happyman

Hm. Define "Normal Circumstances". Also note that Sazed observed that they belonged together. Given that statement, I would much rather call Scadrial's plight with the two separate as "Abnormal Circumstances". Combine this with the fact that Sazed actually does use the two together, and we see that the annihilation and anti-matter analogy isn't perfect. The two forces oppose each other by default, but they don't actually destroy each other. They may press up against each other so hard that they have essentially no effect, but neither one actually goes anywhere. They're more like what electrons and protons would be if they were the same mass. And in a case like that, the addition of a third particle could change the entire dynamics entirely, all without changing the fundamental nature of the smaller pieces. Edit: Extra thought: There's the old saying that something is more than the sum of it's parts. As a physicist, I can say with 100% certainty that this is absolutely true. At the lowest level in our universe, combining some of the dullest mechanics you can find (single particles) and making them interact results in behavior that springs from absolutely nowhere---it can be attributed to no part, but only to the interaction between them. There is extra mass, extra energy, and so much richness, it's hard to express how quickly it can happen. Thus saying that Sazed only holds two Shards may be 100% true---but the resulting system, including the effect on his consciousness and the balance, may well legitimately be considered a new entity in it's own right. Even if that means there are only, really, 16 shards.

Feruchemy does neither. The power you use is your own, and you get as much back as you put in, at least if you don't try to access too much too quickly. It simply moves around when you use it, not how much you have available. Or as I see it, because metal is the focus for the metallic arts, and because Preservation provides power (allowing you to preserve your own) and Ruin destroys power (by decreasing the amount overall), Feruchemy simply allows you to store your own attributes in metals. It the the art of using power with metal without either preserving or ruining the power. An elegant balance.

This is how I understand Brandon's statements. Magic systems would be far too hobbled if they could only act in accordance with the Shard's intent at all times. It also relates to Hemalurgy. Theoretically, you could use Hemalurgy to save a city from destruction, at the "small" price of 8-16 mistings and your own sanity. The method of accessing the power destroys things overall, but once it has been accessed, it can be used for preservation or destruction. Doubtless the same thing applies to Aon Dor. Whatever shard gives access to the Dor, once the power is present, it can be used for an enormous number of things, some of which probably go against the Shard's intent, or are neutral with respect to it.

This is a really good analogy. It does seem likely that something like that would happen to Sazed's consciousness, even if the two powers stay separate. It means making a distinction between the consciousness holding the powers and the powers themselves, but since that's been pretty thoroughly established already, I have no problem with this. Are there any responses to this? I feel that zas' point is correct: Even if the powers stay separate in some metaphysical way, the consciousness attached to them will gain a purpose that is a combination (or compromise) of the two, and thus deserve a new name. Doesn't make it the 17th shard, though, or anything like that. There are still two shards.

Which leads into the obvious question: Where is Shallan getting her powers from? It is probably an aspect of honor, but definitely not Kaladin's. Hmmm. We still don't know much about her backstory, so it's hard to say. Maybe she always seeks out the truth, no matter how deeply hidden? She certainly isn't always honest with others.

The "power over electromagnetism" is fine. The fact that there is no cost or limit is not.

That's pretty much what I meant, yeah. I mean, look at it. Both Inquisitors and Koloss start human, but the physical side effects from spiked humans are extreme and repugnant, and it leaves them open to control by a sufficient number of Mistings, let alone powerful Mistborn. There's no reason to think that animal Hemalurgy wouldn't have similar side effects. I suspect that they would actually be nastier because the power you are splicing on is more mismatched from your true nature. EDIT: Either that, or animal contributions wouldn't be as effective. I actually think that makes more sense: To get anything useful out of animal contributions would require more spikes and more changes, leaving yourself more vulnerable for the same net gain.

No fair claiming my idea! You said it pretty well, though. I like that description. My only change would be that Odium would have no reason to actually kill you. Just torturing you would probably be enough. Keeping it up after death would just allow the pre-death torture to be that much more dangerous.

This. By the time of the so-called-but-not-really last desolation, the Heralds were already really, really old. Macroscopic species don't change much on that type of time-scale, but races certainly do.

It hasn't been brought up? That it's a Voidbinding chart, in direct correspondence to the Surgebinging chart, seems like the obvious notion. Too obvious, maybe? It seems plausible.

I knew there was an annotation in HoA that clarified it. I haven't found the one I was looking for, but I did find one that was relevant. At the beginning of chapter 49, Sazed explains why Ruin didn't use Inquisitors to free him. Part of it goes as follows: "Before the Lord Ruler's death, he maintained too tight a grip on them to let Ruin control them directly." So I think that answers that.

Yes, because killing them and eating them to survive for about two days is so much more ethical. PETA's reaction would probably be like that. Wow. In reality (well, Brandon's reality) it would probably be dangerous and stupid, if you could ever figure out how to do it. The physical side effects might be quite extreme.

Technically there has been in-world evidence of knowledge of cultivation. Specifically, I refer to Dalinar's vision where he protects the woman and child from monsters. One of the oath's the woman uses is "Three Gods," which most likely refers to Honor, Cultivation and Odium. So at some point in history, they probably had a full knowledge of the Shards present. Modern Vorinism would obviously deny her existence, and we have seen no traditions about her from the viewpoints we have read. However, religious ideas like this can persist in art and culture well after the "official" version has changed. I'm not certain we can rule it out entirely. I am even more certain that even if she is a depiction of a historical figure (instead of being a generic statue), there is no reason to assume that the historical figure would have actually worn a modesty sleeve. But that's rather far afield.

Don't forget that it's probably an in-world document. Brandon takes Tolkein's conceit in the hobbit and really runs with it. This means that any of these pictures will be influenced by the fictional culture Brandon perceives it as having come from. Thus an image of Cultivation could well be wearing a modesty sleeve, just like Renaissance paintings of biblical scenes look like they happened it Italy.

Oh. What I mean is that this quote is from a dying person telling Taragavinian that he sees something, but that he sees why Taragavinian is doing it---so he keeps his mouth shut. Kind of a meta-quote, if you will.

Didn't Vin try this on Marsh, and feel like she almost succeeded?

Given that the unpublished book that's part of the main cosmological arc (along with Mistborn and WoK) is called Dragonsteel, I hope you aren't offended if I keep the option of it being somewhat literal on the table.

Ditto for the fifth heightening being the natural state of returned. It's an important plot point, given the powers listed in the Ars Arcanum for people who reach the fifth heightening.

Just a point here: I do not believe Ruin lost all, or even most, of his power with the loss of Atium. The thing about that conflict was that Preservation and Ruin are enormous sources of power, but they instinctively fight each other, and they are perfectly balanced in their full forms. The entire war, if you want to call it that, was fought at the fringes of their power where extremely small differences in technique and strategy added up. The bulk of their power the entire time was pushed up against each other and not moving. It's like watching two enormous men arm-wrestle: most of the energy goes into stopping the other from doing anything at all. The actual win comes from things you would have a hard time even noticing if you watched it from the outside with a full understanding of the context.

I'm pretty sure it's one of Taragavinian's "patients" who says this, but it's probably not Szeth, given that he hasn't died. About all this quote gives us is an insight into the kind of information the dying see.

That the Well of Ascension fills up every 2^10 years says that both 10 and 2 are important on Scandrial. They just don't know it there! And, of course, 16 is 2^(2^2). Two exponentiated three times. Coincidence? I really, seriously, doubt it.

Chaos and KChan, I think you guys were being too harsh. I agree that Darniil needs to clarify what he means, and you were right to say so, but the principle of intent is just a theory, folks. Lighten up, dudes. I've seen it happen before: people get so attached to their theory that *anybody* who comes up with an alternative gets slammed, hard. It happened to me on Theoryland where I accidentally went up against an elaborate, established theory and got slammed for, as far as I can tell, the sheer audacity of contradicting a long-time poster. The fact that his theory was turned into mulch by later books (as was mine) showed how unjustified and counterproductive the whole exercise was. I think Darniil is not completely wrong. We don't know, metaphysically, how the different Intents came from one entity, or if they existed a distinct powers before the shattering. We don't know if things that were split can merge. We do know, from Sazed's final POV, that the powers of Ruin and Preservation do belong together and can work together if the entity controlling them so wills it. The whole thing is still mysterious, doubtless as Brandon intended it to be.

I generally support this theory. The continued existence of the separate magic systems and the different types of mists suggest that Sazed holds two shards, with the Shards still being distinct. He still needs a name, and neither shard really fits the single consciousness that is controlling both, so he had to pick something. On a more "personal" note, I would say that in practical terms, Sazed is a god. He may not want worship (haven't read Alloy of Law sample chapters), but there are few definitions of the term god which don't apply. (Note that the definition of God in most of Christianity, modern and historic, is one of the ones that does not apply. I know that. Even by Mormon standards, Sazed isn't God. But the term has a lot more meanings than that, especially in Fantasy.)

This. Because the Lord Ruler gave Lerasium directly to the nobility, Mistborn became far more common than they would have been without it. Without Lerasium, full Mistborn can still occur, but it's much, much rarer. Allomancy usually manifests itself as Mistings. On a side note, I suppose that full Feruchemists occurred more naturally (at least in the Terris population) because balance between Ruin and Preservation is a more natural state for inhabitants of Scandrial than leaning to one or the other. Because preservation is part of their soul, though, Allomancy would still be more common than Hemalurgy, which is probably why it took TLR to introduce any practical uses of Hemalurgy.

Cool but unrealistic. I never did like the "Mutants as a persecuted minority" bit. It makes no sense. In the real world, if people with such abilities really existed, they would de facto rule the world. Too many people would be willing to overlook their "freakishness" for personal gain, and even more would willingly give a mutant power over them in exchange for protection. Real discrimination would flow the other direction, and far more freely, and with far more justification. I like Mistborn's version better: The power they Mistborn and Mistings have, even as it is more limited, is much more real in terms of how people use it.