Pattern

Actually, Nightblood consumes Investiture, any form of Investiture - and while doing that, reduces the amount of Investiture in the Cosmere at a very slow rate.

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Interview: Dec 12th, 2015

Barnes & Noble Orem

Question

So, is Nightblood reducing the amount of Investiture in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. At a very slow rate, but yes.

Edit: I found another WoB contradicting this one, so we are left with some uncertainty: (Spoiler tags for length)

There definitely is a similarity, but recent WoBs pointed more to the importance of belief. Spren seem to become what people believe them to be. So when the size of a flamespren is measured and the size is recorded, the recording is the manifestation that the person who wrote down the number believes in that measured size. In consequence the spren locks at that measured size. Additionally the written numbers could be used to convince other people that the spren has that size, so it is even more "captured".

On 13.3.2017 at 2:45 PM, 8bitBob said:

The reason I like this interpretation is because it removes any associated "role" for different things in this process. Neither Investiture is a "key" or "lock" but rather two things that have rules on how they can interact. It removes any need for a soul to be involved too, which explains why two Feruchemists can store in the same Metalmind because the Investiture doesn't interact.

I would be careful to draw this conclusion, since a soul is Investiture:

I guess the attributes stored by two identity-blank Feruchemists would just add up (superimpose) in a metalmind, the different souls involved being temporarily indistinguishable. This would be analogous to the which-way-problem in quantum mechanics, where interference between two paths can only occur as long as it it unknown which path actually is taken.

So when the Investiture knows which soul stored them, they won't interact.

Well, I have already seen other threads using the assumption that unkeyed metalminds can be burned by any misting to create other hacks. So until we see anything that definitely says that this is not possible (new WoB or The Last Metal) I will go with that, contradicting every time would be a waste of time. The assumption is at least easy and likely enough to do so.

Brandon will be quite near in two weeks (500 km), perhaps I can shuffle free some time to go to the reading/signing events to put in one or two questions. Chances are bad I will make it, though. We'll se...

First an answer to @8bitBob

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On 8.3.2017 at 5:54 PM, 8bitBob said:

On 8.3.2017 at 8:38 AM, Pattern said:

The " Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." also would have to be discarded.

It's not being discarded, Spiritual connection is just assumed to be Identity here as it matches the description of Identity as stated by VenDell in BoM, as I have said a few times now. It fits into my theory, and I have explained why the word Identity would not have been used pre BoM before.

I have argumented several times now, why this cannot be used to support your theory - which arguments you just don't accept and wiggle around. Saying several times that it does, does not make it so. So I repeat one last time

This WoB

can be summarized: "A misting (what Miles is as soon as his feruchemical power is stolen) can compound his old metalmind, because it has his Identity." Unfortunately the "because" is missing in the WoB. I imply it from context, you threw phrases like "correlation does not imply causation" - in a rather condescending way. So Brandon would have been intentionally misleading. Usually he RAFOs, if he doesn't want to tell something (he even does it in the end of this quote). So I take the "Spiritual Connection" - which probably is just another term for Identity - as the reason for the compounding to work. As we all agreed, you don't need to access a metalmind to compound, so no feruchemical ability should be needed for compounding. So this does not contradict that a ferring who got his power ripped away cannot access his metalminds anymore. He would not have the ability anymore. A twinborn who still had allomancy after getting ripped away feruchemy could still burn the metalmind and would get power from it (actually from Preservation filtered through the metalmind), if the metalmind is charged with his feruchemical charge.  

To the tangent of resonances:

Ok, I am convinced, compounding is a hack, not a resonance. As are the medallions:

Defining a hack as a clever way of (ab)using the magic system. Some tangent to Biochromatic Breath:

So I guess the main topic is exhausted, we get more and more to other tangents. Though interesting, this won't really help the thread. I agree that it is a plausible scenario that a misting can burn an unkeyed metalmind to get access to the stored feruchemical attribute, though that would degrade the spiritual attribute of Identity to a mere key to one's feruchemical charges. To like that or not is a matter of taste, I feel this would be an anticlimactic solution for the mysterious spiritual attribute(s).

"The Lost Metal" hopefully will give us more insight to that.

@SpoolofwhoolWhere is it confirmed that TLR is not having resonances?

I think the memory ability enhances lightweaving a lot, so I wouldn't say it has no effect on the surges.

@8bitBob Yes, Wax's abilities interfering with separate metals yield a resonance. Now you don't really want to tell me that this would not be the case if the metals did coincide, like it is with Miles. There is some resonance at work, if resonance is a real thing.

We know that there are types of Investiture which are linked to Identity and others not. Need to look up the WoB, that could take a while though. Biochromatic Breath should be in the "Investiture with Identity" category, "Me Breath to Yours" comes to mind there. Stealing breath after all is not possible.

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's speaking about the way two powers interact within an individual to create some extra effect. I don't believe it applies to what you are trying to use it for. 

Exactly. Two types of Investiture within an individual (having an Identity) lead to resonances. Compounding is the kind of resonance happening for a X-X Twinborn (X denoting any allomantic/feruchemical metal). Twinborn with two different metals have more subtle resonances.

I used the video on YouTube from the Boskone reading of the Oathbringer prologue to update the transcription made by /u/RyanEl on Reddit, @Kanrei and @jofwu, since @jofwu said he lacked the motivation after transcribing the Interlude. Also I transcribed Brandon's recent introduction and replaced the old one. The reading in Boskone didn't cover the whole prologue, since there wasn't enough time, I will mark in the transcription where it ends.

A little remark to the Condensation of shardblades: That explanation is physically just wrong. Condensation (resublimation, strictly speaking) is an exothermic process since atoms/molecules get bound and the binding energy is released to the environment. Also the entropy is reduced, since a condensed (resublimated) state has more order than the gas phase (less possible states to occupy). Even in extreme regions of the phase diagram this does not change. Condensation/resublimation stays exothermic.

Additionally, while discarding the shardblade (with endothermic condensation at summoning), there should be a release of heat as this would be the reverse process.

Let's just wait for some realmatic explanation, physics clearly doesn't work here.

So the experiment crucis would be to give a medallion to an non-Scadrian and see whether it still worked or not - or ask Brandon about that. My proposition would be:

Scadrian sDNA (with parts of Ruin and Preservation) + Investiture stored in nicrosilmind => Abililty available from which Investiture is stored in nicrosilmind.

It is really a nice research of different WoBs and quotes from the books, much more supporting than the original two WoBs. Your theory is definitely plausible, but to call the alternative flimsy is a bit too confident on your side. You do extend what we have seen so far, so you add something unconfirmed, strictly speaking.

The thing bothering me is that in your theory Identity is just a lock to someone's feruchemical charges. An unkeyed charge in a metalmind is treated the same as a charge keyed to the ferring/twinborn. Nothing so far contradicts this. It does make the spiritual attribute Identity kind of cheap, though. The " Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." also would have to be discarded.

I don't want to create another wall of text to address every point you wrote. Just one thing:

17 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Note, this is exactly the same steps as allomancy. At no point is it stated that the twinborn taps the metalmind during this process. Rather, the Investiture just needs to interact with each other to alter how the magic is shaped.

17 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Allomancer Investiture is filtered through the metamind. Because there is no Identity interference preventing them from mixing, the feruchemical Investiture present in the metalmind also shapes the effect of the magic.

1. ) You propose that Identity blocks Investitures from mixing.
2.) I propose that Identity enables different types of Investitures to interfere with each other: Investitures can only interfere if they fit to the same sDNA.

We only know so far that Investiture with another Identity cannot be accessed by a Feruchemist (supporting 1, but not contradicting 2) and we only have seen Compounding with Identity matches (supporting 2, but not contradicting 1), so both propositions are the same kind of stretch, both not really far stretches.

Your proposition would mean that an unkeyed metalmind could be compounded by a misting, my proposition would mean that this would not work, since the Identity neccessary for interference would be missing in an unkeyed metalmind. Access by another Fering would work, since there is no mixing of Investitures involved.

Mixing/Interference of Investitures is to be understood as an interaction of different powers, here Allomancy and Feruchemy. In the Ars Arcanum from BoM it is hinted that the mixing of different types of Investiture has curious effects.

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The effects here are more subtle that they are when mixing Surges in Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers ... and an effect. This demands further study.

- Ars Arcanum, BoM

To put my bit to this discussion: Assume we have an unkeyed nicrosilmind, filled with Investiture - the abililty to burn metals or tap metalminds as the kandra decribe it. This is obviously not the cosmere definition of Investiture, but it should describe what the feruchemical does correctly. Otherwise VenDell would deliberately give us misinformation.

What we know from old WoBs (I am really bad at finding them) is that every Scadrian carries pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them, since they created humanity on Scadrial together.

My part of theorizing:

Those pieces in the sDNA might be enough to give access to an unkeyed filled nicrosilmind which acts like an amplifier for the stored ability, so the person becomes a fering in that ability. The ability to draw and tap from an unkeyed nicrosilmind would be inherited from Preservation and Ruin. This possibility is also there for any other unkeyed metalmind, but the person could not use the power, because there is not enough of Preservation and Ruin in the sDNA (otherwise the person would already be a Misting, Mistborn, Fering or Feruchemist) . This would make nicrosil not really different from the other metals, just the fact that Investiture is stored in it instead of e.g weight. This stored Investiture (more of Preservation?)) in combination with the sDNA from Ruin and Preservation would be enough to get access to the magic.

Question is, would that nicrosilmind run out of Investiture as it is used or is it just the presence of more Investiture together with the bits in the sDNA that is enabling the ability but no Investiture is drawn from the nicrosilmind while using that ability?

If no Investiture were drawn from the nicrosilmind, it would not even be necessary for the person to draw from the nicrosilmind. The presence of sDNA from Preservation and Ruin together with the stored unkeyed Investiture would somehow merge in the spiritweb and this would be enough to make the person a misting.

Taking off the Medallion would also take away the additional Investiture from the spiritweb so the person becomes "unmagical" again.

The problem I see here is: Why is physical contact necessary, if location is of no import in the Spiritual Realm? Wearing a Medallion for a long time should yield permanent effects, which we are not shown so far.

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Sorry, can you run by your reasoning as to why feruchemical power is needed to compound when it sounds like you don't even need to access the feruchemical power to compound?

Ok, I interpret this question as why Feruchemical ability is needed to access feruchemical power to compound. Upon thinking about it again, the ability should not be necessary to get f-power out of f-charged, unkeyed metalminds while burning them allomantically.

Compounding, though, I interpret to be a bit more. You get the power out of the metal magnified (somewhere it is said tenfold), use some as you see fit and use the excess to refill another metalmind, so you get basically limitless f-charge. The limiting resource is the availability of the metal. To do this, you need not only be able to get f-power out of the metalmind, but also the ability to fill a metalmind - which is Feruchemical ability. 

This should be possible for anyone with Terris blood, according to VenDell - but again, be careful, he might be exaggerating.

The Southern Medallions consist of a combination of two or even three unkeyed metalminds, one of them I think being an unkeyed nicrosilmind with stored Investiture, giving anyone who wears them the corresponding ability, depending on with what it is filled. I didn't find a really convincing theory (convincing for me) on creating the Medallions and their working mechanism, but what they effectively do seems clear: They grant anyone who wears them one or more feruchemical abilities. So with them, also a southern allomancer (very rare) would be able to compound.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

1. A feruchemically charged price of metal can be burned in the near impossible scenario where you've lost your feruchemical ability, and thus a allomancer should be able to burn an unkeyed metalmind, or

Change "unkeyed" to "keyed to himself".

An allomancer with a trace of Terris blood is supposed to be able to use an unkeyed metalmind, if VenDell is correct. So being an allomancer this should also allow him to compound since the feruchemical properties are the same as if the metalmind were keyed to himself. He should be able to compound then, except something else prevents this.

This isn't implied by the 2 WoBs we were discussing above though, but by information from BoM - which might come from an unreliable narrator. I would guess though that those theories from VenDell are not so far off, so we all get a teaser for technological advance in the last book of era 2 and in era 3. Southern Medallions probably will give a boost in development of Allotechemy (Allomancy + technology + Feruchemy).

@The One Who Connects No reason to be sad, I forgot to explain that particular line which you understood correctly. Not (A OR B ) is equivalent to (Not A) AND (Not B), according to DeMorgans laws.

The Logical puzzle is just logic, using boolean algebra on the statements. "Implies" is not the same as equals. Every statement can take the values "true" and "false".

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I disagree with the idea that you can burn the metal and not gain any power.

My statement is: IF you burn metal AND no power is obtained, THEN it can only be from burning the unkeyed metalmind. This explicitly does not mean, that burning an unkeyed metalmind yields no power! That would be incorrect logic. Even the fact that burning metal has to give some form of power (because the burning is the result of accessing power) does not make the statement untrue: the boolean variable (Burn metal and no power obtained) then has the value (false) and from false anything can be implied.

I see that my try in logical deduction led to more confusion than it helped, sorry for that.

Clarifications for the logic part: "Misting is not burning unkeyed metalmind" means "Misting is burning keyed to self" OR "Misting is burning keyed to another". Ok, I try to write this again with words for better understanding, can't guarantee it will get better. WoBs gives us:

IF a Misting burns a metalmind keyed to himself, THEN he will get Feruchemical Power (A => FP)
IF a Misting burns a metalmind keyed to another, THEN he will get Allomantical Power, the Feruchemical charge is destroyed in the process (C => AP)

I tried to come to a conclusion B => XYZ, but was not successful.

In the next step I used Transposition(logic) (p => q) <=> (!q => !p) [in words: "IF p is true THEN q is true" is equivalent to "IF q is false, THEN p is false"

!(B) = A or C means that the statement "Misting does not burn unkeyed metalmind (AND Misting burns some metalmind, as in assumption)" is the same as the statement "Misting burns metalmind keyed to self (A) OR Misting burns metalmind keyed to another". This implies from WoBs (bold statements): Feruchemical Power is released OR Allomantic Power is released.

Using Transposition on that expression yields the final line.
Addition due to @The One Who Connects answer:

(! B = A OR C  => FP OR AP ) (Transposition) <=> (! (FP OR AP) = !(!B ) = B

(! (FP OR AP) = !FP  AND !AP is obtained via De Morgan's Theorem, !(!B ) = B is double negation.

The last line in words is

IF a misting burns metal (assumtion) AND no power (not FP and not AP) is obtained, THEN the misting burns an unkeyed metalmind. (!AP AND !FP) => B
That however does not say, that this can occur. It is perfectly possible, that burning metal and obtaining no power is impossible (except aluminium gnats, which we excluded).

One could try to deduce something without the assumption that something is burnt at all, but that would probably allow even less conclusions. I hope the "logic puzzle" in words is better comprehendable, though the result is still a non-result. It doesn't allow me to draw the kind of conclusion I wanted to be able to draw. That done,
I claim to have to cognitive power of CONFUSION...more of that can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxes_of_material_implication and related pages ;-)

Meanwhile sitting on the train I dug into VenDell. The kandra are experimenting. If the information VenDell gives is correct, it means that nearly any Northern Scadrian (everybody with a bit of Terris blood) could use an unkeyed metalmind. BAM. That would also include our misting we want to be able to compound. So the burned metal would give the F-power. I leave the credibility of VenDell to you, he is trying to convince Wax to go on a treasure hunt after all and might be exaggerating (though I don't believe he is, just that it could be).

@8bitBob I am fairly certain that our interpretations of Identity are the same or nearly the same. I got the impression that you misunderstood me. @The One Who Connects elaborated my point of view much better than I am able to.

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INTERVIEW: Jun 20th, 2009

Idaho Falls Signing Report - Andrew the Great

Mistborn Questions:

ANDREW THE GREAT

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

I feel free to reuse your quote. The last two sentences are making the quote ambiguous again. Probably in 2009 the concept of unkeyed metalminds was not an issue. The question still is: Do you need Identity (spiritual connection) to access the feruchemical charge or is it sufficient to have an unkeyed metalmind to allomantically release the feruchemical charge (so it's not blocked). For Feruchemists it's just the lack of Identity-lock that is sufficient, but is it also for an Allomancer? It's probably the easiest solution to say "Yes, as long as something is not blocked, it's available". The easiest solution is not always the right one, though.

Once again I am brought back to hypothetical Miles who would be able to use the healing power stored in the goldmind - and now I reformulate it to post BoM terminology - because the charge was stored with his Identity. The fact that the f-charge was stored with his Identity is given as the reason for the described mechanism to work.

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BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.

Storing an attribute in a metalmind without putting aside one's Identity into another metalmind would create some kind of Spiritual connection between Feruchemist and metalmind (not to be confused with the feruchemical power Connection).

So lets apply some logic and see where it leads us. Problem is, a feruchemical charge can have three states so lets define three statements

A: Misting burns F-charge keyed to himself.

B: Misting burns unkeyed F-charge.

C: Misting burns F-charge keyed to another person.

FP: Feruchemical Power is set free

AP: Allomantical Power is set free

Assume a Misting IS burning a metalmind (leave out aluminium). ! denotes logical NOT; <=> is equivalency, => denotes implication

(A => FP)   <=>  (!FP =>!A)                                       bold: statements from WoBs
(C => AP)    <=>  (!AP => !C)

(! B = A OR C  => FP OR AP )

<=> (! (FP OR AP) = !FP  AND !AP => !(!B ) = B

So if you see a Misting burning a metalmind without effects, he must be burning an unkeyed metalmind. That however does NOT say, that burning an unkeyed metalmind does give no effect. Feel free to play around with this a bit more, my time today is running out unfortunately ;-(

1 hour ago, 8bitBob said:

Again, this would still ultimately be Identity being the difference between granting an ability or not, which is the definition of an enabler. So far as we understand, the only difference between this situation and an unkeyed metalmind being burned is Identity, and nothing we've learned about ferumancy would suggest that it could have this effect. While not impossible, it's certainly not directly supported by anything discussed so far.

Yes, this whole theory is speculation based on a confirmation of a different, but very similar situation, but it is supported by information learned in later books and our current understanding of the related concepts. It is not confirmation that it works, but it is certainly supported and plausible.

That's working under the assumption that allo-feru compounding requires tapping, which is not a given. Based on everything we know about allomancy and compounding, it's entirely possible (and likely based on these WoB, in my opinion) that burning a metalmind alters the result of the magic, which is still accomplished with allomancy. This fits in with the WoB metaphor of metals telling the Investiture what to do. This is speculation though.

Identity is the difference between being able to use the charge or not: A keyed metalmind cannot be used by another ferring lacking the right Identity. An unkeyed metalmind can be used by any fering. It would be an elegant symmetry if you could use the keyed charge yourself even if you didn't have the ability at that time (anymore). You had the ability before, so the Identity doesn't give you an ability itself but the charge which has a spiritual connection to you still works for you. This spiritual connection is used as an explanation for the examples to work, so we shouldn't just ignore it and treat unkeyed metalminds the same as keyed.

Here a WoB about the metalmind altering the magic (Spoiler tags for space)

"The other place" is obviously the Spiritual Realm - or on Sel the Cognitive Realm. Here again both powers are needed for the compounding to work. Though it's ambiguous, not treating the possibility of unkeyed metalminds that could be burned. So here might be an indication that above theory might actually work (not what I intended to work out, but there it is). IF the compounded metalmind alone determines that the power of Feruchemy is boosted from the SR, then it would be possible to access that power from burning an unkeyed metalmind.

Classical compounding is feruchemy fuelled by allomancy, there is WoB

to be a way to use compounding the other way around, to fuel Allomancy using stored feruchemical attributes. Burning an unkeyed metalmind and obtaining the f-power could be this. It still does not feel balanced though. The misting is lacking the sDNA to use the f-power in any controlled way. The misting could control the release of f-charge by controlling the burning rate but there being only 3 (?) burning rates makes it clumsy, the best.

2 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

After the spike is removed, it is confirmed that the Coinshot can still burn the metalmind for speed. At this point he completely lacks the ferring sDNA and will not be getting it back, but is still able to use their allomancy for ferumancy. How do you explain this? You're treating Spiritual Identity as some sort of enabler for ferumancy, but it's really more of a doorman choosing who gets in. Having the right Identity does not make the Coinshot a Steelrunner.

This is explicit confirmation that you do not require feruchemical powers to burn a metalmind. I do not see how that is not related to the theory at hand.

Ok, here we have confirmation that an allomancer burning a feruchemical charged metal will be releasing the f-charge and not the a-charge. But can he use it always? Here it works with the allomancers Identity (remember, he himself charged the metal without storing his Identity away). The reason for this to work could still be the charge recognizing the allomancer as his owner.

And no, I was not treating Identity an an enabler for Feruchemy, just as an explanation why the charge goes back to its owner, lacking the ability. I could reply that you are treating an unkeyed f-charge as an enabler to Feruchemy - at least to tapping. Which I think is not possible, and the above example cannot be taken as a confirmation for that theory, since there is the loophole with Identity. In both the gold and steel examples. I don't say it is impossible either (I only think that it doesn't work, not improbable that I am wrong there), just that the example does not fit. The preconditions don't fit to allow any logical conclusions.

Both scenarios say that an allomancer burning a metalmind with his identity gets the feruchemical power stored in it (x10 or so). Nothing less and nothing more.

Ah nice, you found some of the WoBs I was looking for and couldn't find. Summarizing: Spikes steal part of the soul. Damage can be healed by patches of Investiture (which is not so different from gaining abilities, where Investiture leaks into holes in the soul). My recollection of the soul staying unharmed in the SR as a blueprint could not be confirmed. If and how you heal (with healing ability) is a matter of how you contemplate yourself to be whole, so it's a cognitive thing. Its not the same as the spiritual Identity, though the concept is similar. Your Identity should stay the same, whatever happes to you (except you're storing Identity in a metal mind - that redirects it), while your Cognitive Self is how you think of yourself, if that makes sense.

What we asked was whether an allomancer can use the released feruchemical charge while burning an unkeyed metalmind. The Miles scenario was answered with "Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." Here a keyed metalmind was used, stored with Miles health. Miles is missing sDNA corresponding to his f-gold, but he is still "Miles" and thinks of himself as this. Also the spiritual Identity of Miles should not have changed just because he lost part of his soul. The ideal is still the same. So the charge being burned recognizes him as the rightful owner and heals him, patching his sDNA back with a new part of soul - because that is the way he sees himself as healthy and his stored health flows there where it belongs (in the scenario Miles was even burning f-gold while being spiked, so the process of releasing health was ongoing and didn't have to be started without feruchemical abilities). It's an interesting scenario in itself, but the more I think about it, the less appliable it is to our original theory. It's an example of quite the opposite we are theorizing about.

The point is, a misting without being a twinborn, would not have the feruchemical ability granted by an unkeyed charge. Not anyone can use unkeyed metalminds, but any fering with that metal or a feruchemist (who are really rare in era 2). Thats's the idea of compounding: You fuel feruchemy with allomancy. You need to have the feruchemical power to do this. Identity just keys stored powers to the person having stored it, more or less a protection from theft. You can create unkeyed metalminds on purpose, they can be used by any feruchemist, but they don't grant feruchemical abilities by themselves. To achieve this, you would need to use Southern Medallions or the BoM, granting the ability temporarily.

About Vin: You're right, I hadn't that particular scene in mind. This scene still does not imply that Vin would have been able to use the Investiture (I really have to search the books, unfortunately not as ebook...) if it were unkeyed. But, if she burns it as a normal allomantic metal, it shows us that you would at least get the allomantic effect when burning an unkeyed metalmind and not just a puff of hot air.

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

For Miles to be able to burn his metalminds after losing his Feruchemical ability would need to have a specific in system reason that doesn't apply to unkeyed metalminds, or they should be allomantically viable. 

The in-system reason is that Miles metalminds were filled with and keyed to him via his Identity, the charge recognising Miles while it was released. The burning was already on while Miles was being spiked, so the keyed health  could flow back to where it belonged. This would not apply to unkeyed metalminds.

Unclear is, if the burning being in progress while Miles is spiked (in that hypothetical scenario) is relevant or not.

In the Alloy of Law, Miles also allomantically burns gold. Either he has uncharged metal or he is able to select which kind of power he gets from burning gold. Again, have to look up some more about compounding...

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

If feruchemical ability and a spiritual link to the charge is required, than why would Vin even be able to sense The charge in Sazed's metalmind? If the charge were unkeyed, and she were still unable to access it without the prerequisite feruchemical ability, why is she even aware it exists?

In the example of Miles, having lost his Feruchemical ability, the charge being keyed to him shouldn't matter at all, unless all that is required is the ability to burn gold. If more than identity is involved, any spiritual link in the charge would have been tied to the portion of his sDNA that was ripped out. How can a spiritual link exist to a part of his spirit web that he no longer has? 

1.)  Vin is able to sense the charges just from the fact that she can push on the metalminds only with difficulty, since they are filled with Investiture. And anything filled with Investiture is hard to influence.

2.) I don't think that is how spiritual links work at all. In the spiritual realm Miles would still be in his perfect state without damage - compare with healing of shardblade wounds. The healing itself is a cognitive process while the blueprint to be healed from is found in the spirit web in the spiritual realm. IIrc, someone who is killed with Hemalurgy stays only for a very short time in Shadesmar, but his soul in the Spiritual Realm will be whole. (Will edit this post later after some WoB research)

Relevant WoBs:

Will have to find the explanation on Reddit...later

Actually, if above theory is correct, any misting could become a compounding twinborn with the right medallion. The compounded feruchemical charge can be stored in an unkeyed medallion, which could be disassembled to burn the metal with charge again. It's a bit clumsy but with industrial mass production in mind, that procedure could become easy and common knowledge.

The only limitation here is the availability of the metals - which should become much scarcer after a while. Wars for resources come to my mind and are not unheard of - just to speculate a bit more.

But still, the mechanism of allomantically burning feruchemically charged unkeyed metals could still just have the same effect as burning normal metal, since the spiritual connection to the charge would be missing. The charge would be there but could not be used since the feruchemical ability is missing. I need to look up some WoBs on compounding, but if i recall correctly, burning a metalmind releases only the f. charge tenfold. So the poor misting burning an unkeyed metalmind wouldn't even sense the f charge since he is no feruchemist AND he would not get any allomantic power. Could be he gets nothing but an angry stomach...

Oh one thing to that WoB: It is in regard to a very special hypothetical situation where the f charged metal is burned after the f ability has been spiked out hemalurgically (and the former twinborn still lives) He would be able to burn the gold charged with his own health to heal himself - because the charge has still connection to him. The connection is the reason for this to work. An unkeyed metalmind lacks exactly this connection so it would be useless in that special situation. Spitual connection then would have not been neccessary to explain the possible healing.

Edit 2: I would not equate spiritual connection with identity. Even if someone fills an unkeyed metalmind (while storing his identity in another one) there still could be a Connection to that charge. It would just be usable by anyone. Doesn't matter that the WoB is pre BoM, Brandon had his magic ready, probably before the release of The Final Empire.

The WoB above is not quite appliable to the theory in the beginning. The described scenario in the WoB has a filled metalmind with identity(connection) attached to the user who burns it. So Miles would be able to use the stored healing because it is still connected to him. If he were burning a goldmind without his identity (connection to him), it could be that he would be able to use the charge, or not. We just don't know.

Actually, there are some hacks to feruchemy, allomancy, hemalurgy and compounding out there, which were probably not intended the way they turned out to be, making the combinations very (too) powerful. I am really curious how Brandon will fix that with some limitations in future books, since all powerful magics are not really his thing (refering to his writing classes at BYU). There still is room for this, since we got a lot of information from more or less unreliable narrators with incomplete knowledge of the magic system and WoBs are not 100% canon either, until they are written in a released book.

In this frame of reference, I would bet on the theory above is not working, since it would make the magic too powerful. So I guess, an allomancer burning his metal with an unlocked feruchemical charge will just get the same as an allomancer burning that metal without charge, as long as he doen't own the feruchemical abitily as well. Wearing a medallion might change that though, since all passengers on the skimmer were able to store weight, regardless of allomantic/feruchemical abilities.

I am quite sure he will read in English, otherwise it would be a reading from a translated book. That would be much less interesting than a reading from Oathbringer or perhaps Snapshot. But that could be only me, thirsting for more snippets from Oathbringer.

Brandon was at the Leipzig book fair on Friday, March 24th and Saturday 25th.

There were three readings, three Q & A and four signings, which gave us some opportunities for interesting questions, and we got some meaty WoBs.
All announced transcriptions are there now. Big thanks to all of you who went to the signing lines and asked those interesting questions, and special thanks to @She Who Cannot Be Named and @mr42 for transcribing!

Saturday morning: Q+A during the event and signing afterwards (no writing tipps) (transcribed by @She Who Cannot Be Named)

Saturday afternoon: (transcribed by @mr42)

4 hours ago, jofwu said:

Huh, great points all around.

Seems odd to me that they're aware they have a gemheart. Parshendi don't seem like the sort of people to dissect their dead, and how else would they know?

Well, that we can only can speculate about, since we don't know what it feels like to have a gemheart. Parshendi should be able to know about their gemhearts without dissecting corpses, what they most definitely don't do, anyway: Parshendi are after all able to see spren leaking from the cognitive realm to the physical realm, so when they trap/invite a spren to their gemheart, they should be able to see/feel where the spren goes to. As long as they are not in slave-form (Parshmen), capturing a spren should be something instinctive to do. After all that's what they are doing since prehistory on Roshar (See the Song of Listeners:)

Quote

The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We cant't provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.

From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza

From "betrayed" I conclude that there was a (natural) symbiosis of spren and Parshendi, even before humanity came to Roshar. The closeness of their minds to the cognitive realm giving them their froms plus the information from the Oathbringer prologue makes me think, that Parshendi are aware of where their spren stays after capturing it. "Though broth are we, their meat is men." implies (for me) that the symbiosis of spren and Parshendi is something basic, perhaps just the Parshendi giving the spren a place to stay on the physical realm like it's done in fabrials (though that's more like enslavement of spren), getting their form in return, while we know that the Nahel bond provides sapience for spren (in the physical realm) and access to surges for the human.
There is more, if one considers the forms of power, which were shunned by the free Parshendi, and the possibility to bend the surges of men to the surges of Parshendi, but that would go too far here.

An explanation for the Parshendi not to touch their dead could be: In early history, Parshendi looted and disected killed enemies (tribal wars, etc.) to get to their gemhearts (compare to historical cannibalism in Polynesia, where enemies were eaten to get the strenght from the killed enemy). This practice being "a bit" messy could have led to a taboo in touching the dead at all, to prevent such atrocities.