GroundPetrel

That part hit me personally. My dad tries really hard to help me feel better, and weirdly that sometimes makes me hate myself more because he's trying so damn hard and here I am still freaking hating myself all day. Honestly, Kaladin's something else. In his situation I would've thrown myself off the tower already. Hell, I would've jumped into the chasm in TWOK.

These are absolutely amazing! I love the Inquisitor, that's really creative work with the nails!

I first read this one years ago, and upon rereading it recently...it's a first draft. The flaws are pretty obvious (magic system hinders rather than helps the story long-term, protagonist is not terribly deep, there are a couple of in-universe jokes that come off as edgy and are not called out by anyone), but honestly, there's a lot to like. "Ruin" (or "Autonomy"? Role is more like reverse-Ruin but would probably be more like Autonomy in Intent) being good and "Preservation" evil is something that I think would resonate better now than when this was written. Proto-Breeze has a lot of opportunity for exploration and depth, though the slow pacing means we don't see much of that. Ix is genuinely hilarious and I love everything he says. 10/10, best comic relief character from any Sanderson book, makes The Lopen look bland. Mr. GLORIOUS REBELLION is also very funny but with enough depth to humanize him and make him likable. I get a lot of death flags from him but honestly he deserves to live and eventually come to see his dream come to pass, and help it in some way (just not as the charismatic leader). Sarn, while a complete monster with no redeeming features...is honestly a pretty good villain. He kind of reminds me of Fire Lord Ozai from Avatar: The Last Airbender; a cruel, petty, abusive man, likely with severe antisocial personality disorder, who by simple quirk of birth is in a position to do unspeakable evil, and happily does so. He works well within this caste system (with its mix of proto-Alethkar and proto-Final Empire elements) than he would in a setting like the Final Empire, which feels more about the insane totalitarianism that Rashek set up making monsters out of everybody. Sometimes, you don't need a nuanced villain, you don't need a "was only bad because of complicated backstory stuff that drove him to insane rage" thing like with Ruin, sometimes you just need a complete unapologetic dirtbag who knows exactly what he is and doesn't give a rat's behind. (I see elements of Sadeas in Sarn, but Sadeas is a lot more self-deluding from his POV bits) Corollary to that, this caste system's proto-Alethkar elements are somewhat more appealing to me than the proto-Final Empire elements. Vevinn, IIRC. He actually reminded me of a mix of Adolin (likes unconventional women, bit of a playboy reputation, young hotshot type, son of important guy, great fighter) and Dalinar (famed tactician, not clued in to the struggles of the underclass unless it's specifically brought to his attention and even then has a hard time getting around to "society is a mess and needs immediate reform").

I initially DNFed Oathbringer because Kaladin's struggles were such a gut-punch. (that's not a bad thing, it just hit me hard) In ROW, I think that Kaladin's depressive narration dragged on a little bit longer than it absolutely had to, but little stuff like Adolin taking him out for drinks hit a lot harder in a good way.

Institutionalized slavery, militaristic imperialism and jingoism, the hardest and cruelest class divide we've seen in the series. No other mortal state we've seen on Roshar is quite so aggressively nasty as a society. XD now THAT would be crazy but awesome! Or awesome but crazy.

Kelsier is only a hero because the Lord Ruler is so freaking bad and his regime is insanely sadistic and totalitarian. He's not that different from Miles Hundredlives, and on Roshar he'd be much closer to Moash than Kaladin. (since even the nastiest society on Roshar, namely Alethkar, is orders of magnitude less evil than the Final Empire, Kelsier's more sociopathic tendencies would stick out a lot more. And I never thought I'd prefer blatantly imperialistic warmongering chauvanistic slavers to anyone, but somehow, the Lord Ruler manages to make Leopold II of Belgium look almost kind and good-natured by comparison, and Leopold's henchmen's lesser crimes included literally eating babies) Kelsier isn't a puppy-kicking psycho, he's smart and knows he's not a very good person and does seem to wish he were a better or at least less broken person a couple of times, so there's no way he's going to be cool with Odium winning, even TaravOdium, but if it comes down to Spook's distant family vs. the entire population of Roshar, I bet you my life savings he'd choose some 16th generation descendant of that kid he liked over the millions of people on that windswept barren rock. ...honestly, now that I'm sitting down and thinking about it, Kelsier is such a broken mess, like most other Final Empire-era Scadrians, I almost want him to succeed in whatever his plan is just to see if a Cognitive Shadow messily stapled to a body via Hemalurgy can bond a spren.

Rushu is a lot like my personal experience of ADHD (and gender tbh), I do want more of her. Syl has hints of ADHD but I didn't really connect with her interlude as much in that way.

I think that the Ghostbloods' endgame is not Kelsier's endgame, and that Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow is not able to exercise direct control over their operations. Further, who knows how centuries as a Cognitive Shadow being literally worshipped by two religions that he set up has affected Kelsier's psyche? Also, Kelsier always was an egomaniac motivated by selfish revenge and tribalism, to the point that I distinctly remember a WOB implicitly suggesting that he had been affected somehow by Odium (somebody asked about Odium possibly visiting Scadrial and BS pointed out that Kelsier's hatred of nobles was extreme even by skaa standards, with less personal reason to hate the nobles as opposed to the Lord Ruler). Kelsier's interactions with nobles in Mistborn 1 often come off as a serial killer finding convenient justifications to indulge in his bloodlust; for example, we're introduced to him brutally murdering a noble and his entire manor full of guards for doing something that Dockson later points out happens every day, all across the Final Empire. Not that Tresting doesn't deserve it (he does, even if he is just a cog in the machine), but Kelsier basically just goes in, kills everything that moves other than Tresting's victim, sets the whole place on fire, dumps the girl outside her mom's hut and continues on his merry way. As the skaa elder notes afterwards, he basically forced them to flee and scrape out an even more miserable existence hiding in caves. They were in a horrible situation where every single option was bad, and Kelsier gave them a choice between one of the worse options, and the worst option. He didn't stick around to lend a hand, didn't lead them anywhere, just did some killing and left the skaa to fend for themselves, when they're exhausted and worked to the bone every day and have spent their whole lives on the plantation as slaves. I don't think that the Ghostbloods being bad guys in this way necessarily means that Kelsier is being written out of character. He has a plan, he's justified it to himself with theoretical good things that he thinks will come out of it, and he's perfectly happy to burn people to get away with it.

Kaladin--survives, better than even chance he swears the fifth Ideal. May end up working with Leshwi. Shallan--absorbs Radiant, begins really patching herself up. Dalinar--nearly storms up his oaths but figures it out after a heart to heart with Adolin. Navani--no clue but she makes something really cool. Like a jetpack or something. Or a Shardgun. Adolin: Gets his butt kicked by far more powerful enemies up and down the book, eventually hashes things out with Dalinar, probably awakens Maya near the end with words like "I will never allow you to be forgotten", and then in the post-climax chapters where they're regrouping after the latest world-shattering event he just ducks out and takes her to Kaladin's group therapy. I would call it 40-60 odds against him awakening Maya without the suspected BAM situation with Connection being fixed. Renarin: Is key to the plot somehow. Better than even odds they unscrew the BAM situation and he and Glys are important there. Jasnah: Teams up with the Sebarials and unscrews the legal system some more. I have no evidence to support this as a possible plot thread but it'd be awesome. TaravOdium: Outsmarts himself and becomes a villain ten thousand times worse than Rayse could ever hope to be. High chance he kills or breaks Cultivation and may even take her power for himself, throwing Hoid for a big loop. Whatever he does, everybody's plans are off the rails. Venli: Along with Leshwi, likely openly switches sides in an attempt to stop the war. Becomes a straight up good person as her atonement reaches a climax. Leshwi: Openly defies TaravOdium and probably ends up being teeth-clenched teammates -> vitriolic best-buds with Kaladin. They both are really grouchy about this if it's pointed out. El: Main antagonist of some sort, the introduction in RoW makes it abundantly clear that this is a very important character.

Kelsier the Bondsmith is completely insane, but just insane enough to work as a crack fic.

Whatever happens, I bet it will be soft and gentle and beautiful and will involve Adolin supporting Maya as she regains her mind/sanity. Hopefully there will be a trip to one of Dr. Kaladin's therapy sessions at some point!

Mid-stage Edgedancer Adolin and Full Windrunner Kaladin in a berserk reverse of the duel in WOR vs. a bunch of Odium's top minions? I am so here for that.

You savages just don't understand the value of good fashion! Why, I bet that when you go to prison in protest of injustice, you don't even bathe every morning! ;P (in all seriousness Adolin is my flaming bi dandy of a walking therapy blanket and I love him to pieces)

Science Mom is love, Science Mom is life. I've liked her since she first showed up in TWOK but damn, she really excelled here.

This post actually crystallized some things for me--I don't think I dislike Jasnah so much as I don't really like her. It's neutral rather than negative, though I'm pretty sure I'd actually hate her as a character if she were male because that would remind me of far too many Just Plain Better Than You self-insert characters from bad fanfic (especially since she's introduced from the perspective of a woman who idolizes her and has deep-seated issues of her own). And I did like the hints of past issues that she's been working through. But I'm now quite certain that my "issue" with Jasnah is just that we haven't seen what makes her tick the way we have other characters. It reminds me of how the other characters--especially Adolin, Dalinar, and Kaladin, but also Best Science Mom Navani and even Shallan--see themselves versus how others see them. E.G. Adolin idolizes Dalinar where Dalinar has a much less rosy opinion of himself, Kaladin is a broken wreck inside who's constantly fighting serious mental illness and all but those who are the most intimately close with him generally only see a shining hero descending gloriously from the sky to save the day (it took considerable time for Dalinar to notice Kaladin's worsening PTSD, probably months at least, for example, when Dalinar probably interacts with Kaladin regularly considering that Kaladin's unit are the best bodyguards for Dalinar the living trump card that the coalition has). We mostly see Jasnah from the POVs of others, we don't see her internal struggles to the same degree we do Navani's and Dalinar's and Kaladin's and Shallan's and even Adolin's. Kinda like how in Rick Riordan's YA novels, when you see Percy Jackson from his own POV he's always pretty self-deprecating and complaining about the insane situation he's in, but then when you see him from the POV of other characters they're like, "holy crap this guy is amazing how do I even compare myself to this dude who soloed an evil giant and killed him with a severed stone head after fighting abut two major battles in a day and causing an earthquake and doing a nose-dive off a glacier with no apparent ill effects?" I guess I much prefer to see the inner workings and struggles and impostor syndrome and other foibles of the heroes, especially having the protagonists introduced that way rather than being introduced as total badasses who are Just Plain Better Than You.

I've never been a big Jasnah fan. I don't hate her but I prefer Navani (Science Mom ftw!), Lift, and increasingly Shallan. Not really sure why, in fact I'm not sure if I could place it even with time to think about it. Maybe it's just that she hasn't had as much screentime until recently? But then Lift doesn't have much screen time and she's amazing.

I'm going to have to nitpick this. Dalinar is a ridiculously busy man, dealing with a buttload of trauma and regrets, and has discovered relatively recently that the son who he thought was a stand-up kid (and probably considered to be a better person than himself, at that) murdered a guy in cold blood and kept it secret from Dalinar for weeks, only admitting it when he was about to be given lots of power. This is like calling Lirin the worst father ever for being mad at Kaladin because Kaladin's now a war-hero Radiant. (Lirin isn't a great dad, and I think he's a weak man in his own way, but then I think Dalinar is weak in a very specific way too, which I'll get to in a moment) These men are kind of going through something like what Kaladin did in WoR--unsettled and trying to deal with a whole bunch of new, unexpected things. They're going to stumble and storm up before things get fixed. Also Dalinar has always been a kind of distant father, even after he tried to be a better guy and father after Cultivation pruned him. He also has a tendency to project his own values onto others--he assumed that Sadeas worked in the same fundamental framework and with similar fundamental values right up until Sadeas betrayed him, and he took that extremely personally. He assumed that Adolin was basically a mini-Dalinar even though they're dramatically different people (both in terms of how they are good people and in terms of their way of their self-awareness). E.G. Dalinar doesn't really understand how corrupt and broken Alethi society is on an internal level. He recognizes it consciously but he's just not able to internalize it even when he tries really, really hard and acts like a total sociopath to try to drown out the screams in his flashbacks. Adolin instinctively understands that Alethi society is fundamentally broken on an internal level even if it takes him a while to externalize that, and he has a grade-A chull-dung detector where Dalinar has a tendency to get suckered by people like Sadeas and Amaram and has to work to be more aware of cremlings like those two. (Adolin smelled chull dung on Amaram the moment that worm stepped foot on the Shattered Plains even though his relationship with Kaladin was a hot (probably closeted bisexual) mess at the time; Dalinar had to put Amaram to the test before he could truly believe it, even though he otherwise trusts Kaladin implicitly) And Daliniar doesn't get that Adolin is so fundamentally different from him. So basically Dalinar looked at his son admitting that he murdered Sadeas, and refusing to apologize, and he remembered being the Blackthorn on the battlefield thinking that being honest about being a monster would make the screaming stop, and he thought, Oh storms, my son is becoming me. And he doesn't quite get that no, that's not what Adolin's becoming, Adolin killed Sadeas because he thought of all the lives that Sadeas had ruined and would ruin and recognized that Sadeas needed to be stopped, in that moment, by any means necessary. Dalinar internally glosses over Adolin's guilt over killing Sadeas and never seems to grasp Adolin's fear of holding power because he just doesn't understand how fundamentally internally honest Adolin has always been with himself. (Because Adolin is clearly feeling guilty about murdering a man in a dark corridor in cold blood, and while he knows internally also that Sadeas was a monster who had to be stopped, he does not want to risk becoming somebody who could treat lives with casual disregard) Dalinar is a weak man in this way. He is easily suckered, he has to work at understanding others, he is hard on Adolin because he sees him as a mini-me. Dalinar IMO needs to understand--and I think this is probably going to be a big character moment for him, almost certainly important wrt. his Bondsmith oaths--that he and Adolin are very different people internally, he needs to internalize this. Dalinar grew up in the shadow of a brother he both idolized and resented, a brother who everybody admired but was probably always just a charismatic abusive/manipulative asshole. Adolin grew up protecting and supporting a brother who he loved passionately and who was picked on by everybody. Dalinar developed a longing to be a better man because he couldn't cope with being an asshole and probably a little bit of wishing he could be what he saw in Gavilar. Adolin grew up learning every single slight and petty cruelty heaped upon his brother, learned how to protect and support Renarin, learned people in a way Dalinar never really had to, while watching his father, the Great Man of History he idolized, crumble before his very eyes. He also very clearly had to learn himself as well--I will bet my life savings that there was a moment in Adolin and Renarin's past where Renarin got frustrated at Adolin being overprotective and Adolin had to learn how to let Renarin stand up for himself. So basically they are coming from completely different formative experiences and Dalinar has trouble recognizing that. Does this make Dalinar a terrible father? No. It makes Dalinar...slightly better than Lirin. Which is basically, not terrible, but also emotionally distant and difficult to be the child of. Dalinar is not a horrible person or an evil parent, he's a flawed man who's doing his best to be better every day. Just like Lirin is a flawed man who tries his best (even if he can be storming infuriating). Also I kind of get the feeling that Adolin kind of wants to be his father but also knows that he never can be because they're fundamentally different and might be struggling with that a bit, rereading his bits in WOR. And that's my incoherent word salad of the day. XD

I blame their mother. Also, @Kingsdaughter613 basically hit the nail on the head for Adolin and Maya's arc, but for me, as someone with multiple neurological issues who's in the middle of a depressed misery spiral of epic proportions, Adolin's small kindnesses and supportiveness are what really stuck out for me. Granted he's been this way since TWOK and he really showed it in WOR, but the trial really empathized for me what a storming good person he is. As I said in another thread, Dalinar is the kind of paladin who gives everybody a grand ideal to aspire to. Shallan is the paladin who gives hope to the hopeless. Kaladin is the kind of paladin who forges a team into a loyal family. And Adolin is the paladin who comes in at the end of the day when those people are exhausted and worn out and about to break and gives them all a big loving hug, then goes back to playing with the developmentally delayed kid he spent most of the day hugging and entertaining. (which is why I firmly believe in Edgedancer!Adolin, at that)

Adolin and Maya's interactions at the trial are literally everything I hoped for. Adolin continues to be an absolutely wonderful, supportive, altruistic person at exactly the right time for the right reasons, and I love it. My mind was blown by Taravangian becoming Odium. I have absolutely no idea where the heck he'll go from here. I am a MASSIVE Navani fan and loved that she got the chance to really shine this time.

The absolute best part of that entire little plot thread was Sigzil going "hey, Kaladin, has he filled out the forms so the bureaucracy knows he's gay?" and Kaladin briefly going protective papa wolf before he figured out that it was a cultural quirk and not homophobia he was dealing with. I laughed so hard I cried. THAT is how you do comedy about somebody's sexuality in a non-harmful manner. I definitely read Jasnah as a lesbian initially, but that's largely colored by my own preconceptions of what a medieval-fantasy society would look like before BS got into the worldbuilding and it became clear that homosexuality is much more tolerated on Roshar than on Earth. I don't have anything against her being ace and heteroromantic, but I've never really been as much into Jasnah as a character anyway for some reason (much prefer Navani the Science Mom, I'm a sucker for unusual romances like "two world-weary older people come together" anyway), so I obviously can't speak to the disappointment of those who are much more invested in her. Adolin meanwhile (since you brought him up) reads to me as obviously bisexual and lowkey into Kaladin. His fascination with Kaladin in WOR doesn't read as 100% "my grade-A chull-dung detector went off to a truly historic degree when you said you walked off a fight with the Assassin in White", it reads more as "this annoying frustrating bossy hot guy waltzed into my life and my dad likes him and he's acting in a way that I do not regularly experience with respect to me (just like that awesome Shallan chick who wants to know how I crap in my magic armor!) and he's brave to a fault and his men love him and he's competent and a total badass and I find myself thinking about him a lot and why is he so irritating it's not like I'm in love with the guy!" But maybe that's just because I read too much tropey fanfic, lol.

Lirin is a bad father, a bit of a coward, and deeply traumatized. He isn't malicious. He isn't hateful. He's just a weak man dealing with overwhelming emotions very badly. That's my take anyway.

I actually think this is the #1 reason he's going to be an Edgedancer. He chose her even when repeatedly offered something far better, stuck with her when he was on trial and the honorspren tried to use her against him, has stuck with her even as pretty much everybody else has written her off as a sad case, what a tragedy, oh well, nothing we can do. Just like Lift went back to save Gawx, a thief's kid not even valuable enough for his father to go back for, bleeding out on the floor of the Emperor's palace. What a shame, poor kid, nothing to be done. Until the Edgedancer said, "storms no, there IS something to be done, and I'm going to do it, storm the consequences".

So is Dalinar. The thing with Adolin is that he knows damn well he's messed up and his surroundings are messed up, and he doesn't want power or anything like that, he just wants to do what good he can and live his best life every day. He knows he makes mistakes, he owns his mistakes, and he knows that everybody else in the world makes mistakes. (As he says to Kaladin about Amaram, nobody is that clean, it makes him instantly suspicious when somebody is said to be so perfect) This makes him look like a perfect hero, mostly because everybody else either has much more obvious mental health issues or is a worm like Sadeas. But what it is is a kind of fundamental self-honesty and clarity that's honestly really refreshing. Even the man he idolizes as the greatest in the world if not in history, his father, is not clean, and Adolin recognizes that. As he tells Kaladin in WoR, even Dalinar makes bad judgement calls sometimes and otherwise fumbles. And Adolin sees through that to the man beneath, even as he worries for that man's sanity. Adolin isn't the one who forges a team. He isn't the one who gives hope to the hopeless. He isn't the one who provides a grand ideal that can unite armies and nations. He's the guy who goes up to those people when they're starting to waver, gives them a hug, takes them out for a night of drinks, and sits in protest with them because storm society, Kaladin is in the right and Ehlokar is being a pissant.

I would say that, as Szeth pointed out, following the strict letter of the law right into service of a blatantly evil fascist who uses racial tensions to spark conflict and gain power is actually very, very bad. Also Nale is very clearly not sane, even Szeth points it out. Definitely LE, he's basically Roshar's Darth Vader.

That or LE. He's an emotionally abusive selfish dick when push comes to shove.