GroundPetrel

There's always fanfic! Anyway, my personal take on the actual topic of discussion is that I've never seen BS write a character just to be a Token X. Even when he was less experienced, female and minority characters all had depth and compelling personalities. (though I do want to see a novella about Two Lost Windrunner Squires And A Baby King, that would be fun)

I am still holding on to the hope that Shallan will decide that what she really needs is a harem. Or, well, different men for different personalities. And then invite Kaladin into the relationship. We already have WOB that Adolin would be chill with this, after all. XD Dalinar would probably be like "Son, what in Honor's name...where is your honor? Your sense of duty to your wife?" etc. etc. more honor and duty than a Klingon lecturing his son on proper Klingon values. Then Navani would elbow him aside before the shouting match gets too loud, hug Adolin, tell him she's happy for everybody involved, and then pull Dalinar into another room for a stern lecture. Kaladin would try to run away. Shallan would pull him back. It would end up as happy as you can get between two people with severe mental health issues and a Well Done, Son! Guy in the middle of the apocalypse.

I freely admit that I am absolute trash for Adolin Kholin the over-dramatic supportive flamboyantly and obviously bi dandy, Dalinar Kholin the old-fashioned but Trying Very Hard dad, and Navani Kholin the good mom. I am sure that I haven't come anywhere near to whatever we actually end up getting, which I am 100% certain will result in minds exploding.

I'm here for that, too! Or Adolin decides that he's going to pay for the best restaurant available during the apocalypse, and he will personally monitor the service to make sure it's the best (because Adolin Kholin's brother deserves the absolute very best, storm it), and Renarin and Rlain spend the whole time politely ignoring the incredibly obvious dork making sure that literally everything is absolutely perfect from the next room. Or Shallan distracts Adolin with a fake mission with her and Kaladin, but one of the bad guys kidnaps them or something so they end up having a dramatic adventure and sleeping in a cave together and they stumble back through the Oathgate the next morning battered and bruised with Adolin wearing a rust-eating grin and Kaladin refusing to speak of what happened and Dalinar and Navani are like "WTF were the kids doing?" and Dalinar is like "well at least Renarin can do this courting thing right, now to be Very Tolerant of his extremely unusual choice of date" and Navani is like "you do that, Dalinar, I need to talk to your other kid" and Shallan makes Adolin stay tight-lipped for Kaladin's sake. Or Bridge 4 decide to do the cooking and so Numuhukuakiaki'aialunamor gives them something specifically designed and served so that they have to share it in a super romantic way and Sigzil takes notes on Alethi and listener courting traditions from an unobtrusive spot in the corner and Kaladin comes looking for his men and ends up apologizing for interrupting the date but Renarin says that honestly it's not that big a deal and really, Highmarshal, you should try dating yourself, it's good to have somebody in addition to a spren to share your troubles with, and Syl materializes to agree emphatically and Kaladin flushes red as a beet. Or...look, I'm here for literally any lightly comedic soft gay softness. It's been a storming terrible couple of years and I just want these poor screwed-up characters to be happy.

That deserves screentime. I need some "Living therapy blanket Adolin Kholin is unhesitatingly supportive of his brother and does exactly enough to help Renarin prepare for his first date so as to not be overwhelming while still making it a night to remember" in my life. Then again I need an Adolin Kholin in my life to give me a bigass hug and tell me that all this storming gender nonsense will end up OK every night. So I may be biased.

I'm down with this, that makes perfect sense!

That's fair. It's a shame, I was really looking forward to a singer Windrunner. Me, I just think it's great how Riordan is using his status and reputation to put increasingly overt social liberalism into his books. First it was "btw America is racist" in the Egyptian books, then "yeah uh these kids have PTSD" and "hey you remember America's centuries-long history of awful bigotry?" in the Roman books, and then "LGBT kids are way overrepresented among homeless people", etc. Even though I'm a dirty anarchist, I do enjoy a good case of weaponized privilege.

I think it would be interesting if Adolin--the one who's normally supportive when others break--gives too much of himself, as it were, and in healing Maya becomes in need of healing himself, so they form a bond that's weird and awkward and soft and gentle and build around mutual support. I'm thinking of that beautiful pic on the Coppermind of Plate-armored Adolin hugging deadeyed Maya, and my thought process is, what happens when Adolin gets the rust kicked out of him trying to shield Maya? Especially since Adolin is the normal healthy supportive one so he's the one who if he cracks will ironically be most likely to be overlooked (kinda like the old "sibling of the special needs kid" set of issues, where the special-needs kid has so many issues that dominate attention that the sibling's issues get overlooked--my brother and I are still dealing with some issues left over from him being the sibling and me being the special needs kid when we were younger). (also Adolin literally has a special-needs brother who he grew up taking care of, I think that he's a lot more cracked inside than he lets on)

??? The protagonist of the Apollo books is literally pansexual and implicitly genderfluid. One of that character's male/male romantic relationships is explicitly an inextricably tied into the plot. That's not exactly tokenism or box-checking. I'm honestly kinda surprised that Rlain didn't fit more into Bridge Four, Kaladin and the others seemed to have fully embraced him by the end of Words of Radiance.

I actually don't read Renarin as autistic-spectrum, he comes off more as OCD maybe with mild ADHD and poor socialization as a child, probably with tardive dyskinesia or epilepsy to go with. ...I actually liked those books. I do think that Renarin and Rlain both deserve significantly more time dedicated to them, but it's nice IMO to see the supporting characters developed a bit and having their own lives. This doesn't come off to me (grab bag of neurological issues, definitely some kind of queer though I'm still sorting out that gender thing) as tokenism, like when JJ Abrams had two extras kiss in the background to get woke points even though his movie was regressive crap, or an attempt to excuse a less than PC storyline (like everything Steve Moffat has ever written). It's just two guys in the background who are a thing. Would love to see them take the foreground for a bit though. Fully expect that to happen in 6-10.

So these are some half-formed thoughts I've been thinking through and I'm trying to get this down. I think that each radiant order has one or two ways of heroically inspiring others, and I don't really mean just the Ideals. For example: Dalinar (Bondsmith) -- provides grand ideal that others aspire to, working to better themselves to reach said ideal. Jasnah (Elsecaller) -- "Society is unfair, I am changing it, argue with me at your peril"; targets structural inequalities of society, giving others the chance to dream. Kaladin (Windrunner) -- builds team out of the dregs of the warcamps, forging a unit bound together by choice. Shallan (Lightweaver) -- gives people the opportunity to dare to dream, the opportunity to dare themselves to be better. Lift (Edgedancer) -- even outside of refusing to give up on those others have, gives Nale a hug because she knows instinctively that he needs one. Adolin (not Radiant, unusual bond with Edgedancer-affiliated spren, others state that he would make a great Radiant) -- gives support to the above, especially Kaladin and Shallan, when they need it. I suspect that each Order is basically manifesting two aspects of the traditional chivalric knight-errant, or the D&D paladin; e.g. Windrunners defend the weak and work as a team, Bondsmiths are a shining ideal for others and build grand coalitions, Lightweavers support personal growth and fight for truth, Elsecallers are all about fairness and responsibility, Edgedancers do small but essential-for-mental-health supportive acts and dramatic support for individuals who have been specifically wronged or abandoned. Taken together all of them are necessary for revitalizing a state or social system. Adolin and Lift are basically rich people who dump a million bucks on a kid with cancer's GoFundMe or pay for the legal team for somebody who got taken advantage of by a crooked but connected businessman, Jasnah is the leftist philosopher writing academic articles about how society is unequal and how to fix it, Kaladin is the community activist building both a community advocacy group and an intersectional alliance of such groups to promote the rights of disadvantaged people, Shallan is the counselor going in to help kids in prison who don't see any good options, Dalinar is a high-level official working on internal and international political support for world peace and human rights, etc. All of them are basically filling the gaps for at least one of the others so that none of them have to be perfect. This idea might be a bit of a reach but I it.

I'm here for Dabbid the Windrunner myself but I'm just a fan of the Windrunners in general.

I mean, it's not like Adolin had a perfect life. He lost his mother fairly young, and the father he idolizes was first distant, then a drunk disaster, and then a viral joke to the Alethi elite. Just going by timelines, he clearly spent a good chunk of his childhood and adolescence protecting Renarin from every awful thing the Alethi elite were capable of saying and doing, and he almost certainly had to do that while also doing what Man Of The House things Alethkar has to do (and finding someone to do the traditionally female tasks, too, since his mother was dead, he was a notorious bachelor who according to WOB is afraid of romantic relationships (which I believe is due to his subconscious's extremely clear picture of Alethi court society), his aunt was busy being the greatest scientist on Roshar, and his cousin was busy pissing off the establishment). In other words, Adolin was forced to grow up fast and his formative years consisted of a bucket of cold water being repeatedly dumped down his back until he gained a level of clear-sightedness that only the Sebarials have about the society he inhabits. That's not exactly an easy childhood, and it definitely left some cracks. You don't have to be a walking DSM-V entry to have had trauma or to have lingering resentments/issues that affect your mental state.

Still pulling for Shallan as Riker! (because I'm a Shallan/Adolin shipper...and a Kaladin/Adolin shipper...and a Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin shipper...and a Kaladin/happiness shipper...I have a problem) Though less of a jerk obviously. Shallan wouldn't be mean to Barclay. Also Kaladin has a lot of grouchy warrior stoic traits that would go well with Worf, IMO. Oh and when I suggested MeLaan as Wesley, I meant that MeLaan is basically a walking self-insert fanfic of herself, which I adore, and so she'd be what Roddenberry intended Wesley to be (the character who everybody loves just like the creator does because of how cheerfully awesome they are). For DS9: Sazed/Harmony - Captain Sisko, a man of incredible self-control but boundless power, who once punched Q in the face for being an asshole. Vin - Kira Nerys Elend? or TenSoon? - Odo Turi Sebarial - Quark, and unapologetic about it. Spook - Nog (local street kid makes good) Siri? or Sarene??? - Ezri Dax (Marasi or MeLaan could also probably be the Jadzia lol) Renarin? or Raoden? - Bashir Hrathen? or Venli? - Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor Sadeas - Gul Dukat, walking barrel of ooze the Lord Ruler - "Female" Founder Leshwi - Third Remata'klan (from the episode Rocks and Shoals) Wayne??? - Jake Sisko (I would also have Aesudan be Janeway, but that's just because Janeway is so inconsistently written she commits multiple counts of treason and war crimes and the mostly-male writers tried desperately to cast these as good things because they were afraid that writing a female character with actual flaws that get called out by other characters would get them accused of sexism)

All the old Treks (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and the Show That Shall Not Be Named) are on Netflix now actually. I rewatched all of DS9 while waiting for ROW to be released lol. Go ahead! To everybody else on this thread: I am very sorry for the lengthy derail!

Good idea, this should be its own thread at this point lol. There is some brief Bashir hitting on Dax early on, probably because the studio execs wanted to reassure the Moral Guardians (TM) of Bashir's sexuality after the writers and actors had Bashir and Garak be the gayest gays this side of your local Pride parade, but I don't really recall anything romantic between Sisko and Kira. They develop a platonic rapport and become close friends but that's about it.

Gavinor is absolutely Molly O'Brien! Have you seen how indescribably cute she is??? Jake would be...hmm. Wayne, maybe? PTSD and a degree of pacifism? Kira and Sisko, together? Never officially, and rarely if ever in fandom. Odo loves Kira desperately for several seasons then she finds out and falls for him, then end the series by going long-distance. (They reunite in various non-canon material like the novelverse and the Star Trek MMO, though) That's why I'm saying Elend could be Odo, too, as Odo's a kindhearted defector from his totalitarian jerk species who seeks to further justice.

"Sequence" would be a decent Lore, too, I think. And I'm still pulling for Nightblood as Spot and Kaladin as Worf. Not sure how well Lift would do as Dr. Crusher, they share very little in personality. Also not sold on Navani as O'Brien...BUT! Dalinar as O'Brien (dark past, dependable family man, somewhat set in his ways), Navani as Keiko (gentle and supportive mom, scientist, teacher, and general awesome person). I am really pulling now for Shallan as Riker, XD. Just because of Adolin as Troi. For the Enterprise I'm thinking the Fourth Bridge. Now bringing in DS9: Sisko - Sazed/Harmony (normally quiet and parental but capable of tremendous badassery when necessary, educated and intelligent, usually very self-controlled, strong morals) Odo - TenSoon or Elend Kira - Vin Quark - Sebarial Nog - Spook Jadzia Dax - actually Navani could do her too, but also Marasi would be decent IMO. Ezri Dax - Marasi would do fine here, same with Siri or Sarene. Bashir - Raoden or Renarin Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor - Hrathen, or maybe Venli. Gul Dukat - Sadeas or maaaaaaaybe Amaram "Female" Founder - Rashek/the Lord Ruler Third Remata'klan (from Rocks and Shoals) - Leshwi

Picard is usually the stiff ass who stands for the establishment, especially in early seasons (and he was willing to let a planet die because Prime Directive until Data forced him to listen to a little girl beg for help). He has a lot in common with Dalinar that way. Azure would make a decent Tasha Yar, good point! MeLaan could be a Riker but the thing is she's essentially living her life as a fanfic of herself, and Wesley is basically Gene Roddenberry's fanfic of himself. So MeLaan is the Wesley, but likable. re: Kal and Adolin and Shallan--how about Adolin and Shallan as Riker and Troi, but she's the Riker and he's the Troi? Troi has some one-off romances, too, almost as many as Riker. I still like Kal the honor-bound emotionally constipated gruff badass as Worf the honor-bound emotionally constipated gruff badass. :/ What about Jasnah as Data? Intelligent, hyper-moral, badass, emotionally closed-off? And as a devoted DS9 buff I'm now considering who would be who on that show LOL. XD

Would he really dislike Dalinar that much? He didn't like Elend very much, but when he sees just how far Dalinar was willing to go for the bridgemen, he might be at least grudgingly respectful. Can totally see Jasnah as the Picard too though! Kaladin is the grouchy badass and the therapist at the same time, hence Worf and Troi. Adolin for Riker because he's a young handsome slightly-less-badass flirt with a string of short-lived relationships behind him. I can see elements of Troi in him too, you've got a good point. Lirin would definitely be Dr. Pulaski! My reasoning for Navani as Crusher is because I had Dalinar in the Picard role, honestly. Azure would be a...decent Riker? But I think that Adolin's flamboyance and personality are perfect for a less dickish Riker (Adolin would never be a jerk to Barclay). Steris would be a great Data! Good one. Szeth would be a weird but hypothetically workable choice too IMO. Nightblood could be Spot. Especially if Szeth is Data. Tasha Yar...um...Veil maybe? (RIP)

MeLaan would be Wesley Crusher except that we'd all still love her anyway. "Screw it, I'm going to be a walking fanfic of myself" is an absolutely fantastic character concept. Dalinar would be Picard. Adolin would be Riker but less of a jerk. Navani would be Dr. Crusher and Geordie LaForge at the same time. Kaladin would be Mr. Worf and Counselor Troi at the same time. Hoid would be Guinan. As for Data...I'm thinking Nightblood. Sazed would be the Q who temporarily depowers Q that one time.

I don't really think he cultivates things for their own sake, though, he grooms people to serve his interests and needs. I'm still thinking Autonomy is the best fit. ...that said, QSier would be a freaking riot.

I dunno, Ambition doesn't seem to define him as much as his free-spiritedness. He's ambitious, sure, but he seems to like one-upping more powerful people more than becoming powerful. Also can't see him with Cultivation or Dominion. Kelsier with Whimsy would basically be Q from Star Trek but more of a jerk. Possibly worse than Odium, depending on your perspective. XD

Honestly, I think that Autonomy is the only Shard Kelsier would voluntarily take up.

Oh, now that's a good one. That also fits with Kelsier's "I know what's good for you better than you do" traits and remarkable ability to be a smug asshole. (also, "I stole a god's power and found a way to force a more powerful god to accept it while being little more than a disembodied spirit who occasionally awkwardly staples himself to a physical body" is very much a thing that Kelsier would loooooooove to brag about, right alongside "I was temporarily a god and quit in part because I didn't like it, also I started two religions, one of them to spite a self-declared god and one of them just because I could, and personally mentored the woman who killed a god and a dude claiming to be a god, and also I have a galactic spy network that is running rings around nearly everybody including at least one other god") I'm pretty sure there's a WOB that Miles Hundredlives is essentially Kelsier but the system he's fighting is merely ineffective and parochial rather than insanely evil. Need to double-check Arcanum and Coppermind.