Random Speculation: The Genetic Metallic Arts are not Natural

[WeiryWriter]

So welcome back to another of my Random Speculations, theories that don't really have enough support to be an actual Theory but that I nevertheless like the idea of. I'm not saying this is how I think things are, but I do think it is a possibility to be considered.

 

The Three Metallic Arts consist of Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy.  One of these however, is not like the other.  Allomancy and Feruchemy both require certain genetic codes in order to be used, Hemalurgy does not.  However we know that the Southern Scadrians have different versions of the Metallic Arts, that are mechanical rather than genetic.

 

Why did two different manifestations of the same systems emerge?  Well we know very little about the mechanical Arts so let's look at the genetic Arts.

 

How does one become a Feruchemist?  Aside from Hemalurgy the only known way is to inherit the genes for Feruchemy from a parent.  So where then did the genes come from?  We know they only appeared in the Terris population, and that it was given to them by Preservation long ago.

 

 

Q.  For Feruchemy, can you only inherit that? Or is there another way to get it?

A.  You could obviously get it through a Hemalurgic spike.

Q.  Yeah, but that’s kind of a different thing.

A.  It is hereditary, but it came from somewhere. [...] Which is a RAFO, but it’s not a big RAFO. There’s not something you missed in the books, or anything like that. It originally came from Preservation long ago. And there are other ways to get it, but you have not missed any major plot points regarding that. Good question.

 

(source)

 

 

How does one become an Allomancer?  Again aside from Hemalurgy, one must either inherit the genes for Allomancy from a parent, get Snapped by the Mists, or burn lerasium.  The later two being the source of the genes.

 

So we have three sources: a direct gift from Preservation, a mechanism put into place by Preservation, and the physical body of Preservation. I don't know about you but that smells like Shardic meddling to me.  We know Preservation can alter some things, he swapped out the external Temporal metals in the Mist-snapping mechanism.

 

So here is my random speculation:

 

The mechanical manifestations of the Metallic Arts are the original/natural manifestations of the Metallic Arts.  The genetic manifestations are a result of Preservation meddling and inserting the abilities of Allomancy and Feruchemy directly into humans.

 

Why would he do this?  Well I don't really have a good answer for that.  Perhaps with Feruchemy it was an effort to help preserve the Prophecies of the Hero of Ages, and that genetic Allomancy is better at consuming atium, to help combat Ruin.  I just don't know.  I could be entirely wrong about all of this, I'm not convinced by this but it is an idea to be considered.

 

What do all of you think?

[Blaze1616]

That is an interesting theory. Personally, I believe the opposite. I think that they are originally genetic, and the mechanical form of the arts is the "meddled" form. This is because the magic systems on the other shardworlds are not naturally mechanical. Granted, they are not naturally genetic either (at least I have no proof/evidence). Rather than call it genetic, though, I prefer the term biological. Breath is a biological system, and the basis of Awakening. The magics on Sel all seem to have a biological aspect (the only one that is not necessarily biological is the form of magic performed by the Jindoese individual whose name escapes me). On Roshar, I'm not sure how I would classify the system.

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "mechanical"? I think I might be confused...Thanks.

[Lindel]

As I see it, the most "natural" form of magic in the Cosmere is always based on the workings of the person's Spiritweb. Everyone on Nalthis, whether it's something in their sDNA or something to do with being born on the planet, has a Breath. On Roshar, bonding a Spren changes your Spiritweb. On Scadrial, certain genes in your sDNA grant you either Feruchemy, or Allomancy.

 

So I guess I'm agreeing with Blaze. The only mechanical systems we've seen so far are the fabrials on Roshar and the Southern Scardial's mechanical Metalic Arts, which I assume are quite similar. "Mist-fabrials", so to speak. They're basically both man-made ways of using Investiture. 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems highly unlikely to me that magical machines predate magical people. Fabrials, and by extension mist-fabrials, are just another way of accessing that Shard's Investiture. Fabrials on Roshar bind spren within gemstones to utilize the Surges. Mist-fabrials are presumably a similarly mechanical method of accessing Preservation's power. 

 

I've also always assumed that mist-fabrials was something discovered by Southern Scadrians after Rashek's Ascension, whereas Feruchemy and Allomancy were both present before, although Allomancy was less common back then. If the machines had existed during Alendi's time, we'd probably see some kind of remnant of that in the Final Empire. 

 

In conclusion, it's my opinion that although the possibility of creating mist-fabrials has existed as long as any of the other Metallic Arts, it's no more "natural" than Allomancy or Feruchemy. Given the fact that Feruchemy and Allomancy naturally show up in Scadrian genes, whereas mist-fabrials would, like any machine, require sufficiently advanced scientific knowledge, it seems likely that the two genetic Arts were discovered first. 

 

EDIT: Just saw that "mist-fabrials" is under your list of espoused theories. And I went through all the trouble of an entire Google search to find it... 

Edited November 12, 2014 by Lindel

[Moogle]

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems highly unlikely to me that magical machines predate magical people. Fabrials, and by extension mist-fabrials, are just another way of accessing that Shard's Investiture. Fabrials on Roshar bind spren within gemstones to utilize the Surges. Mist-fabrials are presumably a similarly mechanical method of accessing Preservation's power.

 

We've never actually seen a Surgebinding fabrial with a captured spren. In fact, given that they're quite often powered by gemhearts, and no one knows how to create new Soulcasters, it's incredibly unlikely that Surgebinding fabrials use captured spren. The reason Soulcasters function the way they do seems to be in the metal itself, with the gems only providing a power source - much like Shardplate, which you can power with any sort of gem.

 

Modern fabrials, as made by the artifabrians, seem to act mostly based on the captured spren. You can't just use any old gem, because the gem is what holds the spren.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

As I see it, the most "natural" form of magic in the Cosmere is always based on the workings of the person's Spiritweb. Everyone on Nalthis, whether it's something in their sDNA or something to do with being born on the planet, has a Breath. On Roshar, bonding a Spren changes your Spiritweb. On Scadrial, certain genes in your sDNA grant you either Feruchemy, or Allomancy.

 

So I guess I'm agreeing with Blaze. The only mechanical systems we've seen so far are the fabrials on Roshar and the Southern Scardial's mechanical Metalic Arts, which I assume are quite similar. "Mist-fabrials", so to speak. They're basically both man-made ways of using Investiture. 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems highly unlikely to me that magical machines predate magical people. Fabrials, and by extension mist-fabrials, are just another way of accessing that Shard's Investiture. Fabrials on Roshar bind spren within gemstones to utilize the Surges. Mist-fabrials are presumably a similarly mechanical method of accessing Preservation's power. 

 

I've also always assumed that mist-fabrials was something discovered by Southern Scadrians after Rashek's Ascension, whereas Feruchemy and Allomancy were both present before, although Allomancy was less common back then. If the machines had existed during Alendi's time, we'd probably see some kind of remnant of that in the Final Empire. 

 

In conclusion, it's my opinion that although the possibility of creating mist-fabrials has existed as long as any of the other Metallic Arts, it's no more "natural" than Allomancy or Feruchemy. Given the fact that Feruchemy and Allomancy naturally show up in Scadrian genes, whereas mist-fabrials would, like any machine, require sufficiently advanced scientific knowledge, it seems likely that the two genetic Arts were discovered first. 

 

EDIT: Just saw that "mist-fabrials" is under your list of espoused theories. And I went through all the trouble of an entire Google search to find it... 

 

To me,there is a big difference between the Rosharan fabrials and the "Mist Fabrials" at a basic level though related to Investiture and it's interaction with Foci. 

 

In Fabrials, the Investiture is the Stormlight, which is stored in the gems. The gems are the Focus to the power that the Investiture accesses. 

 

In Allomancy and Feruchemy however, the Investiture is hardwired into the Spiritweb and the metal is the Focus for the Power of creation. 

 

I readily comprehend Rosharian Fabrials, they are essentially a ROM chip magic system. Hard-coded and basically inaccessible, but when you supply power it does what it's designed to do. 

 

Mechanical Metallic arts however do not yet make sense to me, as it would imply that the investiture. I've read the "Mist-Fabrial" theory and I guess it is correct, but I'm not sure how you infuse mists into metal. I don't really understand infusing a gem with Stormlight, but at least the crystalline structure can be viewed as a storage matrix or sorts. With Metals that is harder to visualize or conceptualize. 

[Moogle]

In Fabrials, the Investiture is the Stormlight, which is stored in the gems. The gems are the Focus to the power that the Investiture accesses.

 

(Stormlight spoilers ho!)

 

I don't think gems are the "focus" of Surgebinding or fabrials in general. The type of gem used doesn't matter when Surgebinding, after all (with an exception for Soulcasting). The type of metal matters in Allomancy, as does the type of Command used in Awakening, as does the specific symbol used with the AonDor.

 

The type of gem might matter in relation to Surgebinding fabrials (the Regrowth fabrial used in Dalinar's vision used a heliodor/topaz, which might mean it targets flesh and bone), but our evidence is quite lacking on that front. New-style fabrials definitely seem to care about the gem type, but even then it's not this huge thing. The Ars Arcanum notes that many different types of gems work for the same type of fabrial, at least in some cases.

 

If I had to guess on the focus of Surgebinding, I'd guess it's bonds. Bond a Splinter, or, well, anything with Investiture, and you get a power. Bond a spren, boom Surgebinding. Bond a Splinter of Honor, boom Surgebinding. Bond a Radiant, and now you get to be a squire. Force a bond from a spren to a gemstone, and it gets powers. Etc.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

So question to expand my own knowledge. I always thought that if you genetically had allomancy, you were then snapped to trigger the ability to be active. If I did not genetically have allomancy, then snapping could not occur. From the way you phrased it in your theory, I got the impression that you were saying it was possible for someone with no genetic marker for allomancy to be snapped by the mists and become an allomancer. Did I read that correctly? Is this new info?

[Redbird]

Do you know if hemalurgicly granted abilities are genetic?

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Its worth taking the time to categorize things that we know about the Metallic arts in order to facilitate this theories development.

 

I'm going to start with what I think is the biggest thing that supports this theory:

We know that Metal can be infused with the metallic arts investiture.

From Feruchemy and Hemalurgy we know that metal's can "Hold" a charge. And while its different in the ways it is we can see how powerful the effects of investing items from Nightblood.

 

We also know that Atium and Lesurim are specifically heavily invested and that there physical nature changes when they are invested heavily enough.

 

While we cannot see how allomantic investiture in metals would "Work" mechanically in a system thats not Hemalurgy the idea both that it would be possible and or the more natural way to do it makes plenty of sense and considering to make the metallic arts we know required the direct touch of a shard while other systems do not have this function.

It makes sense that this would be an exception rather than a rule on how to use it and possibly a back door exploited by the shard itself.

 

It would make an interesting and rather stark contrast for the people of North Scadrial to meet the people of South Scadrial and find out that the genetic version of the metallic arts Do Not Exist in their population.

How would both side feel to find the other. Would they see each other as freaks and anomalies? How would the north handle the thing give by birthright and chance being something that the people of the south can just pick and choose?

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Do you know if hemalurgicly granted abilities are genetic?

 

Kolosis Blooded is a firm argument that over time repeated use of a hemalurgic spike changes the sDNA in your descendants. 

Also there is a WoB on the subject. I will look for it.

[Pathfinder]

Kolosis Blooded is a firm argument that over time repeated use of a hemalurgic spike changes the sDNA in your descendants. 

Also there is a WoB on the subject. I will look for it.

Well I know there is WoB that Sazed changed the koloss so they can breed true, is that what you are referring to?

[Moogle]

There are several WoBs on it:

zas678 (Reddit.com)
You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, but there also could be...complications.
(source)

 

Question
If you have a series of inquisitors, like a family of inquisitors having children for generations over...

Brandon Sanderson
Would the Hemalurgy influence the sDNA of the children? Is that what you are asking? That is a hypothesis that has merit in the way the magic system works (grin). It is not a supposition to be discarded out of hand.
(source)

Edited November 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Blaze1616]

(Stormlight spoilers ho!)

 

I don't think gems are the "focus" of Surgebinding or fabrials in general. The type of gem used doesn't matter when Surgebinding, after all (with an exception for Soulcasting). The type of metal matters in Allomancy, as does the type of Command used in Awakening, as does the specific symbol used with the AonDor.

 

The type of gem might matter in relation to Surgebinding fabrials (the Regrowth fabrial used in Dalinar's vision used a heliodor/topaz, which might mean it targets flesh and bone), but our evidence is quite lacking on that front. New-style fabrials definitely seem to care about the gem type, but even then it's not this huge thing. The Ars Arcanum notes that many different types of gems work for the same type of fabrial, at least in some cases.

 

Are you certain that the gem does not matter? I always thought the gem defined what materials the fabrial would work on. As you pointed out, a Regrowth fabrial with a heliodor gem would work on flesh (topaz would not work on bone, I don't think). As such, to Regrowth plants, one would need a fabrial with emerald. If this is not the case, what is the point of the Ars Arcanum chart? I have yet to understand what the other columns are for (I'm thinking other magic systems, or details about the Radiant system we don't know yet). If that is not what the "Soulcasting Properties" is referencing, I see no point for Brandon to have bothered to include it yet.

 

It would make an interesting and rather stark contrast for the people of North Scadrial to meet the people of South Scadrial and find out that the genetic version of the metallic arts Do Not Exist in their population.

How would both side feel to find the other. Would they see each other as freaks and anomalies? How would the north handle the thing give by birthright and chance being something that the people of the south can just pick and choose?

 

I don't see why the northern Scadrians would view the southerners oddly for not having genetic Allomancy. The northerners themselves have a very large population that cannot use Allomancy or Feruchemy. The southerners, in the situation you've detailed, might view the northerners as strange though. However the situation you've detailed implies they have access to Feruchemy, just not Allomancy. I am excited to see them meet each other for the first time. I'm most interested in what southern Scadrial is like.

 

As a side note, it would be greatly beneficial for the forum if you would run a quick grammar check before posting. Just give your own post a once over before hitting the post button (alternatively just edit your post after posting). I hope you don't read that with a rude tone, I was not intending to be rude. I simply had to read your post a good four or five times to - hopefully - understand what you were saying. Thanks!

[Moogle]

Are you certain that the gem does not matter? I always thought the gem defined what materials the fabrial would work on. As you pointed out, a Regrowth fabrial with a heliodor gem would work on flesh (topaz would not work on bone, I don't think). As such, to Regrowth plants, one would need a fabrial with emerald. If this is not the case, what is the point of the Ars Arcanum chart? I have yet to understand what the other columns are for (I'm thinking other magic systems, or details about the Radiant system we don't know yet). If that is not what the "Soulcasting Properties" is referencing, I see no point for Brandon to have bothered to include it yet.

 

The theory in regards to the heliodor/topaz is about the body focus. Heliodor targets the flesh, topaz targets the bone. By this theory, when Nalan repaired Szeth's soul, he'd have used a ruby in his Regrowth fabrial to heal the soul. However, the body focuses are mainly philosophical in nature by WoB, so it is entirely possible this is meaningless and gem type doesn't matter in your fabrial. (The WoB is not in an easy to find place, but as I recall it was in the recent Goodreads Q&A. Theoryland really needs to update more often, or allow community contributions.) Overall, I don't think the gem type matters in Regrowth fabrials, but it's possible I'm wrong. The theory is interesting.

 

The theory also has a notable issue with body focuses: what would it mean to use a Regrowth fabrial with a sapphire or smokestone and target "inhalation/exhalation"?

 

---

 

Keep in mind that the Ars Arcanum chart is an "imperfect gathering of Vorin symbolism" by its own admission. Similarly, the lines between orders in the Surgebinding chart are "meaningless" and entirely cultural/philosophical associations by recent WoB I cannot find off-hand.

 

The main columns that matter are Soulcasting properties (since gem type matters in Soulcasting), essence, and gemstone. "Divine attributes" are also meaningful, as they appear to be the attributes of the type of people each order tries to produce, but they're often horrifically wrong. (See: the part where Shallan is associated with honesty. She sort of is, but the chart is entirely misleading.)

 

But then, who knows what will come up in the future? Perhaps the entire chart is meaningful.

 

---

I'd be entirely surprised if gem type mattered in a Gravity fabrial, for example. What would a different gem type even do to that? We also know that Surgebinders, in general, don't care about gem type, with the exception of those Soulcasting:

StormAtlas

I finally got to ask a question about the Stormlight Archive that Windrunner17 and Chaos helped me with which was: "Why Can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types?"

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding. It's more a quirk of Soulcasting than it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though; Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't.

(source)

 

Giving fabrials additional restrictions would be odd. Soulcasters require specific gem types, and this limitation is mirrored in Surgebinders. But other Surgebinders don't need specific gem types, so why would fabrials of that type require specific gems?

 

Note that I'm not arguing that gem type is irrelevant - modern fabrials made with captured spren function differently based on the different type of gem. But I think for Surgebinding fabrials in particular, with the exception of Soulcasting, it shouldn't matter. Also, gem type doesn't matter when you're powering Shardplate, which is strong evidence in its own right. Plate definitely seems to be a fabrial of sorts.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Blaze1616]

 

The theory in regards to the heliodor/topaz is about the body focus. Heliodor targets the flesh, topaz targets the bone. By this theory, when Nalan repaired Szeth's soul, he'd have used a ruby in his Regrowth fabrial to heal the soul. However, the body focuses are mainly philosophical in nature by WoB, so it is entirely possible this is meaningless and gem type doesn't matter in your fabrial. (The WoB is not in an easy to find place, but as I recall it was in the recent Goodreads Q&A. Theoryland really needs to update more often, or allow community contributions.) Overall, I don't think the gem type matters in Regrowth fabrials, but it's possible I'm wrong. The theory is interesting.

 

The theory also has a notable issue with body focuses: what would it mean to use a Regrowth fabrial with a sapphire or smokestone and target "inhalation/exhalation"?

 

---

 

Keep in mind that the Ars Arcanum chart is an "imperfect gathering of Vorin symbolism" by its own admission. Similarly, the lines between orders in the Surgebinding chart are "meaningless" and entirely cultural/philosophical associations by recent WoB I cannot find off-hand.

 

The main columns that matter are Soulcasting properties (since gem type matters in Soulcasting), essence, and gemstone. "Divine attributes" are also meaningful, as they appear to be the attributes of the type of people each order tries to produce, but they're often horrifically wrong. (See: the part where Shallan is associated with honesty. She sort of is, but the chart is entirely misleading.)

 

But then, who knows what will come up in the future? Perhaps the entire chart is meaningful.

 

---

I'd be entirely surprised if gem type mattered in a Gravity fabrial, for example. What would a different gem type even do to that? We also know that Surgebinders, in general, don't care about gem type, with the exception of those Soulcasting:

 

Giving fabrials additional restrictions would be odd. Soulcasters require specific gem types, and this limitation is mirrored in Surgebinders. But other Surgebinders don't need specific gem types, so why would fabrials of that type require specific gems?

 

Note that I'm not arguing that gem type is irrelevant - modern fabrials made with captured spren function differently based on the different type of gem. But I think for Surgebinding fabrials in particular, with the exception of Soulcasting, it shouldn't matter. Also, gem type doesn't matter when you're powering Shardplate, which is strong evidence in its own right. Plate definitely seems to be a fabrial of sorts.

 

Okay, so I seem to have been mistaken in my understanding of the Ars Arcanum. I would agree, then, that for fabrials that specifically perform Surgebinding functions gem type probably does not matter, with the exception of Soulcasting. It really does make one wonder why Allomancy would require such specific foci, when the other end-positive systems do not, nor do the end-neutral systems except for Feruchemy. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to clarify that for me Moogle!

Edited November 13, 2014 by Blaze1616

[Moogle]

Okay, so I seem to have been mistaken in my understanding of the Ars Arcanum. I would agree, then, that for fabrials that specifically perform Surgebinding functions gem type probably does not matter, with the exception of Soulcasting. It really does make one wonder why Allomancy would require such specific foci, when the other end-positive systems do not, nor do the end-neutral systems except for Feruchemy.

 

I think that the problem is that you're seeing gem types as equivalent to metal types in Allomancy. While we don't know for sure, it seems a pretty safe bet that gems are not foci in the sense that metals are in Allomancy. (Not to be a broken record, but I'm a huge fan of the theory on it being bonds.)

 

Awakening does have a very specific focus: the Commands. Similarly, the AonDor has a very specific focus with its symbols.

 

There's differences in how 'rigid' the systems are, certainly, and some people have attempted to classify this (Chaos recently made a thread in Cosmere theories), but even within the systems there's usually leeway. For example, someone burning brass can control which emotions are targeted and who they're targeting, even though Allomancy in general only does very limited things and is very "on or off".

 

Even the AonDor seems to have some leeway via illusions, though this is not clear. (If anyone wants to argue the illusions point and say that the image is entirely specified within the Aons drawn, I'd be interested in your arguments. My current mental model is that you tell the AonDor to extract the illusion from your mind, because specifying an illusion would require insane amounts of information otherwise to hardcode in.)

 

Edit: Here's the WoBs I mentioned earlier:

Question

Why are do the Windrunners, Elsecallers, Stonewards, and Dustbringers have an extra connection on the Surgebinding diagram? Why do the Edgedancer, Skybreaker, Lightweaver, Willshaper's have a broken connection on the diagram? What are the dragon type things in the back of the diagram?

Brandon Sanderson

The dragon type things are a certain animal you've seen several places in the story so far.

These connections will be explained eventually, but remember it's not the orders being connected, but instead their elemental representations. This diagram is very metaphysical, and some of the elements of it are cultural.

 

Question 

What is the definition of a focus (in The Way of Kings' Ars Arcanum)?

Brandon Sanderson

Foci, though linked to the magic system, are more like artifacts of the philosophy surrounding the magic system. A focus is a philosophical concept, rather than a hardfast rule related to the magic system. A man-made, artificial way of explaining the magic system. Like the periodic table.

(source)

Edited November 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Blaze1616]

 

I think that the problem is that you're seeing gem types as equivalent to metal types in Allomancy. While we don't know for sure, it seems a pretty safe bet that gems are not foci in the sense that metals are in Allomancy. (Not to be a broken record, but I'm a huge fan of the theory on it being bonds.)

 

Awakening does have a very specific focus: the Commands. Similarly, the AonDor has a very specific focus with its symbols.

 

There's differences in how 'rigid' the systems are, certainly, and some people have attempted to classify this (Chaos recently made a thread in Cosmere theories), but even within the systems there's usually leeway. For example, someone burning brass can control which emotions are targeted and who they're targeting, even though Allomancy in general only does very limited things and is very "on or off".

 

Even the AonDor seems to have some leeway via illusions, though this is not clear. (If anyone wants to argue the illusions point and say that the image is entirely specified within the Aons drawn, I'd be interested in your arguments. My current mental model is that you tell the AonDor to extract the illusion from your mind, because specifying an illusion would require insane amounts of information otherwise to hardcode in.)

 

Ah, okay, I get it. So in reality, all the magic systems are rather rigid. I was furthering my confusion by not fully understanding the Cosmere definition of Foci. Thanks! 

 

Given what we know, then, it would definitely seem, as you say, that bonds are the focus for Surgebinding. In addition, we've seen that intent plays a major role in just about all of the systems other than Surgebinding so far (at least, I cannot think of an example where it mattered), and potentially Allomancy, though emotional Allomancy certainly seems linked to intent, as you've said. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by Blaze1616

[Moogle]

Ah, okay, I get it. So in reality, all the magic systems are rather rigid. I was furthering my confusion by not fully understanding the Cosmere definition of Foci. Thanks! 

 

Just to clarify again: we don't actually know exactly what the definition of a focus is in the Cosmere. We've confirmed through WoB that metals act as the focus of Allomancy, Commands in Awakening, and I believe the symbols of the AonDor, so we have sort of a fuzzy idea on what they are and what they do... but we don't know for sure. Also, the focuses aren't even required: the mists make it so you don't need metals for Allomancy, for example. Foci are confusing, but ripe for theories.

 

Also, I'd say that not all the systems are "rigid". Like, they're all based on foci in some sense, but just look at Awakening: you can do pretty much anything you can imagine. The system is very open and not at all rigid in that regard. There's typically a sliding scale of how much Intent matters, as you note. If I had to order things, I'd put things in order as:

 

Awakening: almost entirely Intent.

Surgebinding: depending on the Surge, almost entirely Intent or very limited. In general, though, seems to require a fair bit of Intent.

Allomancy: very little Intent. Pewter, tin, atium, electrum, gold, copper, bronze, duralumin, aluminum, chromium, nicrosil, all are very "on or off", though you can do very limited things with Intent through them (such as detecting Feruchemy with bronze, or extending the emotional protection of copper to others and not just yourself). The other metals are more Intent-y.

AonDor: almost zero Intent, as everything is controlled by the symbols you've made.

 

What's more is that generally systems on the same planet seem to follow similar Intent-required levels. Feruchemy has very little Intent required, like Allomancy, and the same with Hemalurgy. (Though Hemalurgy requires Intent for what attribute you're stealing.) The Aondor, ChayShan, and Forgery all seem to use very little Intent, though I could (and have) argued for hours on just how much Intent is involved with Forgery. I'm not sure if this is an actual pattern or if I'm crazy, though.

 

If you have any theories on any of this, or ideas on how to fit these things into a framework, please say! The Cosmere theories board has been very quiet lately.

[Lindel]

We've never actually seen a Surgebinding fabrial with a captured spren. In fact, given that they're quite often powered by gemhearts, and no one knows how to create new Soulcasters, it's incredibly unlikely that Surgebinding fabrials use captured spren. The reason Soulcasters function the way they do seems to be in the metal itself, with the gems only providing a power source - much like Shardplate, which you can power with any sort of gem.

 

Modern fabrials, as made by the artifabrians, seem to act mostly based on the captured spren. You can't just use any old gem, because the gem is what holds the spren.

 

I meant they create Surge-like effects. Healing Fabrials, for example, share similarities to the Progression Surge. Modern fabrials, unlike Soulcasters, don't copy Surgebinding effects, but they seem to be based on similar principles. 

[WeiryWriter]

Responses to (some) of you

 

That is an interesting theory. Personally, I believe the opposite. I think that they are originally genetic, and the mechanical form of the arts is the "meddled" form. This is because the magic systems on the other shardworlds are not naturally mechanical. Granted, they are not naturally genetic either (at least I have no proof/evidence). Rather than call it genetic, though, I prefer the term biological. Breath is a biological system, and the basis of Awakening. The magics on Sel all seem to have a biological aspect (the only one that is not necessarily biological is the form of magic performed by the Jindoese individual whose name escapes me). On Roshar, I'm not sure how I would classify the system.

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "mechanical"? I think I might be confused...Thanks.

 

We really know very little about them (pretty much just that they exist).  I refer to the genetic variants that way because that's what Brandon referred to them as in the original WoB.

 

As I see it, the most "natural" form of magic in the Cosmere is always based on the workings of the person's Spiritweb. Everyone on Nalthis, whether it's something in their sDNA or something to do with being born on the planet, has a Breath. On Roshar, bonding a Spren changes your Spiritweb. On Scadrial, certain genes in your sDNA grant you either Feruchemy, or Allomancy.

 

So I guess I'm agreeing with Blaze. The only mechanical systems we've seen so far are the fabrials on Roshar and the Southern Scardial's mechanical Metalic Arts, which I assume are quite similar. "Mist-fabrials", so to speak. They're basically both man-made ways of using Investiture. 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but it seems highly unlikely to me that magical machines predate magical people. Fabrials, and by extension mist-fabrials, are just another way of accessing that Shard's Investiture. Fabrials on Roshar bind spren within gemstones to utilize the Surges. Mist-fabrials are presumably a similarly mechanical method of accessing Preservation's power. 

 

I've also always assumed that mist-fabrials was something discovered by Southern Scadrians after Rashek's Ascension, whereas Feruchemy and Allomancy were both present before, although Allomancy was less common back then. If the machines had existed during Alendi's time, we'd probably see some kind of remnant of that in the Final Empire. 

 

In conclusion, it's my opinion that although the possibility of creating mist-fabrials has existed as long as any of the other Metallic Arts, it's no more "natural" than Allomancy or Feruchemy. Given the fact that Feruchemy and Allomancy naturally show up in Scadrian genes, whereas mist-fabrials would, like any machine, require sufficiently advanced scientific knowledge, it seems likely that the two genetic Arts were discovered first. 

 

EDIT: Just saw that "mist-fabrials" is under your list of espoused theories. And I went through all the trouble of an entire Google search to find it... 

 

(sorry for not talking about the begining part of your post, but the whole magi-tech vs. bio-magic thing is something I have very murky thoughts on at the moment so I don't feel I can respond well at this time)

 

I agree that the genetic manifestations were necessarily discovered first, perhaps that is why Preservation created them.  He knew that he couldn't rely on them developing the mechanical manifestations before the conflict with Ruin really became a problem.  I do want to be clear that I while I think the mechanical manifestations might have existed first that  does not mean I think they were actually in use first.

 

So question to expand my own knowledge. I always thought that if you genetically had allomancy, you were then snapped to trigger the ability to be active. If I did not genetically have allomancy, then snapping could not occur. From the way you phrased it in your theory, I got the impression that you were saying it was possible for someone with no genetic marker for allomancy to be snapped by the mists and become an allomancer. Did I read that correctly? Is this new info?

 

It's complicated.  The conventional thought is that the mists are just bringing to light latent Allomantic genes, which is supported by the fact that the Terris are completely immune.  However the mistsickness-Snappings are distinctly unnatural (by design) in that it only affects 16% of a group (or as close to 16% as is possible) and that 1/16th of those afflicted are Seers.  What are the chances that at least 16% of a group /always/ have latent allomantic genes?  Granted I could be wrong, but the genes have to have come from somewhere.

 

Do you know if hemalurgicly granted abilities are genetic?

Kolosis Blooded is a firm argument that over time repeated use of a hemalurgic spike changes the sDNA in your descendants. 
Also there is a WoB on the subject. I will look for it.

 

Moogle has shared the WoB's on the subject (thank you!) but I would say the koloss-blooded are not a good example.  They are a direct result of Sazed changing the koloss into a true-breeding species, not generations of hemalurgic inheritance.

[Lindel]

 

I readily comprehend Rosharian Fabrials, they are essentially a ROM chip magic system. Hard-coded and basically inaccessible, but when you supply power it does what it's designed to do. 

 

Which is exactly why Rosharan Fabrials were discovered earlier, and are much more prevalent across Roshar. On Scadrial, it's more complicated. 

 

Mechanical Metallic arts however do not yet make sense to me, as it would imply that the investiture. I've read the "Mist-Fabrial" theory and I guess it is correct, but I'm not sure how you infuse mists into metal. I don't really understand infusing a gem with Stormlight, but at least the crystalline structure can be viewed as a storage matrix or sorts. With Metals that is harder to visualize or conceptualize. 

 

 

fool

Well, metals on Scadrial form a gateway for preservation's power. We have WoB that it's possible to infuse a Spike with mists. It's probably safe to assume that the molecular structure of the metal, just as it tells a Hemalurgic spike what to steal, or what effect it has when burned Allomantically, it channels the same power in some way when infused. The process of infusing a spike is clearly more complicated than simply leaving it out in the mists. The nature of Investure on Scadrial clearly changes how these mist-fabrials are created and how they function, but the basic principles are the same. 

[Lindel]

 

 

(sorry for not talking about the begining part of your post, but the whole magi-tech vs. bio-magic thing is something I have very murky thoughts on at the moment so I don't feel I can respond well at this time)

 

I agree that the genetic manifestations were necessarily discovered first, perhaps that is why Preservation created them.  He knew that he couldn't rely on them developing the mechanical manifestations before the conflict with Ruin really became a problem.  I do want to be clear that I while I think the mechanical manifestations might have existed first that  does not mean I think they were actually in use first.

 

Yeah, it took me some time to work out what I was really trying to say. 

 

We have WoB that Feruchemy was somehow introduced to the population by Preservation. It would follow that Allomancy was intentionally introduced at some point. I'm not sure that Preservation necessarily designed Allomancy, as you're saying. We know he tweaked the metals chart, swapping Bendalloy and Cadmium for Atium and Malatium. Why would it be necessary to alter the chart for his own purposes if he'd designed it in the first place? It would depend on the timing. It's possible he designed the chart in its original form, and later changed his mind and reworked it.     

[WeiryWriter]

I'm not saying he designed Allomancy, i'm saying he might have taken the existing mechanical Allomancy system (Allomantech as it were) and fiddled with its capabilities and inserted its effects into genetic code.  He did not design the metal chart, it came into existence when he and Ruin Invested in Scadrial.  He tweaked it in terms of the mist-Snappings because A ) he needed some way for atium to be consumed to counteract Ruin and B ) Cadmium and Bendalloy are really hard to produce so it's not like the people would have access to them in the first place.