysn's fall, which system is that?

 

When the aimians, the parshendi or the larkin do magical things, which system are they using?

 

These are excellent questions which I intend to address. I have some thoughts, just haven't written them out yet.

[Maximus]

 

Not true in my opinion. The nexus in the center can be seen as connecting all Orders.

 

That is certainly a valid interpretation. However I do not think I agree. If it were so, there would be no need for any other connections between the orders. This is assuming the connections have a purpose. I don't think we know what it would be.

 

 

 

Why do you make Soulcasting its own magic (sub-)system? We know it's just a surge, albeit one governed by more complex rules than any of the others we have seen in practice so far. I am far more inclined to consider fabrials - I like the term Sprenbinding - to be the third system. Surgebinding of Honor, Voidbinding of Odium, Sprenbinding of Cultivation. 

 

Well, I noted they were part of the same chart, which I take to mean part of the same system. There is something unique about soulcasting though. Fabrials for soulcasting survived in relatively large numbers into the current era. I am not aware of this being the case for any other radiant powers. Do we know of any other ancient fabrials that are in use?

[hoser]

That ...

Well, I noted they were part of the same chart, which I take to mean part of the same system. There is something unique about soulcasting though. Fabrials for soulcasting survived in relatively large numbers into the current era. I am not aware of this being the case for any other radiant powers. Do we know of any other ancient fabrials that are in use?

Apparently the Radiants were the only ones with fabrials before the Recreance.  The easy guess is that the fabrials that they passed on (blades, armor, soulcasters) are the ones we have now. 

There are hints that there were fabrials that mimicked the surges such as the Regrowth fabrial from the Starfalls vision and the Oathgates.  Presumably the other Radiant-era fabrials were destroyed or placed somewhere inaccessible (up to now). 

 

[marianmi]

Since surgebinders (from what I've seen so far) are not able to create thunderclasts, I don't see how a competing army of surgebinders could create them.  I think they are created by a different magic system than surgebinding. 

 

I don't think we know that Desolations are exclusively thunderclasts, nor do we know why dragonwasps are so prized.  Nor do I understand why you link them. 

 

If we haven't seen KR creating thunderclasts, it does not mean they cannot. We haven't seen "voidbringers" lashing, it does not mean they cannot.

 

Less frequently, he passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free of the stone to join the fray.

 

It does not say here that the enemy was using them exclusively.

 

I linked the dragonwasps because they would be VERY important in a war with surgebinders on both sides.

[hoser]

If we haven't seen KR creating thunderclasts, it does not mean they cannot. We haven't seen "voidbringers" lashing, it does not mean they cannot.

 

It does not say here that the enemy was using them exclusively.

 

I linked the dragonwasps because they would be VERY important in a war with surgebinders on both sides.

I'm sorry.  I misunderstood your original post.  I thought you were asking about the supporting evidence for some prevailing assumptions, not looking for definitive statements about what is possible. 

 

If you have a theory that Odium (do you associate Odium with "the enemy"?) had armies of surgebinders with similar powers to the Radiants and that both sides fought with more or less similar methods, that's fine.  I certainly can't prove otherwise. 

 

I personally like (but can't prove)the idea of Odium having a system wherein his Nazgul (herald counterparts, unmade), who may be somewhat incorporeal, corrupt/possess and create monsters.  I see the part of warfare of a desolation as asymmetric, with heroes fighting elemental monsters. 

 

If Radiants could animate stone monsters, it would probably be better to have stone monsters going against stone monsters rather than costing human (and heraldic) lives. I don't see any textual support for this model of warfare.  We have only seen isolated thunderclasts. Thematically, I see the Radiant system fitting for Honor, whereas corrupting spren and animating stone fits my model for how Odium would work. 

 

Given that we don't even know everything that larkin can do, their value hardly constitutes proof that Desolations involved competing armies of surgebinders using similar methods.  There are other possible reasons for their value. 

[marianmi]

However, the "Radiant" system does not work only with Honor, as you said. I think there is sufficient proof that it works with Cultivation as well, and probably Adonalsium too (if cryptics are indeed Adonalsium spren).

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[hoser]

However, the "Radiant" system does not work only with Honor, as you said. I think there is sufficient proof that it works with Cultivation as well, and probably Adonalsium too (if cryptics are indeed Adonalsium spren).

Of course.  It could be an Honor-Cultivation or Honor-Cultivation-Adonalsium system.  I really don't know.  The main point was that I see the desolations being asymmetric, pitting people against Odium's elemental monsters. But, really, I know nothing .