Pattern
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Mr. T did not write any ketek in the Diagram until now, why would he write this one as a ketek?
Also, this message needs to be seen in a context with:
and we have to understand what "rotation" and "pattern" means.
The palindromes are our best structure until now - not meaning that it IS really relevant. We are still guessing and trying.
That there has been no ketek from Mr.T until now doesn't say anything, since we only know very little from the Diagram.
"Rotation" means probably, that Mr. T wrote around the ceiling. If I would have to write on a ceiling, I would start near the walls and work towards the middle of the room.
"pattern" is still quite unclear. Perhaps creating a nice pattern from the text in pattern 1 would give us a hint to order the number string.
One thing I believe everyone is missing out on is that Floorboard 17 is an interweaving of two other epigraphs.
The original paragraph is AThhbeur...<etc>. It's gibberish until you take every second letter.
It is possible that we're being tripped by Chapter 84's epigraph because we're trying to analyze it as if it is one message. What if it's two instead?
111825101112712491512101011141021511 711210111217134483111071514254143 410916149149341212254101012512710 151910111234125511525121575511123410 1112915121061534 —From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 15
We could split this into two:
Message 1: 1121...
Message 2: 1850...
Or, if it is as people suspect and it's split into pairs of numbers representing characters, then we could split it that way.
That interweaving has been tried (bruteforce substitution, if I remember correctly). There have also been discussions about the different lenghts of both former interweaved messages. I believe they could result from translation from Mr-T-ish to Alethi to English. Or Brandon just didn't count letters...
Concerning patterns: Here what I did to pattern 15 (1st try, will do more tomorrow)
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Well, likely is a bit too optimistic. There really a lot of possibilities to parse the code. I still guess the best observation until now were the palindromes. They are too long to be just random. And Brandon confirmed that the key is in the book. damnation the thread gets too long. I look for quotes, could take a while...
More patterns:
- There are only two 8s and 6s, the only commonality being 61
- There is only one 3 that's not part of a 34 (there are six of them)
- The only 7 that isn't part of a 71 (there are five of them) is in the palindrome
- There is another palindrome exactly between the first two sequences of 101121 which also starts and ends with 151
111825-101112-71249-151-2-10-101114-10-2-151-17112-101112-17134483111071514254143410916149149341212254101012512710-151-9-101112-34-12-5511-52512157-5511-12-34-101112-9-151-21061534I have no clue how this gets us any closer to turning this into text, but I will keep looking for patterns.
Edit: added 6s
Palindromes could be.
- Vorin proper names (Heralds, numbers, Silver Kingdoms, etc)
- Ketek (symmetric poem), especially the long palindrome
- glyphs - I guess another day or a few and Harakeke will give us full construction laws
Still, there lingers the big question: Why is pattern 15 a number? I will try some stupid stuff tomorrow, more then ;-)
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@thdl: I have sorted the epigraphs containing stuff from the fictional WoR from beginning to end. Luckily I have safed the fun.
But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4
And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan’Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such a patronage
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 5, page 17
As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the realm of the spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 6, page 2
And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiants, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, “capricious, frustrating, unreliable,” as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be the most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty or oddity.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 7, page 1
They also, when they had settled their ruling in the nature of each bond’s placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would by necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbours.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 8, page 6
Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally included to explanation; and in the case of Corberon’s disagreements, their silence was not a sign of an exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 11, page 6
Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 12, page 12
Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat’elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1
But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment to Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14
And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably “Dustbringers,” often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word “Voidbringers”. They also did exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, although to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 17, page 11
When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancer, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 20, page 12
Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10
These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10
There came also sixteen of the order of the Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18
In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for this execution of one of their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy’s baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 32, page 17
Twenty-three cohorts followed behind, that came from the contributions of the King of Makabakam, for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9
Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced; namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6
That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6
This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20
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Hmm, I think now all Thaylen symbols are a little bit jumbled - comes probably from deciphering glyphs, which contain every symbol in its Thaylen and its mirrored version.
Only L, H, P/F and of course V/W are in the form in which they occur in Frostlands Map.
Do you still have your hand written table? That was exactly the same as my handwritten table, which still lies on the stack of paper concerning chapter 84 code....
@ Trickonometry: Both symbols for S are quite distinct, there's probably more to that than just decoration.
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I made a nicer version of the Thaylen key and an illustration of the three styles of glyphs:
Glyph Key-01.pngGlyph Key-02.pngedit: K is backwards - will fix in next upload
L is also backwards
I have flipped the Thaylen numbers, after Harakeke confirmed my suspicion.
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I think I got the numbers (posted in Ch.84 Code thread) from Thaylen script. Once again Frostland map was informative when looking at details, instead of skipping them...
The "south line" of the biggest compass rose ends on the bottom line on "°". From this point, 4 readable symbols are ordered symmetrically (perhaps naming degrees east and west from 0-Meridian). Therefore I would propose
"°"=0
"-"=1
">"=2
"->"=3
"x"=4
and so on.
| on the right side denotes a "10", so °| is 10, -| 11, >| 12, and so on,
|| means 20 , so °||=20, -||=21, >||=22 and so on.
This looks like a mixture of Roman numbers and decimal system. A pity we don't have more numbers, I don't think Thaylen 92 would be a >|||||||||
Symbols have to be rotated I think, since thaylen script runs from top to bottom. Ok, here what I drew, could be that symbols have to be rotated by 180°.
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What about that scene where
Pattern is explaining the patterns he sees in the message that Tyn was receiving from the Ghostbloods]
I'm pretty sure that he explained to Shallan how to puzzle it out.
I have tried that, there is only one explicit sample given. I have posted it somewhere in this thread, but it looked much like a dead end. To summarize: There were quintets of letters, three of which would be used by the ghostbloods at the beginning of a correspondence (first three words beginning with those three letters) and letter 4 and five would by used by Tyn (selection from the quintet which was started). Thats no "code" but just an authentication procedure.
@Aminar: Shallan has many sheets of spanreed paper from earlier correspondences, which are not shown to the reader.
Earlier conversations are not shown from the beginning, but only lots of stuff the Ghostbloods write. They would write that stuff only after authenitcation was successful, right?
@Harakeke: Looks like you moved your post about the frostish map. Did you also do the numbers/letters on the border of the map?
What I didn't see on that map some days ago were the lines across the map. Lines running from top to bottom connect the same symbols (geographical lenght). But: There are 5 different sets of lines which intersect in one point.
1.) North of Shattered Plains
2.) Southeast of scipt "KR" from Alethkar
3.) left border of the map, same geographical width as The Shalllow Crypts
4.) small one South West corner
5.) on ocean, above "STHRN"
There is one line in each set connecting the same numbers on top and bottom of the map - that would again be meridian.
The other lines marking directions.
The "south line" of the biggest compass rose ends on the bottom line on "°". From this point, 4 readable symbols are ordered symmetrically (naming degrees east and west from 0-Meridian). Therefore I would propose as translation table for numbers:
Ok, can that help us to crack the code? I don't know. Perhaps we can translate numbers to Thaylen symbols, look which Alethi glyphs can be built from them, take their sound (like on Amarams maps, stormwarden script) and build hopefully English words with them.
Edit: Ah, I've found your thread abouth Thaylen script and Alethi glyphs. Very nice job there: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6487-thaylen-and-alethi-glyph-translation-spoilers/page-2
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Unfortunately there is no "ode to the carved bedside table" in the epigraphs. In search for a key there are several possibilities:
1.) Epigraphs of part 5 (perhaps also the others, but I like to keep it "simple")
2.) Taravangian Interlude
3.) Graves passages (he wants to introduce Moash to the diagram, so he is related to Taravangian)
4.) Information about Cryptics (Patterns name and his state before bonding can only be described by numbers properly)
5:) Amaram chapters - he seems to know a lot he shouldn't
Edit:
6.) The Ketek on Navani's notebook
Since it's getting late, more tomorrow - perhaps I get an apricity-like dream ;-)
@Harakeke: Did you make progress with Alethi glyphs?
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Also...why is it called a Rotation? Was it originally written in a circular fashion? Would it start from the center and spiral out, with the 2-15th rotations following, or would each pattern be written in a separate circular piece?
In fact I have already written the number on a piece of paper in spiral fashion to look what happens. Unfortunately this is much more arbitrary that the breaking up to number pairs or whatever. Going this path I could create a lot of pictures to decorate my room ;-)
Going back to pattern1 and pattern 15: In pattern 1 there are capital letters for the beginning of a new sentence or in proper names. One could write every sentence in a new line .At the beginning of the thread, 111 has been identified as suspicious. It could be the marker for a new sentence or a captial letter. Writing both patterns like this yield:
Obviously they are fools
The Desolation needs no usher
It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon
The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack
It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia
111
82-5 -10
111
27-12-49-15-12-10-10
111
41-02-15-11-71-12-10
111
21-71-34-48-3
111
07-15-14-25-41-43-41-09-16-14-91-49-34-12-12-25-41-01-01-25-12-71-01-51-9-10
111
23-41-25-51-15-25-12-15-75-5
111
23-4 -10
111
29-15-12-10-61-53-4
In pattern 15, obviously not every 111 can denote a new sentence. And perhaps "10" end a sentence.
It's a bit flawed, since there is a double "10" and there are some "111"s not preceded by a "10".
Palindromes/possible keteks are also destroyed in this point of view.
I don't really like this decomposition, since there are sometimes residual numbers, sometimes not.
Doing the line break only if 111 is preceded by 10 yields:
111
825 -10
111
271249151210-10
111
410215117112-10
111
217134483111071514254143410916149149341212254101012512710151910
111
2341255115251215755111234 -10
111
2915121061534
Another aspect could be that we actuallly have a mathematical series. One of Taravangians intelligence tests?
Description of cryptics before bonding a human? (reference p.888 hardcover)
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A little bit back to glyphs, whether it's useful or not: I skimmed a bit through WoR and found the 10 basic glyphs (they are on Elhokars Shardsword) on page 513. (Shallan's sketchbook: Shardplate).
On the other hand stanzas of Parshendi songs reminded me somehow of the code, but I cannot grasp it properly. Have to look into that somewhen during the weekend.
p 211; 15th stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 219; 5th stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 227; 19th stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 233; 27th stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 246; final stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 258; 69th stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 272; 90th stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 279; 33rd stanza; Listener Song of Listing
p 286; 4th stanza; Listener Song of Winds
p 298; 17th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets
p 303; 27th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets
p 314; 127th stanza; Listener Songof Histories
p 325; 55th stanza; Listener Song of Wars
p 338; 40th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets
p 346; 279th stanza; Listener Song of Revision
p 355; 12th stanza; Listener Song of Histories
p 362; 51th stanza; Listener Song of Secrets
p 368; 9th stanza; Listener Song of Spren
p 377; 10th stanza; Listener Song of Spren
p 385; final stanza; Listener Song of Secrets
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Thats what I wanted to say - the design seems to be very deliberate. Glyphs are more like pictures than script. Like Egyptian Hieroglyphs.
And still different. Assigning a number - therefore the code to glyphs looks to me quite difficult.
I fear we are drifting to another problem - decrypting glyphs, instead of solving the code...
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Split up according by longest-possible palindrome at each point, starting at the beginning.
111-8-2-5-101-11-2-7-1-2-4-9-151-2-10101-11-4-1-0-2-151-171-121-0-111-2-171-3-44-8-3-111-0-7-151-4-2-5-414-3-4-1-0-9-161-4-9-1-4-9-3-4-121-22-5-4-10101-2-5-1-2-7-101-5-191-0-111-2-3-4-1-2-55-11-525-121-575-5-111-2-3-4-101-11-2-9-151-2-1-0-6-1-5-3-4
There are 25 unique numbers here. Could this be a substitution cypher then?
At least the splitting is well defined. I also have tried substitution (and back we are), but didn't get something proper of it.
Concerning Glyphs: I am not quite sure if they can be "constructed" properly. There seems to be much freedom in shaping the
glyphs. You can see this with the "Alight, wind approach deadly approaching winds alight" ketek: "The glyphs of the ketek were drawn in the shape of two storms crashing into one another" - implying they could also have been written in another form, probably keeping the connections but stretching in one direction and squeezing in another (mapping via diffeomorphism). This morphability
can also be seen with the bridgemen tattoos. Glyphs seem to have been reshaped, so that the total tattoo is somewhat aestetic.
Edit: Harakeke is on a very promising approach to build glyphs...
Especially "Kholin" glyph and "Tanat" being nearly mirror images of each other disturbs me, since in WoK the "kholin" glyph has been described as glyphpair "khokh" + "linil" looking like a tower and a crown. "Tanat" would be a single glyph, since it is a palindrome. There is either a mistake or glyphs are all but fixed.
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Do I get it right, that Thaylen script is vowel-free (like Hebrew)?
Ok, to get a feeling for the Thaylen/frostish script I meditated a bit on the map on p.138.
Having done it I find it a bit strange, that m/n share a rune while s has two different runes.
That v/w, c/k and p/f share a rune is not so strange thinking of original latin and greek alphabets.
Sh has one rune, while Th is a compound of the runes of T and h.
Now I go on to "scroll of stances", p 218
On this scroll every glyph is symmetric relative to central vertical axis - If we want to construct a glyph
from Thaylen graphemes, one half should be enough. (left or right??)
(Glyph Pair for Kholin is Khokh Linil, spoken is only the first half, well, Tower and Crown for those glyphs doesn't fit, those are probably stylized versions, see tWoK...Tower and Crown description from WoK does not fit to Bridge 4 tattoo sketch)
on page 83 I would read glyphs for
sas in thaylen grapheme -> latin as SS W ( SS mirrored)
nahn: ? N/M (N/M ? mirrored)
shash: (Sh, Sh mirrored + horizontal oriented lines)1 -
Using this, I found a massive (length 17) palindrome towards the end:
111825-101112-7124915121010111410215117112-101112-17134483111071514254143410916149149341212254101012512710-151-9-101112-34-12-5511-52512157-5511-12-34-101112-9-151-21061534Am heading full speed towards a dead end, or is this significant?Every "holy" name in Vorin culture is a palindrome, so this could be significant!
Silver Kingdoms: Iri, Aimia, Sela Tales, Rishir, Thalath, Natanatan, Alethela, Valhav, Shin Kak Nish, Makabakam
Then: Urithiru (th=1 letter in Alethibet)
Further, keteks are palindromes. The one from WoR being
"Alight, winds approach deadly approaching winds alight."
and
"Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above."
"Radiant / of birthplace / the announcer comes / to come announce / the birthplace of Radiants."
from tWoK.
-151-9-101112-34-12-5511-52512157-5511-12-34-101112-9-151-
leaks perfect symmetry, so it's probably not a name (except 52512157 stands for 1 letter), but symmetrical ordered
words - a candidate for a ketek.
111825-101112-71249-151-2-10-101114-10-2-151-17112-101112-1713448311107-151-4254-14341-09-161-49-1-49-341-212-254-10101-2512710-151-9-101112-34-12-5511-52512157-5511-12-34-101112-9-151-21061534the middle part looks awful, still
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Since I the thread becomes quite long, I collect the passages from the epigraphs which could be interesting.
I leave out the every 2nd-letter messages.
Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and
will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren an-
ticipate it doing so soon. The Ancient of Stones must finally begin
to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and
peace of a world for over four millennia
2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1
11182510111271249151210101114102151171121011121713
44831110715142541434109161491493412122541010125
1271015191011123412551152512157551112341011129151
21061534
2nd Ceiling Rotation pattern 15
Assuming the Diagram is somewhat coherent, the content of the code should relate
to pattern 1. The problem here: patterns 2-14 are missing.
Considering capital letters: capitals in pattern 1 are used at the beginning of a sentence
an in names. So it's "The Desolation" and "The Ancient of Stones" (Talenel)
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AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebondButwherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricity
TheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthlessCanwecraftaweapon
- From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first
TherehastobeananswerWhatistheanswerStopTheParshendiOneofthemYestheyarethemissingpiecePushfortheAlethi
todestroythemoutrightbeforethisoneobtainstheirpowerItwillformabridge
- From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: Paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the second
AhabersiewurdenzurückgelassenDurchdiebeschaffenheitderverbindungistesoffensichtilichAberwowowoBetonungOffensichtlich
ErkenntniswiediewärmederwintersonneSiesindbeidenShinWirmüsseneinsfindenSchaffenwireseinenUnwahrenzubenutzen
Könnenwireinewaffeschmieden
EsmusseineantwortgebenWasistdieantwort?HalteDieParshendiaufEinervonihnenJasiesinddasfehlendegliedDrängedieAlethisie
sofortzuzerstörenbevordiesereineihremachterlangt.Siewirdeinebrückebilden.
There's a rather sloppy translation to German. As you see, the lenght of the messages differs even more. Had I used synonyms, again different lenghts would have resulted...
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Additionally, the translations from Taravangians language to Alethi to English could result in the different lenghts of the messages from
Floorboard 17, Paragraph 2.
The possibility to encode the translated text in every other language hints to a letter to number substitution and not something like a word to number or syllable to number encryption. Although that would be possible, it would be quite complicated to perform.
Also a mapping to text positions would make a hard time for translators.
Grammar of languages could also be a problem, so that word mappings would yield grammatical nonesense.
I think there is a mapping (plaintext string) -->(ciphertext string of digits) without the neccessity to work on the whole translated book.
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While the forum was down I had some time to read. In Taravangians interlude it gets clear that the diagram consists of sketches, strings of numbers and many lines written in Taravangian's invented script. The key to this script was carved into the bedside table by Taravangian himself, so that the diagram could be deciphered. Notations in the books then are in Alethi woman-script.
So, obviously we cannot assume that every epigraph has been coded the same way as our Code.
The questions that arise are: Why did T. write something in plaintext (in his invented script, for more precise language) and other stuff coded as a number. What did he want to hide, why did he want to hide it, whom did he want to hide it from?
Answers to these questions - or probable guesses - could help with decoding.
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Not enough to build a key off of, I think. All we really have are Kaladin's tatoos, some noble house glyph pairs, and to a limited extent the essence/surge glyphs.
For the same reasons that Navani's notebook uses English words written with Alethi letters, I think the code is ultimately based in English as well.
Right, I'm getting inconsistent. Arguments against Alethi letters apply of course also to glyphs.
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@ Emmi:
Nice summary. It contains lot of stuff, that occured during substituting numbers to letters - especially the "101112". But, with letters I didn't come along.
I am quite sure, that repetitions of number series are not random. At least the longer ones. They could represent words, without forming them via letters.
Palindromes is a new idea - i think nobody in this thread has had it before. It's worth looking into!
What about Palindromes representing glyphs? Glyphs are symmetrical, I think and we have some glyphs written/drawn in the book.
The third appearance of 101112 is overlapping with the first 1112341.
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I think we should try both: looking in WoR for hints - though I have absolutely no idea what to look for,
and additionally trying to crack the code as self contained.
Still it could be a mapping code. The greatest problem is, that we have just a string of numbers.
Reading it first I was reminded of a pavillion in China which I visited years ago: There was Pi (3.1415....) written under the roof
in many circles beginning in the center of the ceiling and spiralling outward.
Since it is confirmed to be a code, this can be dropped ;-)
Though...the string of numbers is called "Pattern 15" - well a string is no pattern, at least not a nice one...
Tyn's correspondence:
Shallan frowned, inspecting the sheets. In each one, the first words came from the remote writer. [...]Tyn replied simply each time.
"They form groups of five," Pattern said."Quintets, the letters. Mmm. Each message follows a pattern- first three words start with one each of three of the quintet of letters. Tyns reply, the two that match."
Sender: "I think some information I have today will work"
Shallan: "But you said that last time"
This gives us one quintet: ITSBY
Unfortunately the other correspondences via spanreed are not complete, so there is no more information to be dug out.
So that's probably a dead end. I try to apply that to the other epigraphs - without knowing how it can help to crack the code...
They will come you cannot... TWCYC
One danger in deploying such... ODIDS
Ah but they were left ABTWL
Q:For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of Preservation FWEMW or FWETE
Q:What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant and WCMTC
You must become king. Of everything YMBKO
The Unmade are a deviation, ... TUAAD
There is one you will watch.... TIOYW
Obviously they are fools. The Desolation... OTAFT
[ "code" ]
But who is the wanderer... BWITW
One is most certainly a... OIMCA
Chaos in Alethkar is, of... CIAIO
[Dates]
There has to be an... THTBAWell, I think this doesn't bring us anywhere. But also failure is a progress. You know what it is NOT...
1 -
Well... my first half of Way of Kings in French came out... today. (Though it hasn't arrived yet.) I don't know if the second half has a release date yet even. So, for Words of Radiance... could be a while.
In German they exist since 2011. So perhaps the first translations will be out quite soon. But: we got the information, that we have everything to crack the code. So there is no hunt for pieces of code on book signings - which would be difficult to attend to for Europeans. Let's crack it!
0 -
The code "as it is" is attached with all necessary files. Out of
fearrespect I have removed the actual text of tWoK/WoR that was used to build up tables.What the script does is systematically split the code into prefix codes (still prefix, I am afraid. I may change this in the evening), assigns letters to the codes and tries to solve substitution. If the first several decoded symbols form words as found in text, it outputs the dcoded string and writes down details in file.
To run it, just run "python codecheck.py", it takes no arguments.
Thank you, I'll give it some tries.
@Travis1984: I think the Stormfather is only written in bold letters, when he is angry, which is quite often the case.
@Yalb: Let's look, how pattern did it in the book...will be back later.
And another idea obtained in sleep: The code is from the 2nd ceiling rotation. Where did they begin transscribing it?
What happens, if one writes the numbers in a circle?
0 -
I am really curious, how this could will look like in translated books...
But hopefully, we'll have solved this until then.
0
WoR Chapter 84 code
in Stormlight Archive
Posted · Edited by Pattern
Since I seem to be off-shift, I try a summary.
11182510111271249151210101114102151171121011121713
44831110715142541434109161491493412122541010125
1271015191011123412551152512157551112341011129151
21061534
2nd Ceiling Rotation, Pattern 15
is confirmed to be a code, the key is in the book. Translators will get an instruction to encode the translated text. Peter said „The code is solvable and you all have the information required.“
Ciphertext string consists of 154=2*7*11 numbers. Patterns (2x77, 11x14, 7x22 and transposed possible)
There are no blanks and the parsing of the code is still unclear
We do not know the encryption method. We have tried prefix codes and non-prefix splitting, attempting for substitution cipher.
Some attempt to match it to other Diagram epigraphs was made by AhoyMatey, without much success.
Krenn also did some matching to chapters counting words, based on a decomposition where a 10 followed by a 111 meant a line break.
Appearance of „111“ or "10111" is suspicous.
Frequency Analysis is consistent with the code being some kind of substitution cipher without smearing frequencies.
Since Vorin numerals are now known, there would have been no problem parsing the code given in Vorin numerals, since for example „1“ „1“ would look different than „11“.
Since every "0" is preceded by a "1", one could consider the code consisting of the numbers 1-10.
This would not be enough to encrypt an alphabet in a bijective manner.
2 epigraphs from part 5 resulted from an interweaved message. The two obtained messages however differ in lenght, which could be due to translation from Taravangian's invented language to Alethi or English.
This code could also be interweaved, so we would get two messages consisting of 77 digits each. Parsing is still a problem..
We do not know which alphabet has been coded to numbers. It could be Latin, Alethi, Thaylen (though less probable, since only known via Frostland map and possibly incomplete) or phonetical.
Most probable still is an English text, since other epigraphs use letters (c,x,q), which don't exist in Alethibet.
The key could be found anywhere in the book, but preferably in epigraphs concerning the Diagram or the fictional book „Words of Radiance“, Taravangian interlude, Ketek on Navani's notebook.
Part 5 epigraphs:
They will come you cannot stop their oaths look for those who survive when they should not that pattern will be your clue
- From the Diagram, Coda of the Northwest Bottom Corner: paragraph 3
One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situtions of powerful stress unless you accept consequences of their potential Investiture.
- From the Diagram, Floorboard 27: paragraph 6
AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebondButwherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricity
TheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthlessCanwecraftaweapon
- From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first
Q: For what essential must we strive? A: The essential of preservation, to shelter a seeds of humanity through the coming storm
Q: What cost must we bear? A: The cost is irrelevant. Mankind must survive. Our burden is that of the species, and all other considerations are but dust by comparison.
- From the Diagram, Catechism of the Back of the Flowered Painting: paragraph 1
You must become king. Of Everything.
- From the Diagram, Tenets of Instruction, Back of the Footboard: paragraph 1
The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however.
- From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 14
There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction. Deviation. Kingship. We must discuss the nature of kingship.
- From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 15
Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia
- From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1
11182510111271249151210101114102151171121011121713
44831110715142541434109161491493412122541010125
1271015191011123412551152512157551112341011129151
21061534
- From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 15
But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it?
- From the Diagram, West Wall Psalm of Wonders: paragraph 8
(Notew by Adrotagia: Could this refer to Mraize?)
One is most certainly a traitor to the others
- From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 27
Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.
- From the Diagram, Writings upon the Bedstand Lamp: paragraph 4
(Adrotagia’s 3rd translation from the original hieroglyphics)
1173090605 1173090801 1173090901 1173091001
1173091004 1173100105 1173100205 1173100401
1173100603 1173100804
- From the Diagram, North Wall Coda, Windowsill region: paragraph 2
(This appears to be a sequence of dates, but their relevance is as yet unknown)
TherehastobeananswerWhatistheanswerStopTheParshendiOneofthemYestheyarethemissingpiecePushfortheAlethito
destroythemoutrightbeforethisoneobtainstheirpowerItwillformabridge
- From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: Paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the second
Words of Radiance epigraphs, sorted:
But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4
And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan’Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such a patronage
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 5, page 17
As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the realm of the spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 6, page 2
And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiants, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, “capricious, frustrating, unreliable,” as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be the most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty or oddity.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 7, page 1
They also, when they had settled their ruling in the nature of each bond’s placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would by necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbours.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 8, page 6
Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally included to explanation; and in the case of Corberon’s disagreements, their silence was not a sign of an exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 11, page 6
Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 12, page 12
Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat’elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 13, page 1
But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment to Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14
And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably “Dustbringers,” often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word “Voidbringers”. They also did exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, although to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 17, page 11
When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancer, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 20, page 12
Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10
These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10
There came also sixteen of the order of the Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3
So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18
In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for this execution of one of their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy’s baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 32, page 17
Twenty-three cohorts followed behind, that came from the contributions of the King of Makabakam, for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9
Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced; namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6
That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6
This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine
- From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20
In the epigraphs there is also Pattern 1, 2nd Ceiling Rotation given. This should be related to Pattern 15. It is still unclear, why those passages are called „pattern“.
There have been suggestions to crack the code like Pattern did with Tyn's correspondence with the Ghostbloods. That was a dead end, since it was only an authentication method and only one example is given explicitly.
The code contains palindromes, quite long ones. Too long to be random:
111825
-101112-71249-151-2-10-101114-10-2-151-17112-101112-
1713448311107-151-4254-14341-09-161-49-1-49-341-212-254-10101-2512710
-151-9-101112-34-12-5511-52512157-5511-12-34-101112-9-151-
21061534
Holy Vorin names are Palindromes as are the names of the Silver Kingdoms.
Also, Keteks are palindromes consisting of words. Especially the not perfect symmetric middle of the long palindrome could be just a word in the middle of a Ketek.
Glyphs are also symmetric and have been encoded to a symmetric number string.
Harakeke has made enormous progress in decyphering glyphs.
It has been noted, that „h“ can stand for every other letter (like in „Nohadon“). So could the 7 in his code. Palindromes would get longer doing this.
Considering the details in the book (mirrored Alethi script on Shallan's drawing, shining through from the other side of paper), farfetched ideas shouldn't be abandoned without trying.
The key to the code could also be found in Navani's Ketek
Since Pattern's name is a string of numbers and he would need numbers to describe his state before bonding, the Code might have something to do with Cryptics. (Would be nice wordplay...encrypted epigraph containing information about the Cryptics)
Epigraph from Ch.86 „One is almost certainly a traitor to the others“ led to the suggestion to remove the 1s from the code. Unclear, whether it was tried in substitution cracker or not.
16 unique palindromes in the code could be Cosmere significant.
Codes could be related to calendar system – has to be tried explicitly.
@ Satsuoni: Since you have to copy this to your first post, I will leave out your links concerning deciphering tools.
Feel free to add them where you think they fit in best.
Additions:
- We compared the code to date format and found that the code doesn't seem to consist of dates
- The dates in North Wall Coda, Windowsill region: paragraph 2 seem to be Highstorm dates
- Parsing suggestions using palindromes: here
- similar codes in another book and their cracking:here
(I try to modify the c-programs there to fit to our problem -but have to refresh my c knowledge first
if someone is fitter here's what I plan to do: Use a palindrome-respecting parsing | assign letters to numbers|
try rot-x-program and vigenere program with WoR related keys (KnightsRadiant, Everstorm, whatever...))