GroundPetrel

I suspect that Rayse was always a red herring (albeit one with an interesting take on fascism as his gimmick) and that Todium is going to be the "final boss" of the whole cosmere storyline. I could be way off-base though.

He did that because Sadeas repeatedly stated his intent to continue betraying Dalinar at every possible opportunity, knowing that this risked humanity itself, purely because Sadeas wanted power + screwing over Dalinar that storming much. Adolin spent months at least with that cremling deliberately trying to piss him off even after the Tower battle, and didn't make a single aggressive move outside of Dalinar's carefully-constructed plan to trap Sadeas. Honestly, I think that murdering Sadeas was justified in that case, Sadeas was more than happy to put his personal power and his personal meaningless victory over Dalinar, ahead of the future of his entire species.

I bet he literally just grabbed a mistwraith and did it kandra style. That would explain how he still has his scars in the vision. They're part of his Identity at this point so I bet the Investiture would transfer them over. Kelsier is awesome, but Dalinar doesn't just wish he's a better person, he makes active strides towards it. Kelsier clearly knows he's a bad guy, but he likes running cons too much to really change, at least not as rapidly as Dalinar is capable of doing. I don't hate Kelsier though. Hell, his current gang is mostly targeting absolute scum. A cowardly asshole who abandoned humanity and started/leads a religious fundamentalist secret society of genocidal imperialists; Literally Amaram; an imperialist religious fanatic domestic abuser...these are all prime Kelsier targets. Rich important assholes who really have some comeuppance coming. Jasnah is an exception but even she is casual with some people's lives at times, especially early on. As I mentioned above I don't think he killed a sapient person to get that body. And the Ghostbloods, while they do some bad things (like Kelsier does), are also clearly iconoclastic and actively interested in screwing the Vorin establishment, which I can get behind and definitely matches Kelsier's "eat the rich" MO.

That's what Ruin is for, though. Ruin is all about entropy--inimical to civilization but essential to life. Odium is about hate, though--Ruin is dangerous, but essential, Odium is just plain dangerous.

Actually I think that Sazed's reluctance to be a god makes him the perfect god. He doesn't let it go to his head. Sazed-onalsium would be a pretty chill god overall, although maybe leaving something as inherently dangerous as the literal essence of hatred out of the collection and just sequestering it might be better overall. Probably spiritually/philosophically a bad idea but from a practical POV that power and Intent seem to be just straight-up bad.

A lot of the protagonists seem to have moments of fitting multiple orders. Kaladin forges his team using a lot of emotional supportiveness stuff like Lift displays when she does things like hugging Nale--he even offers Gaz of all people some soup and he hates Gaz. Szeth is...Szeth is a wildcard and I still don't understand how his Skybreaker stuff is working because he really should not be anywhere NEAR surgebinding powers, much less Nightblood. Adolin shows signs of Dustbringer and Stoneward traits at points in OB and ROW, but his defining moments are very Edgedancery--sort of like how Kaladin's defining moments are painfully Windrunner. Adolin's key moments are stuff like: "Hey, bridgeman, go tell this senior officer that I'll be late to a meeting because I nearly provoked a civil war over a prostitute who I'm now making sure gets home safe, here's a tip in advance" "Here's a Shardblade, Renarin, you can be a badass like me too now." "I know you're 'just' a magic sword, but I'm going to treat you with outsized respect and reverence because I feel something as beautiful, ancient, and deadly as a Shardblade deserves it" "Storm propriety, this guy saved my life and Amaram is clearly hiding something anyway" "Wait, my sword is actually a person who's been written off as a sad case of incurable disability? Storms, that's terrible! Come on, sword-lady, I'll keep you safe, stick close, you're going to be OK..." "Oh Almighty I'm gonna die that thing is 50 feet tall and made of solid rock and I have no armor and it's going after me oh Almighty--crap, there might be a kid in danger, gotta double back and save them." "Shallan, I want to marry you, not your cool alter egos...I mean, if you still want me and not the obviously better super-cool flying moody tall dark and handsome badass over there...honestly I wouldn't blame you at all if you picked him, he's awesome." "OK, you prissy bastards are going to write my whole species off? Put me on trial, then. Only, Maya comes with me. We're a package deal." "Maya, take my strength, don't let these prissy bastards use you and speak for you! You can do it!" All of that is "taking care of some random nobody at significant personal expense" or "emotional support". All stuff that Lift does in her big character moments. Anyway, I think your theory is interesting, but I think that if anyone takes up all three shards, it'll be Sazed after Kelsier/Thaidakar goes and pulls some absolutely insane shenanigans to trick him into doing so. After all...where do you go after you helped kill God once and were a god for a bit and started two religions for yourself? Tricking another god into becoming more gods is a decent next step.

"OK, so if you want to be awesome, think about not being sticky! Being sticky is not awesome, being fast is awesome. So think about going fast and not being sticky, and you'll be awesome like me!" "Uh, OK...AUGH!" *Adolin goes flying off with no friction at all and careens off of a ledge* "NOT THAT AWESOME!!!" *Kaladin swoops in to save Adolin*

It might be something like constant superimposition of the cognitive realm over his Physical vision? That could actually be a huge tactical advantage too. With an accompanying weakness of being super vulnerable to stuff that hits at the Cognitive realm, or needing constant Investiture input to live sorta like a Returned? LOL yeah Lift would do that but also Adolin would take her seriously and be super respectful which would probably mystify her. XD

That would be pretty cool. How would that even work, though? Maybe a roundabout way of becoming like Lift? (honestly I think Adolin and Lift would be best friends, lol. He'd actively help her in her attempts to steal his food, she'd act put out about this, they team up to give Kaladin a hug or something. XD)

I can understand that perspective, but at the same time, I want there to be eventual payoff for his arc caring for Maya. Actually, even stupider idea: Adolin goes to the Nightwatcher trying to get the Nightwatcher to heal Maya, and offers to take the curse on himself.

The fact that I'm gonna be 42 before this is done blows my mind almost as much as anything in ROW, honestly. I have no idea how somebody can be so focused on getting one idea so right for so long. XD

I agree with the first 2 sentences, but honestly, I'm enjoying the insane complexity XD. The more gets revealed the more I'm enjoying just how in medias res we joined the narrative.

Ah! You mean the sudden Stormlight boost. I'll have to reread Lift's chapter in WOR to double-check if she gets more than a Surge unlock then.

I see a lot of overprotectiveness to the point of being borderline stifling in Dalinar's treatment of Renarin early on. He gets Renarin Plate, not a blade (that's what Adolin does), he prefers to keep Renarin safe at home rather than getting him experience in the field or with the ardents, he is more distant of a father to Renarin than even to Adolin. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think that Dalinar's relationship with Renarin is at least initially far too much of a protective one, vis as vis Adolin's more supportive one, and that plus natural dad instincts means that Dalinar is likely to be the wrong kind of caring in this case. (by the wrong kind of caring, I basically mean that he'll go in meaning well but will only frustrate and upset Renarin who might chafe under Dalinar's perceived smothering/chains. That's something that happens a lot to special needs kids, especially with parents who aren't super on the ball; Dalinar's better than some, but Adolin and Renarin are definitely not as well-adjusted as they appear, and what they do have is 100% due to their mom who was very clearly the best parent in the series and possibly in all of the cosmere to date and yes I'm including Navani because she's a great mom but even she has flaws in that regard) EDIT: I say the above as a person (haha gender is a massive pain in the butt) with several neurological disorders including ADHD, OCD, Tourette's, and possibly an ASD. My brother and I are still repairing the shattered remains of our relationship seven years after I left for college. He punched me in the face two years ago because I was afraid of the gender and sexuality issues I've been dealing with and snapped at him when he tried to push while we were walking home from the store, that's how tense things are between us that when he tries to help it can devolve into fistfighting.

The way I see it, Renarin has/had a massive crush on Kaladin. Who wouldn't? Kaladin is a tall charming moody badass with good looks and buckets of charisma, no baby gay would be able to be in his presence without swooning a bit. Frankly I'm surprised he isn't beating the women off with a stick, too, though that could just be him not noticing/people assuming he's taken/the apocalypse in progress distracting people. But as you point out, you can't build a stable relationship off of a celebrity crush.

Not necessarily, it seems to be more that some indigenous cultures had their own classification systems for trans people. They still mostly have binary or binary-plus gender constructs. Lakota, for example, has strongly gendered enclitics to the point that a Lakota rights activist noticed that the actors in Dances with Wolves (which had Lakota language advisors so they were actually pretty accurate with the language) had men using women's enclitics. Also, Native societies could be pretty homophobic. At least one Nahua tlatoani instituted capital punishment for homosexuality (I don't remember which one but he was from the 15th century IIRC) and still had a stable reign. The Tawantinsuyu Sapa Inca Topa Inca Yupanqui allegedly persecuted homosexuals as well; later Sapa Incas are recorded as having done the same). Female homosexuality was also frowned upon in early Joseon Korea, too; a queen got sent into internal exile and shamed for sleeping with her maid. Though, fun historical LGBT facts (spoilered for space): tl;dr LGBT history is freaking weird but also really cool, and some societies were weirdly "advanced" on some issues of gender, sexuality, and sexual rights in ways that our society still isn't today! I reread Words of Radiance instead of doing schoolwork in the month before ROW came out, and let me just say that Renarin's eagerness to please Kaladin can easily be read as a massive storming crush on the smoking hot smolderingly moody badass who personally saved Renarin's father and beloved brother multiple times. (Adolin's relationship with Kaladin is much more the "What do you mean crush, I hate that guy! I hate him so much I spend most of my free time thinking about him!" variety)

He does seem to be working on 1. As for 2, I think Kelsier's endgame is giving as many shards as possible to Sazed and somehow manipulating/forcing Sazed to take them all so that the shards balance each other out enough that Sazed can just go around being a basically good person with divine power without worrying too much about balancing Intents.

*mutters angrily about how Ehlokar is straight-up explicitly shown to be a good dude who cares in his own way about darkeyes' problems at several points as early as TWOK, he's just severely maladjusted from his abusive father and his own knowledge that he's completely unready for leadership* WRT. the actual topic of this thread, I'm honestly just chuckling to myself at the thought of Dalinar finding out and then being performatively Very Tolerant to hide his deep-seated fears of his special-needs kid going out and dating. (I don't think he would actually mind that Rlain's a singer at the end of the day, I think his problem would more be being overprotective of Renatin, seeing as how the next big obstacle he has to overcome appears to be dealing with his sons in a manner that's healthier for their growth as people) Meanwhile Navani will probably be like "Welcome to the family! I'm going to mom the rust out of you, and if you argue then I will mom you more!"

But Edgedancers don't seem to be about fixing big social problems. They're more about immediate support for those in need. Hug at the end of the day when you're depressed, sticking up for the unjustly accused, saving somebody in immediate need. It looks like it's the other orders form different parts of the ecosystem.

WRT. the first bolded part: That's fair. WRT. the second bolded part: I don't really think that's Adolin's role anyway, and it's not really an Edgedancer thing. Like, just as Lift doesn't work to build homeless shelters or found legal charities for the unjustly imprisoned; Adolin doesn't have to be the guy who does the big sweeping reforms, and in fact in OB he recognizes that he would really suck at being that guy. He's the guy who helps people on a small scale while somebody else (Jasnah, especially) is fighting the large-scale fight. And honestly, that's OK. Sometimes, you just need somebody who does small-scale good.

It does seem to for Edgedancers and Skybreakers, too, at a minimum. Lightweavers seem to be the exception with Truths.

Fair! He definitely has I will remember those who have been forgotten (WOK first meeting with Kaladin, blows off meeting to get some darkeyed prostitute home safe; OB saves kid from building while being targeted by a thunderclast because he hears, in the middle of a pitched battle, what might be a whimper from behind him), I will listen to those who have been ignored (WOR throws himself in prison in protest of Kaladin's treatment, is the only noble to immediately believe Kaladin about Amaram; arguably his support for Shallan over her cool alter egos is this mixed with the previous Oath), and when to step back (everything about how he treats Renarin is honestly exactly what Renarin needs precisely because Adolin knows when to step back and let Renarin stand on his own two feet) all down pat. I wonder--how fast can you swear the Oaths? If you've already internalized their messages, can you swear 2-4 all in a row? That seems kind of overpowered, though.

So I was talking in Discord with my college buddies last night, and I wondered--WI Adolin is already a 3rd or even 4th Ideal Edgedancer, but he and Maya aren't able to access their bond properly due to Connection issues stemming from the suspected issue possibly caused by the trapping of BAM in the False Desolation? Going based on known Windrunner oaths, oath 1 is the motto, oath 2 is the specific Order's general purpose, oath 3 is the "follow oath 2 even if you don't want to or if you need to change your behavior to do so properly", oath 4 seems to be the moderation oath ("don't burn yourself out for the Ideal" kinda thing, though it likely could also be "know when to step back"). Adolin already follows these--he sticks up for the little guy when others wouldn't, even when it is a significant personal impact for him (blows off an important war meeting to personally help a prostitute get home safe, throws away what little chance he still had of taking on Sadeas or salvaging the situation AND does something that implicitly comes with a massive loss of face because Kaladin has been imprisoned unjustly), and knows when to step back (he is the only figure in Renarin's life until Bridge 4 shows up who treats Renarin well and with the respect that Renarin needs, which speaks to a degree of self-understanding, interpersonal understanding, and perceptiveness that are necessary IMO for a moderation Ideal). Plus he's spent years deliberately treating, speaking to, and thinking of Maya as an extension of/integral part of his soul and being. And, though he doesn't show it much, he is clearly desperate for the approval of his father, who he idolizes, and shows a number of traits typical of both a Well Done, Son! Guy and a sibling-of-the-special-needs-kid. So I'm thinking that in book 5 he finally cracks, and gets the storms kicked out of him, but then (assuming that BAM/missing Connection theory is correct) BAM is released and he and Maya immediately rocket up to 4th Ideal and proceed to kick the living daylights out of some bad guys. Anyway that's my crack theory of the day, thoughts?

I personally do not comprehend how anyone can not love Best Science Mom. She's a kindhearted stepmother who became such after deciding to move on from her abusive relationship by seizing the initiative and getting together with the much better dude she'd always liked, which she and said other dude did in their late middle age at the earliest, she's brilliant and kind and supportive and bucks tradition because she's sick and tired of it, and I just freaking love her. Also when was the last time you saw a wholesome, gentle romance between two older adults in fiction???

A lot of those tend to be super boring and characterless. And even crazy hacks tend to include at least token non-straight white male characters for diversity points/to gotcha critics these days. Freaking Tom Kratman had a female Latino protagonist in a book he wrote about Evil Lesbian Hillary Clinton being evil, and Tom Kratman thinks that the SS were good guys and the Jews are just sore losers (no, I'm not kidding, that's actually a plot point in a book that he wrote about the SS being heroes who bravely save the world from alien invasion, and yes, somehow that racist moron still gets published). It'd be nice if people would be a little less harsh towards genuine attempts to give healthy and supportive representation for marginalized groups in fiction, though. Even BS's weakest books in this regard (looking at Elantris with all of two female characters who actually matter and a very obviously 2000s approach to women's liberation that's about on the same level as the anvils Tamora Pierce was dropping in the '80s, before she wrote Protector of the Small and created the best female protagonist of any book I've ever read in Kel) at least have interesting, competent, well-written female protagonists (I still like to imagine that the lady who ran the gang in Elantris to protect the Hoed kids getting to be a Cognitive Shadow and being able to watch over her kid from the Cognitive Realm, I really liked her and wish she hadn't died). And considering we're talking about an author who grew up in the 1980s and 1990s in a conservative Plains state, I'm not surprised at all that it took him a while to feel comfortable writing LGBT characters in a respectful manner. And besides, isn't the whole point of the Stormlight Archive that you don't have to be perfect, you just have to genuinely try your best and get better bit by bit as you go?