Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) So as not to hijack the other thread any more, I moved the debate here. Here is the page with the previous debates. Which order do you think Dalinar is in? Bondsmiths, Stonewards, or something else entirely? Edited October 26, 2013 by Mailliw73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Double post, but this is my actual response to the argument. Let's look at all potential KRs - they all somehow show the traits, but are in conflict about it. Shallan has issues with telling the truth. (she lies/does not want to tell the truth) Kalladin has issues with protecting/leading due to Tien (he does not want to protect/lead) Lift obviously had issues with caring/remembering (talking to Darkness: "I tried to be like you" - only after she stopped being like Darkness would she have been able to get Wyndle) All potential KRs are defined by their conflict with their KR attributes. They do not start with these traits, they acquire/perfection/come to live with them. What is Dalinar in conflict with? He's in conflict with his beliefs about the Almighty because of his visions (pious). He is in conflict with guiding. He wants to give up his house's leadership. He does not want to guide anymore. He does not trust himself. He's been a highprice for a long time, but not truly "guiding". He's been complacent with things on the shattered plains. Now, he wants to guide. He wants to unite them. Now, he is attracting the spren. He is in conflict with being dependable. He doesn't think people should depend on him, he's not sure that he can depend on himself, the visions are really messing him up. He is also not immediately resourceful, as shown with his late attempt to join with Sadeas(that backstabber), but realizes what his best option is, eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 good call, sorry I either started or contributed heavily to the hijacking Truth is he fits both of these well and could quite reasonably fall into several others (windrunner) which we have ruled out with less then certain reasoning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Personally, I think he's going to be Order 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Yes, you can equally argue about both, I don't think there are enough strong arguments for any. But it does feel to me #10 is tiny bit closer. His struggle is with leadership/guiding more than "being dependable". When he gives his word, there is no double he will keep it. He is dependable. I don't see this as his primary struggle. I also believe he might have used a bit of Pressure vs the chasmfiend. Now, it's equally possible that he will not be KR He will recreate/guide KRs but not be one himself - Nohadon was not a KR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 With the chasmfiend, I think it's very possible he used the "surface tension" or rigidity surge or possibly the unknown one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I also thought of surface tension initially, but I can't see how that's possible - the only think he could have used it on would have been his armour, but you cannot use the surge on it cause it's already invested. So it's very improbable that it was surface tension. It was either pressure or the unknown one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Unless, as it's not actually surface tension exactly, I had this idea that maybe he used it on the air right in between his armor and the claw. I don't know if that's possible, but I don't see why not. It is kind of a weird idea, but that's the only way I see him using surface tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I don't think Dalinar will be a Radiant himself. To Surgebind, you need to have attacted a spren. The bonding process seems to happen over a year (or more), so if Dalinar was Surgebinding against the chasmfiend, we should have seen signs he had attracted a spren by the end of the book. We did not. I suspect he's more like Nohadon, who himself was not a Surgebinder. (I think.) Edited October 24, 2013 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Are you sure you have to have a spren? Szeth doesn't, unless of course, there's that theory that he uses voidbinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Unless, as it's not actually surface tension exactly, I had this idea that maybe he used it on the air right in between his armor and the claw. I don't know if that's possible, but I don't see why not. It is kind of a weird idea, but that's the only way I see him using surface tension. In the example BS gave, it was used on an object, not on air. So I highly doubt what you are saying. Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I don't think Dalinar will be a Radiant himself. To Surgebind, you need to have attacted a spren. The bonding process seems to happen over a year (or more), so if Dalinar was Surgebinding against the chasmfiend, we should have seen signs he had attracted a spren by the end of the book. We did not. I suspect he's more like Nohadon, who himself was not a Surgebinder. You are not alone, I keep this as an open possibility. Also, Dalinar might die as soon as book 3, and he would be easier to kill if he were not KR I totally agree with your last statement, but not the first - given his resolve at the end of the book, he might just started attracting a spren. Lift got her spren suddenly/she was "assigned" a spren, not over a year or more, though she has been slow in developing the bond since she thinks Wyndle is a voidbringer. So you can have a spren "assigned" instead of "attracting" one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 In the example BS gave, it was used on an object, not on air. So I highly doubt what you are saying. You are not alone, I keep this as an open possibility. Also, Dalinar might die as soon as book 3, and he would be easier to kill if he were not KR I totally agree with your last statement, but not the first - given his resolve at the end of the book, he might just started attracting a spren. Lift got her spren suddenly/she was "assigned" a spren, not over a year or more, though she has been slow in developing the bond since she thinks Wyndle is a voidbringer. So you can have a spren "assigned" instead of "attracting" one. Lift was 'assigned' a spren, but I don't think she was chosen randomly. She very clearly displays the traits of her Order. The bond also took weeks to come into effect, as she notes at one point that Wyndle didn't started speaking for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Yes, and what I'm saying is that I can argue Dalinar started displaying the traits at the end of TWoK and by the time Jasnah gets to the shattered plains, Dalinar might have a bond (either with a fully discerning spren, or one that is not fully "awake"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I know the air theory is very flimsy and there's no real evidence, I just think that it *might be possible. I'm not even completely convinced myself, but I like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I know the air theory is very flimsy and there's no real evidence, I just think that it *might be possible. I'm not even completely convinced myself, but I like the idea. If a KR could do that to air, then he could do that to the air around somebody's head, suffocating them... Or he could start walking on air .... or he could create invisible air swords and kill you at whatever distance ... or create many small knifes and spread them around him, killing everyone that has surrounded him ... It's just too... weird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 That seems different than the actual surge, but I guess my idea is too. it's also very possible the last surge was used too. Argent has said in a couple places he believes it to be strength. I'm not sure I completely agree, but it could work if you can strengthen other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Surface tension can strengthen "things" - but I can't see what Dalinar could have strengthen. Surges don't work on Plate. That's why I believe air was involved - and thus pressure somehow. Btw, how is pressure used by the windrunners? Seems to me that all 3 lashes are pure gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 He could have strengthened his arm, if that is the surge, which I'm not entirely convinced of yet. A full lashing uses pressure. It pressurizes two items together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 His arm was in armour, thus immune to surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I am not convinced Dalinar used any surgebinding on the Chasmfiend. I do not belive Dalinar has yet attracted a spren due to him carrying a shardblade (we know Syl's reaction was negative toward's it). Now he has given it up, I think he will attract one pretty quickly. As for his order, I think it could be either he has displayed the attributes for both Stonewards (Resolute / Builder) and Ishars order (Pious / Guiding). I think I tend more towards Ishar's order: Pious - Much of Dalinar's story was about his conflict in accepting the visions and needing to follow what they show. Guiding - The other major point for Dalinar is his need to det an example to the other Alethi and guide them back to the codes of honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrien Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Let's look at all potential KRs - they all somehow show the traits, but are in conflict about it. Shallan has issues with telling the truth. (she lies/does not want to tell the truth) Kalladin has issues with protecting/leading due to Tien (he does not want to protect/lead) Lift obviously had issues with caring/remembering (talking to Darkness: "I tried to be like you" - only after she stopped being like Darkness would she have been able to get Wyndle) All potential KRs are defined by their conflict with their KR attributes. They do not start with these traits, they acquire/perfection/come to live with them. What is Dalinar in conflict with? He's in conflict with his beliefs about the Almighty because of his visions (pious). He is in conflict with guiding. He wants to give up his house's leadership. He does not want to guide anymore. He does not trust himself. He's been a highprice for a long time, but not truly "guiding". He's been complacent with things on the shattered plains. Now, he wants to guide. He wants to unite them. Now, he is attracting the spren. I like the idea of conflict with their KR attributes however I don't think Pious/Guiding fits Dalinar. Kaladin is a good leader, and was trained to protect/heal people from a young age. Those attributes are his without fault, his conflict came when he started to doubt himself and his ability to lead/protect. Shallan issues with telling the truth are also mostly a recent thing from my impression, a forced secrecy as a result of the magnitude of her secrets. Even her tendency for quick quips could be taken as part of her honest nature, she absolutely must speak her mind even when it might get her in trouble. We don't know that much about Lift yet however that line "I tried to be like you"; to me implies a similar story. She tried to be like him, to be uncaring, to forget her past. However she couldn't because that's not her. Dalinar whilst having conflict with Pious/Guiding throughout the first book doesn't really fall into the same hole as Kaladin and Co. for the simple fact that his not good at these things. It says somewhere in the book (didn't have time to find it sorry) that he never viewed himself as particularly close to god, nor has he shown himself to be good at guiding men to follow his example. Don't get me wrong he certainly tries to be more pious and to guide others down the right path (The Codes) throughout the first book however he doesn't really have much success with this. Yes his soldiers and indeed some of those in other war-camps look up to him as the perfect image of Light-eyed Nobility; however his soldiers follow him and his example because that's their lord's orders. The other highprinces however, are all entirely indifferent to his leading by example, taking it for weakness. Indeed his revelation at the end of the book takes him completely away from his attempts at piety and guiding, he makes it quite clear that he no longer cares for the slowly guiding others to what is right. His attempts at Piety/Guiding throughout the first book were his conflict in my opinion, and now that his past them we might be able to see true nature. 'I was trying to be Nohadon the peacemaker. But I'm not. I'm the Blackthorn, a general and a warlord. I have no talent for backroom politicking, but I am very good at training troops. Starting tomorrow, every man in each of these camps will be mine. As far as I am concerned they're all raw recruits. Even the highprinces.' My picks for his order from Herald attributes are: 1. Just/Confident (Skybreakers) 2. Dependable/Resourceful (Stonewardens) 3. Resolute/Builder (??) Confidence, Dependability and Resolute are similar attributes, that could all be applied to Kholin and his internal conflict in the last book. The visions were making him doubt himself, ruining his self-confidence, his and others perception of whether he was dependable and his resolution to the war effort and his position as head of house Kholin. Of the other three we have plenty examples throughout the book of his commitment to justice; in his distaste for Sadeas's use of bridgemen, his desire for true justice against the Parshendi not just wanton slaughter in retaliation for actions they don't understand, and his big finale with Sadeas over a painted justice glyph (maybe a bit heavy handed there). Resourceful, he takes care to preserve his forces, putting shardbearers at the front and using Chull bridges to minimize loses and is willing to use all that is made available to him: attempts at constructing lighter maned bridges for the approach, and his treatment of Kaladin. Builder, well he 'built' a country with his brother and his good at training armies however that might be stretching the definition of builder, there is a reason its third pick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I don't see as you the nature of their conflict. I see kaladin thinking that protecting means taking care of his own. Then he accepts that protecting is not just about his team, and is ok if they die for a greater good. So in effect, initially he had a wrong idea about protecting/leading. Similarly, Dalinar had a wrong idea about guiding. Guiding is not just trying to convince the other you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrien Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) Hmm I guess it depends on how you chose to interpret 'Guiding', a guide leads you through and around danger however he isn't your master and has no say over your actions but that you allow him. Dalinar at the end of the first book isn't really conforming with this definition for guide, his taking the reigns and giving orders. However a guide also isn't going to let his charges wander off into danger, you are right it's not just about leading by example; forcing the correct path, the safe path, could very well fit into the scope of a guide. I can't help but see guide as more of a supportive attribute, an adviser not a leader and not a "general and a warlord" as Dalinar proclaims himself. Though put it all together and it does fit very well with his personal oath to never take command or try for the throne, a guide to his nephew at least regardless of his role to the rest. Edited October 25, 2013 by Ethrien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted October 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) My gut says Stoneward, but I can also see Skybreaker now. That does fit him quite well. I would rearrange Ethrien's list for myself. 1. Stoneward 2. Dustbringer 3. Skybreaker 4. ???? #8(possibly Bondsmith) 5. ???? #10(probably Bondsmith) Edited October 25, 2013 by Mailliw73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Skybreaker? That's even more crazy than wind runner Do you see dalinar lashing and flying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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